Bullfrog A7 2013 Model Price Check Please!

[Laenini]

I've been out spa shopping as my 4 year old CalSpas tub was heavily damaged in a hail storm and needs to be replaced as a result. I have looked at a ton of tubs! I've also seen a ton of prices! I hate that feeling that I may not be getting the best price possible on something purely based on a salesman's whims. I do have a deal on the table with Bullfrog for an A7 2013 model (they changed their jetpack design for 2013). This would be their floor model they are willing to sell as it was one of the first made with the new jetpacks. Since this tub was made another control button has been added to the top of the tubs that are produced now. They want their floor model to match the product that is shipping from the factory, so they are willing to sell this floor model. Its been in use on their salefloor for probably 6 months and would come to me with a full warranty.

The A7 model is a 7' by 7' tub that seats 7 adults, and it includes 5 jetpack seats. The deal is for tub, steps, cover, lifter, and delivery. This tub has 2 pumps. As it sits now there is no ozonator. Since I prefer to use a 3 step bromine sanitation process they have agreed to install an ozonator. The tub was stickered for full price at something like $14,500. They had a sale label on this tub to get a factory new version in desired colors for $12,500.00. But after talking to them they offered to sell me the actual tub on their floor for $10,249.00.

I'm thinking there might still be room for them to come down. Am I right? Should I take this deal as it is now? Should I try to work them down lower?

Any and all advice is appreciated!

[Loopcity]

That is a good deal for all that is included. I would be very happy with that price.

[Roger]

That's to much money for a tub that's not from one of the high end manufacturers.

[Loopcity]

I'm guessing that you have not seen a Bullfrog in the last few years. This absolutely is a "high end" tub. As a matter of fact, I would purchase this tub over pretty much any other. The 2013 Bullfrogs are amazing. Go see one for yourself before you write them off. They are the most innovative design in the industry.

They are made in the USA, unlike many other "high end" tubs. They don't use diverter valves, so you can operate all of the jets at full power simultaneously. The variety of jetting is second to none and fully customizable. The jets are extremely therapeutic. The warranty is as good or better than other tubs. Energy efficiency is as good or better than any other. If stereos are your thing, they have a great system that is very innovative. The JetPak design is low profile which creates more interior space than other spas with the same overall dimensions, so you get more tub for your money. I could go on and on. I suggest actually seeing and testing one before you write them off.

[Roger]

I'm guessing that you have not seen a Bullfrog in the last few years. This absolutely is a "high end" tub. As a matter of fact, I would purchase this tub over pretty much any other. The 2013 Bullfrogs are amazing. Go see one for yourself before you write them off. They are the most innovative design in the industry.

They are made in the USA, unlike many other "high end" tubs. They don't use diverter valves, so you can operate all of the jets at full power simultaneously. The variety of jetting is second to none and fully customizable. The jets are extremely therapeutic. The warranty is as good or better than other tubs. Energy efficiency is as good or better than any other. If stereos are your thing, they have a great system that is very innovative. The JetPak design is low profile which creates more interior space than other spas with the same overall dimensions, so you get more tub for your money. I could go on and on. I suggest actually seeing and testing one before you write them off.

Your entitled to your opinion. I have seen a new one. I have also seen almost all of the high end manufacturers new tubs. I find Bullfrog gimmicky and their reputation in my area makes them middle of the road in my opinion.

[Laenini]

That's to much money for a tub that's not from one of the high end manufacturers.

That is sort of my impression. They have themselves priced with the top of the line spas, but they are still the new kid on the block. So long term reliability is still not fully proven. Their product is innovative and to me the greatest selling point is the fact that its infinitely upgradable. As an owner's needs and wants change they can just upgrade jet packs without having to upgrade the whole spa. But that is only really valuable if the whole spa has a long enough functional life that it is worth upgrading jet packs.

I also find it somewhat concerning that they have remodeled their jet packs I believe at least twice over their 14 or so years in business, and the different versions of their jet pack designs are not interchangeable. So if one bought a 2012 model tub from them for example, the style of pack in that tub has a completely different hook up and snap in design than the spas coming out of their factory today. If you read their warranty they only guarantee availability of jet packs in your tub's design for 12 months after purchase. So that upgradability of jet packs totally loses its attractiveness if it’s possible that they might quit making your style of pack at any point after the first year.

Also, there is no sound system on this tub which obviously isn't a deal breaker to me. But still, it’s a nice feature to have just the same and at that price, I kind of feel like it should have that feature. What I am mostly concerned about though is the fairness of the deal being offered to me. I suspect if I was a more talented negotiator I could get that same tub brand new out of the factory at that price without having to take the floor model. In fact, another poster recently shared the price he was being offered for a brand new version of the same size but different seat configuration tub (his is a 552 model, the floor model we are considering for comparison purposes could be called a 572 as in Bullfrog’s naming system the first number is the number of jet packs, the second number is the number of seats, and the third is the number of pumps on the tub) and I think he was at about $600 less than the price this floor model is being offered to me at. And while his tub is a new 2012 model, ours is a 2013 floor model that has been used in shop for 6 months.

I would love to know what would be a good price on the A7 new from the factory.That would then help me guage if the deal being offered for the floor model is a good deal or not. I suspect a savy negotiator could get the brand new from the factory tub at the price I'm being offered to take the floor model. I think that is what I'm really hung up on. Does anyone have any thoughts for me?

[Dr. Spa]

I gotta voice my opinion on Bullfrog. I love their jet pack idea! I however don't particularly care for the marketing aspect of telling customers they can change packs anytime in the future to meet their needs. Realistically, I don't think anyone has ever done this (ok, I'm sure there's probably a couple that have). More realistically, it allows you to choose the jets and configuration of such when you initially purchase the spa. Personally, I think this is AWESOME! For 2013 they have 16 different jet packs. This makes for hundreds of different possible combinations in a spa. Other than possibly changing the face of an individual jet to change how it functions, how many other manufacturers can or will make changes to the overall jet configuration for you?

Someone said they've been around for 14 years? I think that's more than long enough to prove they're here to stay.

[Laenini]

I gotta voice my opinion on Bullfrog. I love their jet pack idea! I however don't particularly care for the marketing aspect of telling customers they can change packs anytime in the future to meet their needs. Realistically, I don't think anyone has ever done this (ok, I'm sure there's probably a couple that have). More realistically, it allows you to choose the jets and configuration of such when you initially purchase the spa. Personally, I think this is AWESOME! For 2013 they have 16 different jet packs. This makes for hundreds of different possible combinations in a spa. Other than possibly changing the face of an individual jet to change how it functions, how many other manufacturers can or will make changes to the overall jet configuration for you?

Someone said they've been around for 14 years? I think that's more than long enough to prove they're here to stay.

I agree, at 14 years Bullfrog is a company that is here to stay. I believe they have some sort of parent company relationship with Jacuzzi and their CEO has 20 years of history in management with Jacuzzi and Sundance which also points to them being a company that is positioned to succeed. What I meant when I said that their longevity is yet to be proven is this: their marketing cornerstone claim is that Bullfrog owners through mixing and matching their jet packs have an infinately upgradable spa. As the owner's needs change or new jet technology emerges a Bullfrog owner can update their spa through purchasing a $400 jet pack rather than a $10,000 new spa. That sounds like an obvious advantage as it would allow the owner to get many more useful years out of their tub. But that advantage is dependent upon the tub standing up to the test of time over that potential longer lifespan. I don't know if anyone has any numbers regarding what percentage of those first tubs sold 14 years ago are still viable tubs in current use. And since the jet pack design has changed at least twice I believe, I don't know if the owners of those first run tubs from 14 years ago are able to still get jet packs that fit their tub.

Personally, I have a degenerative spine disease that is only going to get worse for me as the years pass. Right now most of my pain issues are focused in the upper back and neck region, but with the nature of my disease that could certainly change. So right now I would be inclined to purchase jet packs that address those upper back and neck regions, but who's to say that 5 years from now my lower back might be more painful and I might welcome the chance to purchase new jet packs that target the lower back. The viability of that potential future purchase is the wildcard in this equation that I just don't know how to gauge.

[Dr. Spa]

It's not unusual for people in this industry, or any other for that matter, to leave one company and go work for the competition.

Since you couldn't possibly change the jet layout of ANY other spa, at least with Bullfrog there's always the possibility.

[Loopcity]

They have only changed the jetpak design once since inception in '95 (almost 20 years ago). They still do and always will continue to offer the original jetpaks. You misread about availability guarantee. They say that they cannot guarantee the acrylic color of a new jetpak beyond one year because acrylic manufacturers will discontinue colors over time. You can come into my store right now and buy a jetpak for your 1995 Bullfrog. The new design is the first real significant change, but they continue to use the jetpak 1 in their entry level tubs. They will always come out with new jetpaks for the old design as well as the new.

While it is nice to be able to change and upgrade your jetpaks, there are other great benefits to the design. It eliminates a majority of the plumbing found in a spa. As water passes through the plumbing and 90 degree elbows, jet power is reduced due to friction. This is highlighted by the fact that most hot tubs use diverter valves to compensate. Bullfrog allows you to run all of the jets on high power simultaneously. Less plumbing also means more insulation underneath and less potential for leaks. The jetpak design also reduces the number of holes drilled in your shell, increasing it's structural integrity and reducing potential leak points. Also, should you ever have an issue in the jetpak, rather than wait for a repairman to come to your house, you can just ask for a new jetpak and swap it out in 10 seconds without the use of tools! Pretty cool.

Reliability has been proven to me. Of the 3 brands that I sell, they are the most reliable. We have very few warranty calls. They use Balboa electronics and aqua-flo pumps, both known for reliability. I have sold other major brands over the years and Bullfrog is as or more reliable than any of them.

I could go on and on as I am a huge fan of Bullfrog, but I will spare you my rants. I really do consider them the best hot tub available.

[Roger]

They have only changed the jetpak design once since inception in '95 (almost 20 years ago). They still do and always will continue to offer the original jetpaks. You misread about availability guarantee. They say that they cannot guarantee the acrylic color of a new jetpak beyond one year because acrylic manufacturers will discontinue colors over time. You can come into my store right now and buy a jetpak for your 1995 Bullfrog. The new design is the first real significant change, but they continue to use the jetpak 1 in their entry level tubs. They will always come out with new jetpaks for the old design as well as the new.

While it is nice to be able to change and upgrade your jetpaks, there are other great benefits to the design. It eliminates a majority of the plumbing found in a spa. As water passes through the plumbing and 90 degree elbows, jet power is reduced due to friction. This is highlighted by the fact that most hot tubs use diverter valves to compensate. Bullfrog allows you to run all of the jets on high power simultaneously. Less plumbing also means more insulation underneath and less potential for leaks. The jetpak design also reduces the number of holes drilled in your shell, increasing it's structural integrity and reducing potential leak points. Also, should you ever have an issue in the jetpak, rather than wait for a repairman to come to your house, you can just ask for a new jetpak and swap it out in 10 seconds without the use of tools! Pretty cool.

Reliability has been proven to me. Of the 3 brands that I sell, they are the most reliable. We have very few warranty calls. They use Balboa electronics and aqua-flo pumps, both known for reliability. I have sold other major brands over the years and Bullfrog is as or more reliable than any of them.

I could go on and on as I am a huge fan of Bullfrog, but I will spare you my rants. I really do consider them the best hot tub available.

A majority of the plumbing but just a little? From what I have seen there is less plumbing but not much and a properly engineered tub will have more than enough power at every jet to create a more than great feel at the jets.

All of the brands I have seen and tested can be run with the diverter one way, the other way or in the middle to create an infinite number of possibility's. Diverters are good.

More insulation and less leaks. Around here they run about the same if not more to operate than every other tub. They cost more in cold weather and less in hot weather. And if they cost 30 bucks a month average than they are within a few bucks of about 30 brands. Here we go with the leaks again. 98% of the leaks I fix are in the equipment bay. And most high end tubs never leak in the plumbing.

The structural integrity of the shell and frame of all the high end tubs has been engineered to death to never fail for the life of the tub. Bullfrog is only equaling the middle of the road competition.

Because you sell them I expect nothing less from you than to voice your opinion. But don't go over the top and try and sell them as the best. There are other opinions out there and some of those opinions may be more viable than yours. And telling owners to do there own warranty work is not such a good idea.

[Loopcity]

Diverters are used because there is not enough power to operate all of the jets on high power at the same time. Why else would you use one? WIth a diverter, you are choosing which seats get full power, but never all of them. This is a simple matter of physics. There is 70% to 90% less plumbing in a Bullfrog, not just a little less. As water passes through plumbing and around elbows, power is lost due to friction. You can demonstrate this by hooking a 10' garden hose to your spigot and turning it on. Make note of the water flow out the end. Now try it with a 100' hose. The difference is significant.

There are a couple of pictures out there that show the plumbing in a Bullfrog next to another modern hot tub. It's a pretty impressive image, but for some reason it won't let me post from photobucket.

Also, $30 month to operate in your area? I find that hard to believe. Have you hooked a meter up to a Bullfrog and compared it to other tubs? They are extremely energy efficient.

As to leaks, I have seen quite a few "high end" tubs with leaks in the plumbing in the foam. I sell quite a few spas every year to people who have experienced the headache of a leak in the foam and really appreciate the jetpak design because of it. As much as some people want to pretend that it rarely happens, I see quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. I also see quite a few wood framed hot tubs falling apart as we are pulling them out to replace with a new one. Most manufacturers don't even treat the wood, or will only treat the wood at the base. Wood frames rot. If you are arguing that they don't, I'm not even sure how to respond. I'll let the reader decide which one sounds accurate. Please note that I am not talking about the cabinet. Very few companies still use wood for the cabinet, but the interior frame is made from wood in many brands.

I am expressing my opinion that they are a great spa and I think that their design is the best. That doesn't mean that there are not other great brands. My point in posting is because I continue to see people with little to no experience with Bullfrog spas in the last 7-8 years say that they are middle of the road. This is simply not true. Maybe they were back then (I'm not saying they were), but the new Bullfrogs will stand side by side with any other "high-end" tub out there. I firmly believe this.

I found another pretty cool benefit to the jetpak design recently. Due to the low profile nature of the new manifolds, you get much more interior space than comparably sized tubs from other manufacturers. For instance:

Take the Hotspring Pulse at 7'5" x 7'5" x 38" and compare it to the Bullfrog A7 at 7'4" x 7'4" x 36". Notice that the Bullfrog is a little smaller. Now notice that the Hotspring is 380 gallons the Bullfrog is 434 gallons.

The Jetpak design is revolutionary. It makes sense. There are many benefits to it. I'm not saying that it is the only good design, I'm just making sure that they are accurately portrayed. After 17 years in this industry, and having sold multiple other "high-end" brands, Bullfrog is my favorite, hands down. They should at least be in the discussion for anyone shopping for a top of the line spa.

I hope that I don't come across as argumentative. I think that it is great that people can come here and get different opinions and points of view, but I will definitely speak up when someone calls Bullfrog a mediocre hot tub.

[Loopcity]

. And telling owners to do there own warranty work is not such a good idea.

Forgot to address this. I'm not sure where you got the impression that we would tell customers to do their own warranty work. I simply stated that if a jet were to ever leak, the customer could literally walk into the store and have a replacement jetpak in minutes without the use of tools. If a Bullfrog fails within the warranty period, a technician is sent out to fix it. After the warranty is over, some customers may decide to avoid paying a technician and could literally just bring a jetpak in and swap it out having never touched a tool.. Would you like to describe the process of fixing a leaking jet in any other tub?

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand your disdain for this brand when it appears that you have not even seen the modern ones.

[Roger]

Diverters are used because there is not enough power to operate all of the jets on high power at the same time. Why else would you use one? WIth a diverter, you are choosing which seats get full power, but never all of them. This is a simple matter of physics. There is 70% to 90% less plumbing in a Bullfrog, not just a little less. As water passes through plumbing and around elbows, power is lost due to friction. You can demonstrate this by hooking a 10' garden hose to your spigot and turning it on. Make note of the water flow out the end. Now try it with a 100' hose. The difference is significant.

There are a couple of pictures out there that show the plumbing in a Bullfrog next to another modern hot tub. It's a pretty impressive image, but for some reason it won't let me post from photobucket.

Also, $30 month to operate in your area? I find that hard to believe. Have you hooked a meter up to a Bullfrog and compared it to other tubs? They are extremely energy efficient.

As to leaks, I have seen quite a few "high end" tubs with leaks in the plumbing in the foam. I sell quite a few spas every year to people who have experienced the headache of a leak in the foam and really appreciate the jetpak design because of it. As much as some people want to pretend that it rarely happens, I see quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. I also see quite a few wood framed hot tubs falling apart as we are pulling them out to replace with a new one. Most manufacturers don't even treat the wood, or will only treat the wood at the base. Wood frames rot. If you are arguing that they don't, I'm not even sure how to respond. I'll let the reader decide which one sounds accurate. Please note that I am not talking about the cabinet. Very few companies still use wood for the cabinet, but the interior frame is made from wood in many brands.

I am expressing my opinion that they are a great spa and I think that their design is the best. That doesn't mean that there are not other great brands. My point in posting is because I continue to see people with little to no experience with Bullfrog spas in the last 7-8 years say that they are middle of the road. This is simply not true. Maybe they were back then (I'm not saying they were), but the new Bullfrogs will stand side by side with any other "high-end" tub out there. I firmly believe this.

I found another pretty cool benefit to the jetpak design recently. Due to the low profile nature of the new manifolds, you get much more interior space than comparably sized tubs from other manufacturers. For instance:

Take the Hotspring Pulse at 7'5" x 7'5" x 38" and compare it to the Bullfrog A7 at 7'4" x 7'4" x 36". Notice that the Bullfrog is a little smaller. Now notice that the Hotspring is 380 gallons the Bullfrog is 434 gallons.

The Jetpak design is revolutionary. It makes sense. There are many benefits to it. I'm not saying that it is the only good design, I'm just making sure that they are accurately portrayed. After 17 years in this industry, and having sold multiple other "high-end" brands, Bullfrog is my favorite, hands down. They should at least be in the discussion for anyone shopping for a top of the line spa.

I hope that I don't come across as argumentative. I think that it is great that people can come here and get different opinions and points of view, but I will definitely speak up when someone calls Bullfrog a mediocre hot tub.

I have seen the modern ones and I have no disdain for Bullfrog. When the words from a sales manual are typed into a post no matter what the brand I respond. Everything you said can be refuted but there is really no point.

I can see the amp draw on the pumps and heater and I have seen the insulation scheme. I can conclude that like 10 or so other brands about how much it will cost to operate and unless you tell me and show me the data where you metered one in Northern Minnesota. Then I guarantee you 30 bucks a month average is about right. I have professional relationships with independent and non independent techs all across this state. Do you think we don't share information? A good tech has to be a good salesman also. Or he's not a good tech. And we need to learn as much as we can about our product. And guess what? All brands are our product.

And you keep assuming I haven't seen one. If your in Minnesota MPLS/STP area then I may have visited your store or talked to your tech/techs.

Once again, a properly designed hot tub and diverter is in most cases a positive thing on a tub. There may be those that don't agree but you don't have to, there are those that do. If you center a diverter and there is to much power still to be comfortable and you have to adjust jets or motor speed to get it right then is a diverter bad? With it installed on a properly designed hot tub you have more adjustment possibility's than those without. That's simple you don't have to be an engineer to figure that out.

Ive seen plenty of leaks in the foam also. About 1 out of every 30-40 repairs. And even in the foam leaks are easy for a seasoned tech. I have been messin with this stuff for over 25 years.

I have also disposed of many many wood framed tubs. Some 4-6 year old economy tubs, 8-10 year old middle of the road tubs to 25-30 year old high end tubs. The wood frame is never the cause of the tubs disposal. Old and not cost effective to repair is. It needs a pump and control box and the jets and plumbing are brittle, oh and there is some rot in the corner. I can fix it for 1500-2500 bucks or you can upgrade to a better, newer, more energy efficient modern tub. If your Bullfrog lasts 20 years it will need disposal plastic, metal or wood. Never seen one more than a few years old so....... Oh and low end and some middle of the road manufacturers don't treat the wood. High end does or seals it in the cabinet and designs it to last the life of the tub. Unless you park your tub in a slew.

I could go on and on with each point you made but sigh.............

Here, Bullfrog makes a fine tub. Not my first choice (or second or third or fourth, 5, 6, maybe closer to 7-8) But not my first choice. Feel better?

By the way I just replaced some wood framing on a 2005 Cal Spa that sits in my garage purring like a kitten. Took me an hour or so to cut 4 new frame pieces and fit them in. I got the tub for free. I put 2 new pumps in it instead of the double that was in it. I had retrofitted a new control about 4 years ago. So the pumps hooked up easy. I hate Cal Spa

[dietcoker]

Hi, new here. Just got a bullfrog a7. I see some negative here. I do my research, I found that the BF contains no wood, all others hi and low end do. that means rot. the 2 pumps are 2.5 horse at continuous running. so many try to fool you with the bhp, initial torque measurement BREAK HORSE POWER.BHP is twice continuous hp. E.G. 1 motor 2bhp=1hp 2motors 4bhp= 1hp each.. 2.5 is a lot of pumping power. more that others I looked at in 3 months of research. No diverters on these, full power, 1 pump for the left and one for the right. Jet packs can be switched, and the jet pack itself has individual shutoffs for the jets on the pack at once. You can put all the power of one pump to one jet pack, cant hardly stay in the seat so much power, and the jet pack interchangeability, lets you put a jet pack you love on a higher or lower seat for best results and each jet on each jet pack can be adjusted, can't do that with any other brand. 5 year parts and labor, most others were 3. life time on the tub enclosure. Pan on bottom seals the unit from bugs, mice and what ever else will crawl inside the hot tubs without a bottom seal. 90% less plumbing, huge reduction in leak points. leaks are the majority of the complaints I gleaned from my readings.

spa was 12 grand on sale 93 hundred, included cover, lifter, stairs, ozone generator, 100.00 chemical starter kit, delivery and setup, (not electrical, I did that)

final cost, out the door, 9645.00

I think 15 years in business is long enough to have a proven product. as for the night mares and lemons, show me any product of any kind soup to nuts that doesn't have them. nothing gets 5 stars all the time for every thing. Just my humble opinion.