Pump Suctions - Hotspring

[Chris H]

Hello All,

I wanted to get everyone riled up this morning and tell everyone that Hotspring Spas do follow the ANSI standard for suctions fittings. Now, I will obviously be getting a response from Jim the Jim so I decided to state my thoughts first.

Jim the Jim,

I was reading your "fill in your adjective here" site this past weekend and I came across some commentary on some of ANSI standards that you say Hotspring does not follow.

I wanted to comment on the ANSI section 8.2.2 stating “A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.”

Hotspring has two suction outlets for each jet pump and the suction system is on two separate vertical walls as per the ANSI standard. The standard states that vertical walls can be used, which Hotspring has been doing effectively for well over 10 years. I guess it is as simple as apple pie.

Chris

[Chas]

I don't know why I am getting into this: it always ends up in childish name-calling. However, since this time it was started by a poster who generally remains calm and has proven to have a keen grasp on the truth...

Chris, as long as we are stirring up this hornet's nest, we might as well give our best shot out of the gate. HotSpring does NOT follow ANSI standards for suction fittings. HotSpring EXCEEDS the ANSI suggestions. They have NO suction fittings in the bathing area at all. NO suction fittings beats SOME suction fittings hands down when talking about safety.

HS runs all the water through a group of filters, and those filters offer hudreds of planes, walls and so forth. They also are impossible to get stuck on. Even if you take out the filter, there is a tall plastic tube with hundreds of little holes all over it: again impossible to get stuck on.

Now to make things work better and add yet another layer of safety, all of this is set into a separate box behind a floating weir.

Oh - and the standpipes are glued in place, though you can remove them if you are very strong or have a tool in your hand. Children would never break the bond on them.

Now, by comparison: there are many tubs out there which do not have a standpipe inside/under the filter. On these units, running the pumps with the filters out could cause a serious problem. But if you look at suction-related tragedies, they don't happen in Portable or Self-Contained tubs. They happen in pools, in-ground spas, and the huge majority of them happen because somebody had broken or removed a safety device, cover, grate or other important part of the system. Yes, there are some accidents which take place in pools/spas which were built before certain standards were in place, but those - again - are not portable self-contained tubs, they are usually home pools but especially commercial pools and spas which can have huge pumps plumbed to a SINGLE point of suction.

For shoppers out there who are reading this and are suddenly concerned about a safety issue, let me say that simply sticking with a tub which is UL listed assures you of a safe suction system. ETL listing is the equal to UL since they use the very same ANSI/UL standard. To ease your mind, simply go to the ETL or UL website (HS uses ETL) and simply verify that the tub you are looking at is listed.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Here is a typical Hot Spring spa with a single area in the tub with a single suction draw on each pump. This particular spa is worse than the single pump spas, because they draw all the water from TWO PUMPS INTO ONE SUCTION INLET. That is pretty blatent.

To follow the ANSI/UL the spa would need to have two separate filter housings on a separate plane or more than three feet apart. A single area of suction is that.

It is clear as can be that this spa violates the ANSI safety standards.

[Chas]

Ah. Now I can see why you go around attempting to slam this product all the time. You don't get it!

Sorry Jim, but this spa is ETL listed using the ANSI/UL standard. It wouldn't be if it had unsafe suctions. Let me try once again to clear it up for you: having NO suctions in the bather area is far safer than having them at all, let alone many of them.

And as for having one area of suction, you are again wrong: there are three or more inlets on that grey wall between the filter area and the spa area. The sliding door and two vents. BUT, waterflow into the filter area is strictly under the flow of gravity, not pump-driven.

Shoppers: I and many others have tried to explain this simple fact to Jim over and over for years. Yet he keeps coming back and posting incorrect data trying to make this very safe and effective design look bad and his design look good. Next time you are in a HotSpring Portable Spa store, ask them to run a Grandee, Envoy or Vista (More powerful pumps for a better demonstration) and then put your hand in the filter area and TRY to get stuck on anything.

Then take out one or all of the filters and try again. Finally, shut off the pumps and try to take out the standpipes. They are threaded in place but a thread lock is applied.

[SpaMan]

Ah. Now I can see why you go around attempting to slam this product all the time. You don't get it!

Sorry Jim, but this spa is ETL listed using the ANSI/UL standard. It wouldn't be if it had unsafe suctions. Let me try once again to clear it up for you: having NO suctions in the bather area is far safer than having them at all, let alone many of them.

And as for having one area of suction, you are again wrong: there are three or more inlets on that grey wall between the filter area and the spa area. The sliding door and two vents. BUT, waterflow into the filter area is strictly under the flow of gravity, not pump-driven.

Shoppers: I and many others have tried to explain this simple fact to Jim over and over for years. Yet he keeps coming back and posting incorrect data trying to make this very safe and effective design look bad and his design look good. Next time you are in a HotSpring Portable Spa store, ask them to run a Grandee, Envoy or Vista (More powerful pumps for a better demonstration) and then put your hand in the filter area and TRY to get stuck on anything.

Then take out one or all of the filters and try again. Finally, shut off the pumps and try to take out the standpipes. They are threaded in place but a thread lock is applied.

I honestly made a trip to the local dealer last spring to see first hand what Jim was talking about and Chas of course you are right the standpipes are affixed and there is absolutely no danger. However I did notice that Hotspring is listed with the ETL, and still no listing on those jumbled of a mess he calls spas. So we know where the dangers may lie!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I honestly made a trip to the local dealer last spring to see first hand what Jim was talking about and Chas of course you are right the standpipes are affixed and there is absolutely no danger. However I did notice that Hotspring is listed with the ETL, and still no listing on those jumbled of a mess he calls spas. So we know where the dangers may lie!

This is at the heart of the matter SpaMan. Jim is gripping that his product is not UL/ETL listed and wants to bring a major spa manufacturer down to his level so he can say "SEE, they're not UL/ETL listed either so it must not matter that mine isn't".

Unfortunately, Jim can't find another spa out there that is not UL/ETL listed so he's on his own taking the chance of selling them to owners and running into issues later.

[Chris H]

Jim wrote:

"Here is a typical Hot Spring spa with a single area in the tub with a single suction draw on each pump. This particular spa is worse than the single pump spas, because they draw all the water from TWO PUMPS INTO ONE SUCTION INLET. That is pretty blatent."

Chris responds:

Hotspring draws water in one AREA of the spa not one inlet. Drawing water in one AREA of the spa does not mean drawing water in one inlet. Drawing water in one area does not violate ANSI standards. Each Hotspring jet pump has two inlets. The standard does not state how far apart the vertical inlets that Hotspring utilize need to be.

Jim wrote:

"To follow the ANSI/UL the spa would need to have two separate filter housings on a separate plane or more than three feet apart. A single area of suction is that."

Chris responds:

The comment is incorrect. Read the standard. It states that two suction outlets shall be provided per pump. Hotspring uses two per jet pump (See Chas’ picture). The standard then goes on to state; suction outlets may be separated by a minimum of 3 feet OR located on two planes.

For example ANSI then goes on to state: one outlet can be on the bottom and one outlet can be on the vertical wall OR both can be located on two vertical walls. Hotspring uses two vertical walls. The vertical walls are those things that the filters are covering.

The standard at no time states how far apart the vertical walls should be. The standard only states that a manufacturer can use them and still be certified.

Jim wrote:

"It is clear as can be that this spa violates the ANSI safety standards."

Chris responds:

It is clear to everyone but you that Hotspring follow the standards.

[Chris H]

Bump...

Chas thanks for the compliment up above.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Hello All,

I wanted to get everyone riled up this morning and tell everyone that Hotspring Spas do follow the ANSI standard for suctions fittings. Now, I will obviously be getting a response from Jim the Jim so I decided to state my thoughts first.

Jim the Jim,

I was reading your "fill in your adjective here" site this past weekend and I came across some commentary on some of ANSI standards that you say Hotspring does not follow.

I wanted to comment on the ANSI section 8.2.2 stating “A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.”

Hotspring has two suction outlets for each jet pump and the suction system is on two separate vertical walls as per the ANSI standard. The standard states that vertical walls can be used, which Hotspring has been doing effectively for well over 10 years. I guess it is as simple as apple pie.

Chris

And how many brands of hot tubs did I put up to show you? How stupid your pride and ego make you. You are not even qualified to talk on this subject. The picture below shows one pipe going to one filter housing in less that a foot of each other and on the same plane.

You just told the world how stupid you are. The biggest problem for you is that I don't even think like you do.

I got into this business because I wanted to do something good for the world. I don't care about money, because if you attach yoruself to money, you become like you. All you think about is in terms of money and because of your perspective, that is what you think I do. We tend to judge others as if others think like we do.

You have been taught that money is everything and it is apparent in all of your writings.

[Chris H]

Jim the Jim wrote: And how many brands of hot tubs did I put up to show you? How stupid your pride and ego make you. You are not even qualified to talk on this subject. The picture below shows one pipe going to one filter housing in less that a foot of each other and on the same plane.

Chris responds: Do you think I counted? Actually, the diagram shows the jet pump having two suctions on a vertical plane as required by the standards you continuously post. The second pump shown in the diagram is the circulation pump that pumps out 10 gallons a minute.

In regards to the circulation pump, the ANSI standard that you continuously quote is flawed. It is flawed because using common sense, and assuming that a jet pump pumps 50-100 gallons a minute and requires 2 suctions, why would a circulation pump that pumps 10 gallons a minute also need two suctions? I would think, because of the gallons per minute that the circulation pumps draws, 2 suctions are not necessary. My guess is there is an addendum to the ANSI standards that discuss the gallons per minute necessary for 2 suctions.

Also, on Sundance's 700 series spas they use one suction for the 10 gallon per minute circulation pump.

Jim the Jim wrote: You just told the world how stupid you are. The biggest problem for you is that I don't even think like you do.

Chris responds: I guess that is your opinion.

Jim the Jim wrote: I got into this business because I wanted to do something good for the world. I don't care about money, because if you attach yoruself to money, you become like you. All you think about is in terms of money and because of your perspective, that is what you think I do. We tend to judge others as if others think like we do.

Chris responds: Use spell check, because you spelled ‘yourself’ wrong. What does this have to do with this topic?

Jim the Jim wrote: You have been taught that money is everything and it is apparent in all of your writings.

Chris responds: What does this have to do with this topic?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim the Jim wrote: And how many brands of hot tubs did I put up to show you? How stupid your pride and ego make you. You are not even qualified to talk on this subject. The picture below shows one pipe going to one filter housing in less that a foot of each other and on the same plane.

Chris responds: Do you think I counted? Actually, the diagram shows the jet pump having two suctions on a vertical plane as required by the standards you continuously post. The second pump shown in the diagram is the circulation pump that pumps out 10 gallons a minute.

In regards to the circulation pump, the ANSI standard that you continuously quote is flawed. It is flawed because using common sense, and assuming that a jet pump pumps 50-100 gallons a minute and requires 2 suctions, why would a circulation pump that pumps 10 gallons a minute also need two suctions? I would think, because of the gallons per minute that the circulation pumps draws, 2 suctions are not necessary. My guess is there is an addendum to the ANSI standards that discuss the gallons per minute necessary for 2 suctions.

Also, on Sundance's 700 series spas they use one suction for the 10 gallon per minute circulation pump.

Jim the Jim wrote: You just told the world how stupid you are. The biggest problem for you is that I don't even think like you do.

Chris responds: I guess that is your opinion.

Jim the Jim wrote: I got into this business because I wanted to do something good for the world. I don't care about money, because if you attach yoruself to money, you become like you. All you think about is in terms of money and because of your perspective, that is what you think I do. We tend to judge others as if others think like we do.

Chris responds: Use spell check, because you spelled ‘yourself’ wrong. What does this have to do with this topic?

Jim the Jim wrote: You have been taught that money is everything and it is apparent in all of your writings.

Chris responds: What does this have to do with this topic?

Chris; You are really stupid on anything technical. I would stick with things you can understand, whatever that is? What is your occupation?

[spa Dr.]

Chris; You are really stupid on anything technical. I would stick with things you can understand, whatever that is? What is your occupation?

I'm sorry JIm but Chris is right. no I'm not sorry. Chris and every one else you continually berate are right jim. Hot spring is my biggest competitor and they make a "super high end" product. I sell D-1, Marquis, and clearwater spas on the same floor. we average about 100 spas per year each on the D-1 and Marquis, the Clearwater however are about 10 per year. When a customer ask about Clearwater I am blatantly honest about lack of insulation (thermal barrier), noise (steel frame) and jet/pump ratio. some people just want 111 jets. the real reason that they are still on the floor is to show customers first hand the difference between a Quality built reliable spa and what everybody else sells. In my market I have COLMAN, MASTER, ARCTIC, VITA, EMERALD, ARTESIAN, SUNDANCE, COAST, HYDRO, TIGER RIVER(I know), out of all these competitor HOT SPRING is the one I am the most concerned with.

Ihave been a service-tech for nine years jim, thats a long time considering I'm only 30 yrs old. when I am your age jim I will have 30 yrs experience in the industry that I love. the Hot springs spas have a NO BYPASS FILTATION SYSTEM (I typed that part slow so you would understand) THERE ARE NO , 0 , NADA , NONE , SUCTION FITTINGS IN THE BOTTM OF THE SPA, THEREFORE THERE IS NO , 0 , NADA , ZILCH , ZERO CHANCE OF ENTRAPMENT BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE WATER... I supose that if you removed the filters, stand pipes, and decided to sit in the filter well you could get stuck but unless you were only 10" tall that wouldn't matter much because your head would still be above water, and only if you lined your ANUS up directly on NOT ONE BUT TWO OF THE FITTINGS THERE WOULD BE NO DANGER OF EVISCERATION (spelling)

THIS IS THE LONGEST POST I HAVE EVER WRITTEN I HATE TYPING.

[hottub.pool_boy]

spadr,

I got a good laugh off that last 1/3 of the last paragraph. Nice.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Here is a tub that Walmart sells. Notice the UL suctions in the bottom foot well.

There are also four of them. I'll even bet this tub is UL listed, unlike the Hot Spring Spas.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

18 The wicked man earns deceptive wages,

but he who sows righteousness reaps a sure reward.

This is a Hot Spring spa with a single suction inlet for two jet pumps and a circulation pump.

That is exactly backwards from what the ANSI safety standard states.

Here is a sundance Cameo with two jet pumps. There are three suctions in the bottom and

a filter housing as well.

I believe they have a circulation pump that shares the jet pump.

This is a very similar design to our standard Fallsburg and the Meadobrook.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

18 The wicked man earns deceptive wages,

but he who sows righteousness reaps a sure reward.

Here is a Coleman spa with three suctions and a filter housing to make four total.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

Here is an LA Spa with one jet pump and two suction inlets.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

Chas, can you find one other spa brand that does not have safety suctions at the bottom of the tub?

Here is a UL listed Cal Spa. Three suctions and a filter to make four for safety to the UL.

Here is a Phoenix Coronado, one of the molds that we use. This is an

ETL listed product. Notice the three suctions and the large filter area for a total of

four suctions on two pumps as per the ANSI

Here is a really inexpensive spa with a 35 year shell warranty.

It sells for under 2600 and it is UL listed. Notice the filter and the suction for a

total of two sution inlets on one 1.5 HP pump.

Here is an ETL listed Dynasty spa. Look at the suctions in the bottom of the tub.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

Proverbs 11:18 (New International Version)

18 The wicked man earns deceptive wages,

but he who sows righteousness reaps a sure reward.

Here is a Themospa with 8 suctions in the footwell and and filter housing.

They conform to the UL and ANSI, but Hot Srping does not.

Here is a Hot Spring spa with a single suction area for basically three pumps. Exactly backwards from what the ANSI standard states. This is the only spa company they I have found anywhere that does not build to the ANSI standards.

[Chris H]

Jim,

You consistently state that Hotspring does not conform to UL1563. However, ETL and NSF both state that they do conform to this standard. How do you explain this?

NSF states under “NSF / ANSI Standard 50”that it actually groups all the standards for portable spas and pools into one category. Included with that standard is UL1563 which you state Hotspring is in violation. How do you explain this?

You consistently state that they are in violation, but yet provide no proof to this. How can they be in violation, but have both NSF and ETL listings?

This is the link to the NSF standard:

NSF

Since you are gone – I will wait till you come back to bump this back up.

Please when you respond don’t keep calling me stupid when I am actually making points in which you fail to respond.

Chris

[Jim_The_Jim]

Chas; Put up the diagram of the HP spas with two jet pumps and one circ pump. Please?

Greed evenutally results in killing people. Remember the Pinto, the Corvair, the Chevy trucks with exploding gas tanks they all passed the federal regulations. It is only after some people have died that action is done.

[Roger]

Chas; Put up the diagram of the HP spas with two jet pumps and one circ pump. Please?

Greed evenutally results in killing people. Remember the Pinto, the Corvair, the Chevy trucks with exploding gas tanks they all passed the federal regulations. It is only after some people have died that action is done.

http://www.soundclick.com/crappymusic

7 month old thread that has been thouroly covered and Jim proven wrong. And Jim chooses to respond to a smut post to get beat up again.

[Richs100]

Informal Survey:

How many here think we would learn a lot more about suction fittings by clicking the Lindsey Lohan link, rather than reading another of Jim's rants against Hot Spring tubs?

[Roger]

Informal Survey:

How many here think we would learn a lot more about suction fittings by clicking the Lindsey Lohan link, rather than reading another of Jim's rants against Hot Spring tubs?

[soakerman]

Let's see the diagram Jim is looking for and do a comparison.

[Chas]

Let's see the diagram Jim is looking for and do a comparison.

Well, I don't know what diagram he is referring to, but I have already posted a diagram - above - that shows how the tubs work. The larger units have twin jet pumps, so they add an additional pair of filters. Otherwise, it is the same as shown. They do have the pump inlets very close to the filters on most HotSpring models, so the plumbing from the filter to the pump is very straight without the elbow shown in the diagram. Very few fittings at all - most models have just an elbow at the bottom of the first filter and a "T" fitting at the bottom of the second filter and then a straight shot into the pump. The pipe used is flexible, so there may be a bend to accomodate alignment, but no elbows or other fittings to slow the flow. It really can't get any cleaner than that.

Now that I have shown this diagram and explained it in detail, do you suppose we could see some sort of evidence as to the electrical safety of the spas JA is offering.... oh, say, a UL , ETL, or NSF listing?

Just a thought.