Need urgent help for fear of ruining my spa

[Son goku]

Please don't yell at me
I don't understand the spa and I relied on this chatgpt and did some actions that at the moment I don't know what to do.

So, after a long time of not using my Hotspring spa, I decided to fill it with water.
I entered the spa, and everything was good, only full of scale on the sides. I decided to put Hydrochloric acid because there is a lot of scales in the water in my town.
It didn't help, there was still limescale and I added and added and I got to the point where I added 3 liters of Hydrochloric acid 32% for a 1900 liter spa which is 502 gallons.

All the scales came off quickly. I arrived within a few hours and PH just plunged and didn't come back up.
I achieved the goal but it is impossible to enter because of the acidity.
I listened to the chatgpt advice and added sodium bicarbonate. I started with 100 grams every few hours I came to the spa and PH just didn't rise, I got to the point where I already added a kilo of sodium bicarbonate and still according to the sticks my PH is low.

I don't know how low it is because I don't have an accurate gauge, but according to the sticks it is below 6.8

what am I doing now? It's been two whole days and I can't raise the PH and don't know what the situation is.
From reading online I understood that when Hydrochloric acid meets Sodium bicarbonate Salt is formed.
I took a glass of water from the spa, put some on my tongue and didn't feel anything. No salinity, no acidity, only hot water at a temperature of 30 degrees Celsius

Please help me I'm afraid I didn't damage my spa 😭😭

[Son goku]

I use the following products in my spa:
Ozonator, Silver Ionizer, Chlorine-Free Oxidizer
My dealer told me not to put chlorine or bromine in my spa because it destroys the internals and the shell. He said that all the products I mentioned above in combination with a Tri-X Ceramic filter provide perfect protection.
This is true? There is no information on these materials here in the forum...
In addition, he told me that the Silver Ionizer needs to be replaced every 4 months, my question is could it be that the hydrochloric acid that I introduced into the system damaged it?

[waterbear]

Is your silver ionizer a cartrige that you replace every 4 months (Nature 2)? You still need chlorine for it's initial start up(read the directions that come with the cartridge.). I have never heard of a spa  being damaged by either chlorine or bromine. I have heard of spas being damaged by peroxide/biguinide sanitizer systems.

To raised you pH get some borax (sodium tetraborate decahydratre or sodium tetraborate pentahydrate). It's often used as a laundry additive. Add about 200 grams and test your pH. repeat as needed. If you can't find that you can use sodium carbonate (washing soda). and add 100 grams at a time. Be aware that the sodium carbonate (often sold in pool/spa stores as pH increaser) will cause your total alkalinity to shoot up very high and make maintaining your pH difficult until you lower it.

[Son goku]

17 minutes ago, waterbear said:

Is your silver ionizer a cartrige that you replace every 4 months (Nature 2)? You still need chlorine for it's initial start up(read the directions that come with the cartridge.). I have never heard of a spa  being damaged by either chlorine or bromine. I have heard of spas being damaged by peroxide/biguinide sanitizer systems.

To raised you pH get some borax (sodium tetraborate decahydratre or sodium tetraborate pentahydrate). It's often used as a laundry additive. Add about 200 grams and test your pH. repeat as needed. If you can't find that you can use sodium carbonate (washing soda). and add 100 grams at a time. Be aware that the sodium carbonate (often sold in pool/spa stores as pH increaser) will cause your total alkalinity to shoot up very high and make maintaining your pH difficult until you lower it.

The product is called: Hot Spring Spas Freshwater Ag+ Continuous Silver Ion Sanitizer 71325 and yes every 4 months I replace it.

Because I was really scared I drained a third of the spa water and refilled it back to the original line.
I measure the PH and Alkalinity and MPS using hotspring test sticks.
I'm going to run out of sticks... how do you recommend I check the values at the spa?
Do you maybe have a word about the process I did with all the hydrochloric acid and baking soda I added? Could I hit the spa? Was it dangerous?

 

[waterbear]

Hot Spring Spas Freshwater Ag+ Continuous Silver Ion Sanitizer is an OEM version of Nature 2 by Zodiac. Silver ions (from silver nitrate) and MPS at elevated temperatures is an effective sanitizer. However, it is recommended to initially shock the water with chlorine on initial install of the cartridge and whenever the water becomes cloudy. @RDspaguy, do you have anything to add about proper use of the N2?

On 7/3/2023 at 2:36 PM, Son goku said:

how do you recommend I check the values at the spa?

Based on your IP address you are in Israel and I am not familiar with what water testing is available there but I would recommend (if available) a Taylor Technologies K-2006 test kit and only test for combined chlorine, which will give you your MPS reading. (MPS tests as combined chlorine). IF the Taylor kit is unavailable then see if LaMotte test kits are available and get a ColorQ test kit. Once again, don't bother testing for free chlorine  but use the combined chlorine test for MPS. These kits will give you much greater precision, which is needed for water balance adjustments. For example, strips have a precision of 40 ppm for TA while these kits will give you a precison of 10 ppm or better. If you can't find these then stick to the Nature2 test strips or get a good 5 way test strip from LaMotte or AquaChek if they are available in your area. Once again, the combined chlorine reading (or total chlorine reading) will give you your MPS level.

On 7/3/2023 at 2:36 PM, Son goku said:

Do you maybe have a word about the process I did with all the hydrochloric acid and baking soda I added?

best procedure would have been to drop the pH to 7.0 and keep it there until the scale has dissolved, then do a water change to lower the calcium hardness to keep the scale from redepositing. This process can take up to a few weeks but is safe. The amount of acid needed to initally drop your pH depends on the starting pH but if you started at a pH of 8.0 (which is high) you would only need about 50 ml of 20 baum Muriatic acid (32% hydrochloric acid) to drop the pH to 7.0 and less if the initial pH is lower for a spa your size. You added 3 liters which dropped the pH dangerously low and could, and probably did, cause damage to the pump and other equipment and your silver cartridge, Be on the lookout for leaks from your pump seals and degradation of o- rings and other rubber like parts. Much depends on how long the pH was dangerously low.

On 7/2/2023 at 2:54 PM, Son goku said:

I listened to the chatgpt advice and added sodium bicarbonate.

chatgpt? You got advice from an AI? It was very bad advice. Baking soda is used to raise TA with minimal impact on pH. Borax will raise pH with minimal impact on TA. Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, pH increaser) will raise pH and also cause a large rise in TA. It is only useful in swimming pools that are sanitized by trichlor, which is very acidic and causes both pH and TA to fall. Borax is probably the best bet for raising pH in a spa, which is not something that is nornally needed since the pH in a spa tends to rise becuase of the accelerated outgassing of CO2 from the increased aeration caused by the spa jets.

[Son goku]

On 7/5/2023 at 5:30 PM, waterbear said:

Hot Spring Spas Freshwater Ag+ Continuous Silver Ion Sanitizer is an OEM version of Nature 2 by Zodiac. Silver ions (from silver nitrate) and MPS at elevated temperatures is an effective sanitizer. However, it is recommended to initially shock the water with chlorine on initial install of the cartridge and whenever the water becomes cloudy. @RDspaguy, do you have anything to add about proper use of the N2?

Based on your IP address you are in Israel and I am not familiar with what water testing is available there but I would recommend (if available) a Taylor Technologies K-2006 test kit and only test for combined chlorine, which will give you your MPS reading. (MPS tests as combined chlorine). IF the Taylor kit is unavailable then see if LaMotte test kits are available and get a ColorQ test kit. Once again, don't bother testing for free chlorine  but use the combined chlorine test for MPS. These kits will give you much greater precision, which is needed for water balance adjustments. For example, strips have a precision of 40 ppm for TA while these kits will give you a precison of 10 ppm or better. If you can't find these then stick to the Nature2 test strips or get a good 5 way test strip from LaMotte or AquaChek if they are available in your area. Once again, the combined chlorine reading (or total chlorine reading) will give you your MPS level.

best procedure would have been to drop the pH to 7.0 and keep it there until the scale has dissolved, then do a water change to lower the calcium hardness to keep the scale from redepositing. This process can take up to a few weeks but is safe. The amount of acid needed to initally drop your pH depends on the starting pH but if you started at a pH of 8.0 (which is high) you would only need about 50 ml of 20 baum Muriatic acid (32% hydrochloric acid) to drop the pH to 7.0 and less if the initial pH is lower for a spa your size. You added 3 liters which dropped the pH dangerously low and could, and probably did, cause damage to the pump and other equipment and your silver cartridge, Be on the lookout for leaks from your pump seals and degradation of o- rings and other rubber like parts. Much depends on how long the pH was dangerously low.

chatgpt? You got advice from an AI? It was very bad advice. Baking soda is used to raise TA with minimal impact on pH. Borax will raise pH with minimal impact on TA. Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, pH increaser) will raise pH and also cause a large rise in TA. It is only useful in swimming pools that are sanitized by trichlor, which is very acidic and causes both pH and TA to fall. Borax is probably the best bet for raising pH in a spa, which is not something that is nornally needed since the pH in a spa tends to rise becuase of the accelerated outgassing of CO2 from the increased aeration caused by the spa jets.

Thank you very much for the detailed answer.
I need to digest and learn a lot of information here.
From a quick read on the internet, both FreshWater AG+ Silver Ionizer and Zodiac 2 New Nature 2 are designed to help maintain water clarity and reduce the need for traditional chemical treatments like chlorine.
But their ingredients are a little different,
Nuture2 uses a combination of minerals, such as silver and copper, to release controlled amounts of sanitizing agents into the water.
whereas FreshWater utilizes only silver ions.
I have only seen a hot spring spa with FreshWater...

I didn't know my IP address was public here xD
I'm not familiar with the types of test kits, there are spa and pool equipment stores but I don't have the energy to start traveling and looking.. I checked eBay/Amazon and the prices are very high for Taylor Technologies K-2006 and LaMotte why do I need these test kits?
There are strips from Ali Express for 3 dollars like this:

 

Are they inaccurate? It's a spa at my house that 90% of the time only I enter.
I don't need precision levels of 9 digits after the decimal point (7.451285366 hahaha)

You are correct that my use of hydrochloric acid was not responsible, I put in a whole liter and after I came back the next day there was still limescale, I said it was probably not enough and added everything else. It may be that only when the PH is really low, the scale starts to decrease, but then there is a risk of damage to the spa.

According to the strips from Ali Express, the initial pH levels of the water were 7.6-7.8
And 50 ml of hydrochloric acid wouldn't do anything, I put a liter and there was still scale on the sides of the spa.
What I do want to point out is that I have had this Hotspring spa for almost 15 years and without a single malfunction!! (There were replacements of filters and things of regular maintenance)
But there wasn't a single glitch! Quality build quality, stable product. You see it's an American product, very satisfied with this purchase.

Yes, my use of chatGPT is excessive, it already chooses for me what to eat for lunch hahahahahahahahahahaha
What do high levels of TA mean? Right now according to my sticks they stand at 80-120 and also the PH in the 7.4 area assuming that these tests are accurate.

[waterbear]

6 hours ago, Son goku said:

Nuture2 uses a combination of minerals, such as silver and copper, to release controlled amounts of sanitizing agents into the water.
whereas FreshWater utilizes only silver ions.
I have only seen a hot spring spa with FreshWater...

Nature2 pool is a silver/copper combination, Nature2 spa is silver nitrate only. The Hotsprings branded one is an identical OEM version of the Nature 2 spa and also made by Zodiac.

6 hours ago, Son goku said:

I didn't know my IP address was public here

Only to Moderators and Admins.

6 hours ago, Son goku said:

I checked eBay/Amazon and the prices are very high for Taylor Technologies K-2006 and LaMotte why do I need these test kits?

Amazon is going to be cheaper than eBay. Test strips do not have the precision needed to balance water. Consider how much you spent on your spa and then ask again if they price of the K-2006 is really too high since a test kit is probably the most important piece of additional equipment needed to maintain your spa.

6 hours ago, Son goku said:

Are they inaccurate?

In a word, yes. While strips can be precise (multiple tests on the same sample will produce the same results) they are not necessarily accurate (the result obtained is the true value).

6 hours ago, Son goku said:

don't need precision levels of 9 digits after the decimal point (7.451285366 hahaha)

no, but you need better precison than +/_ 40 ppm for TA and you can only test for total hardness, not calcium hardness, which is the test you need to determine if your water will scale or not.

7 hours ago, Son goku said:

According to the strips from Ali Express, the initial pH levels of the water were 7.6-7.8

If you are showing me the color chart from the strips you are using then look again, they do not have the precision to determine that the pH is 7.6-7.8, rather that it is in the range of 7.2-7.8 (and I suspect this is the case since most test strips have the same pH scale, which is a very large range for pH testing).

7 hours ago, Son goku said:

You are correct that my use of hydrochloric acid was not responsible,

Using hydrochloric acid in a spa is fine if you have a good test kit with an acid demand test that will tell you how much to add to reach a pH of 7.0 and no lower, You would then maintain that pH with additional acid additions since it will rise as CO2 gases off and the  TA lowers. The reason you had scale is due to a combination of high calcium hardness (NOT total hardness), high pH, and probably high TA. Your strips do not provide the precision for properly monitoring and adjusting these water parameters.

 

7 hours ago, Son goku said:

What do high levels of TA mean?

These posts will give you an understanding of what TA is and what it does and why it's important:

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/

7 hours ago, Son goku said:

Right now according to my sticks they stand at 80-120 and also the PH in the 7.4 area assuming that these tests are accurate.

Your TA is too high, most spas should run at 60-70 ppm or even a bit lower if needed for pH stability. A precison of 10 ppm is really needed for this test, which your strips can't give.

As far as pH, you are guessing, all you can really know is that your pH is somewhere in between 7.2 to 7.8 Be aware that color changes on the strips are not necessarily linear so if you try to interpolate between color samples you are just guessing.

Once again, this is assuming the results are accurate. Strips are not for most tests.

7 hours ago, Son goku said:

What I do want to point out is that I have had this Hotspring spa for almost 15 years and without a single malfunction!!

I would say that both buildup of scale, dropping the pH dangerously low, and then not knowing how to correct that are multiple malfunctions in water care.

[RDspaguy]

Sorry @waterbear, I didn't get an email on your mention.

I like nature2 as a chlorine supplement, best used with ozone, and am not a fan of mps even as a shock. It's primary benefits in my opinion are as a backup for when your chlorine chemistry isn't perfect. In a spa, it seldom is. 

The whole .5ppm thing has to be interpreted, as it is a sales gimmik. What it means is your chlorine can go AS LOW AS .5ppm and remain sanitary, but remember that an fc of .5ppm is gone before you get comfy in your motosagge seat, so your water no longer meets the minimum fc level during or after use, until you have raised fc enough to destroy any excess contaminants remaining in the water AND provide a .5ppm residual. This provides little to no protection from direct, bather-to-bather contamination without additional chlorine, but can be quite effective at destroying those contaminants over the typical 23 hours between uses. 

The nature2 destroys contaminants, even chlorine resistant ones, and possibly prevents biofilm, but VERY slowly compared to chlorine. What it does do a bit more quickly is interfere with cell division in single-celled organisms by hardening the cell wall, which eventually kills it but acts as birth control in the meantime. This results in a situation where, if you don't add quite enough chlorine for the contaminant level, it won't be a cloudy, stinking mess the next day. Also helpful during extended periods of non-use, such as a vacation or such, but it cannot in itself make a spa sanitary, you still need an oxidizer (chlorine, mps, or bromine). Think of it as a product that keeps a clean spa clean, not as a protection against introduced contaminants.

[waterbear]

9 hours ago, RDspaguy said:

you still need an oxidizer (chlorine, mps, or bromine)

bromine is not compatible with Nature2 because of the source of silver ions. Spa Frog is since it uses a different chemical to provide the silver ions.