Nature 2 Setup

[Ja4496]

I've been reading lots on here about water chem and the multiple systems that are recommended. I'm buying a brand new Hot Spot Rhythm and the dealer suggests and includes the nature 2 system. I've been reading what I can find on it and it seems like a good system. The tub will get mostly used by 2 people almost nightly and vary rarely by groups of 4. Its seems like a really simple setup and upkeep but I can't find a lot on it here compared to the other systems. I'm not afraid of spending the $ on the name brand spa store chems as apposed to using bleach and borax and what not from the store shelves as other systems do. My question is: is it really as simple as shocking on start up and once a week after and just adding a tablespoon and a half of MPS per 250 gallons before and after use? It seems extremely simple compared to the dichlor or 3 step bromine mehods. Am I making the other methods more complicated? Should I run like a scolded dog from nature 2? Input?

[chem geek]

Yes, you are making the other methods too complicated. With Dichlor-only or Dichlor-then-bleach, you just add chlorine once, usually right after each soak, assuming you soak every day or two. With frequent spa use, you could just do 2-step bromine and again just add an oxidizer once after each soak. All systems need some adjustment to get to a stable pH because it depends on how much aeration you have (i.e. if you use spa jets and for how long). And all systems require you to measure your sanitizer level, usually just before your soak (even Nature2 requires that). Anyway, Nature2 with MPS is fine to use, but be aware that you'll likely need to also use chlorine about once a week or so to keep the water clear. MPS alone isn't usually enough for moderate-to-heavy use.

[Ja4496]

By using chlorine one a week, is that stabilized dichlor or just 6% Clorox bleach? I'll look at the two step bromine more in depth. I guess as it stands, if you were a first timer learning everything fresh, with no bias, what method would you choose? I don't have any real sensitivity to any pool chems, but if given the option I'd rather sanitize with the least amount of chemicals possible and the nature 2 advertises that, how true or false it is I can't say. You can pay PR people to make anything look great. I know I'll be able to pick up any system and run with it, just trying to figure out if nature 2 isn't as good ad the dealer makes it out to be. I think the initial setup just seems easier, but I guess everyone goes through these anxieties at first and I'm glad to have this forum available. I'm looking at the k-2006 test kit on amazon for 60$ but I want to see what kit my dealer recommends. Any suggestion on that as well?

[waterbear]

Nature 2 uses silver ions and MPS at elevated water temperatures as your sanitizer. It really is not using any less chemicals. The sliver comes form silver nitrate and MPS is a known irritant and you need to keep a residual in the water at all times if you want sanitized water. It does not require as much chlorine as a chlorine spa but it requires the silver and MPS. You are just trading one chemical for another.

As far as test kits, for chlorine it's the K-2006, for Nature2 it would be a K-2006 and the MPS reagent add on. For bromine it is the K-2106.

You mentioned 2 step bromine. That is actually much more work thant chlorine, 3 step bromine, or nature 2. If you don't want to give the spa daily attention then 3 step bromine is the most forgiving. Nature 2 is probably the most 'fragile' in terms of the water developing problems .

Hope this helps.

AS far as spending money on 'name brand store chems' vs. generics...well,the generics are often better in the long run because the are much purer and don't have a lot of the fillers added to raise profits. AS far as chlorine sources go, bleach (liquid chlorine) is the one with the fewest side effects of the ones available,which is why it is recommended.Since such small quantities are needed for a spa and since it does have a shelf life it is a better choice than pool chlorine (which is usually but not always twice the strength but has a much shorter shelf life so it will lose strengt before it is use unless you also have a pool. As far as baking soda vs alkalinity increaser. They are one and the same except that baking soda is food grade so it is much purer and it is also about 1/4 of the price per pound.

Borax is a better choice for raising pH than pH increaser (which is just washing soda, sal soda, soda ash, pick a name) because it does not adversely affect TA the way soda ash does!

It's not about spending the money on dealer brands, it's just that they are not always the best thing to use!

[Saff]

I have been using the Nature2 system since I bought my first spa back in June. It's a Sundance Hamilton and it came set-up to use with that Nature2 system. I find it to be a very simple system to use. I just followed the instructions, the ones you quoted and have never had any problems with my water yet(knock on wood). Like chem geek said, you do need to add a small amount Dichlor / chlorine once a week or so to keep it sanitized. I've had no problems with any negative or sensitivity to the chemicals . The MPS does tend to lower the pH in my opinion so you need to keep an eye on that.Even if your not using your tub for a few days you still need to keep an eye on the MPS as it burns off rather quickly. People who have come over to use my tub can't believe how clear my water is.

This is just my experience with Nature2 and I have no knowledge about the other systems and how they work.

Oh! one last thing, make sure you fill your spa, flush the system with a spa flush product and drain before you try adjusting your water.

[waterbear]

Nature 2 does work fine if you follow the instructions and the spa is not a heavy usage one. Heavy usage spas tend to require chlorine shocking more than weekly with N2 so it is not the best choice in this case, IMHO.

[chem geek]

The MPS does tend to lower the pH in my opinion so you need to keep an eye on that.Even if your not using your tub for a few days you still need to keep an eye on the MPS as it burns off rather quickly.

One can keep the Total Alkalinity (TA) somewhat higher to compensate for the net acidity of the MPS. Just don't go too far up with the TA without compensating pH and CH in order to prevent scaling. If you get to a point of fairly stable pH, then what will happen is a slow drop in TA over time that can be made up for with baking soda.

[waterbear]

Which just goes to show that no matter which sanitizer system you go with you still are going to have to maintain the water properly. One system is not necessarily harder or easier than another. They all have tradeoffs. The key is to pick a system that you think will fit into your spa usage lifestye!

[Ja4496]

I still need to keep re reading everything over and over between the 3 step bromine and nature 2. I'll chart it out and compare side by side and go from there.

[Boomer01]

I also just got a hot tub and am using the Nature2 system based on recommendations. I use a chlorine based shock once or twice a week and the non-chlorine based shock (MPS) after every use. Seems to be working perfect so far.

[GaTub]

Usage makes a big difference, probably regardless of the system used.

I've found that with N2 and two people for short soaks several times per week the recipe works fine. But with heavy usage there is a need for more chlorine or things can quickly go bad. Got home last night and found my wife and several of her friends hung out at the tub all yesterday afternoon. She added MPS and the level looked OK on the strip, but I added a bunch of chlorine anyway. Everything looks great this morning. I've learned to stay a step ahead

Yes, my pH tends to gradually drop with time but adjusting once every week or two is not much trouble. I use the K2006 kit for pH and other measurements, and N2 strips to monitor MPS.

Using the system for 6 months now so starting to feel like a pro of sorts. Well at least not a newbie anymore.

[Drags]

could someone give me a quick pros and cons list of using Nature 2 vs just chlorine? would i be right in saying:

• Nature 2 (silver ions + MPS) - cuts down on need for chl for those maybe sensitive to it or wanting to cut it out for one reason or another. I appreciate some people are sensitive to MPS as well. Some chl still used weekly as shock though. Any other benefits? Seems to be that you also have to add more MPS than you would if you were using just chlorine, more daily and more if you used MPS to shock. Seems to me like it's quite a lot more, about 1 TEAspoon chlorine vs 2 TABLEspoons MPS - referring to some maintenance guidelines hotspring have for their 'Everfresh' system. So does that mean a negative is having to buy more of it and so spending more money on it in long term?
  
• Chrloine - if using just chlorine as a sanitizer and not MPS as i understand it there is no point in having the silver ions in there? they won't do anything to help? So chlorine might actually be simpler as you're just adding a small amount after each soak and a weekly shock? also need about half as much as you would if going the MPS route so cheaper in long run? only negative is maybe some people sensitive to chlorine or wanting to cut it out for one reason or another?
  

Also, if you do go the silver ions + MPS route, and use MPS before and after each soak - do you have to also keep a particular FAC level in the tub as well? I assume you use MPS test strips (like the Nature 2 test strips) to measure a suitable MPS level every day, but do you also need chlorine strips to keep a certain FAC level, albeit presumably you can have lower than the normal 3 - 5ppm needed for a chlorine only system?

[chem geek]

It takes about twice as much volume of MPS for the equivalent amount of Dichlor. It's also more expensive even for the same amount. The rough rule of thumb is that every person-hour of soaking requires 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS).

You are correct that if you are using chlorine then there isn't much point having the silver in there since chlorine kills pathogens on its own.

With silver+MPS you measure the MPS level, not FC (FAC) and do not maintain a chlorine level. The periodic shocking with chlorine is to clear up the water since MPS doesn't oxidize everything you want it to (chlorine doesn't oxidize everything, but it handles more of what can cloud the water).

Basically, silver+MPS is for people who want to avoid chlorine (most of the time) and are willing to pay more to do that.

[Drags]

great, thanks Chem geek. I've been reading these fine forums all day and that was the message i was starting to get. For now i will remove the Nature2 silver ions since i'm not using MPS at all and just stick with the chlorine only system (small amounts after each use and a weekly shock). if for any reaon i find problems with chlorine or sensitivity maybe I'll look again at the MPS + silver route, but given the additional costs it seems unnecessary

[waterbear]

could someone give me a quick pros and cons list of using Nature 2 vs just chlorine? would i be right in saying:

• Nature 2 (silver ions + MPS) - cuts down on need for chl for those maybe sensitive to it or wanting to cut it out for one reason or another.I appreciate some people are sensitive to MPS as well. Some chl still used weekly as shock though. Any other benefits? Seems to be that you also have to add more MPS than you would if you were using just chlorine, more daily and more if you used MPS to shock. Seems to me like it's quite a lot more, about 1 TEAspoon chlorine vs 2 TABLEspoons MPS - referring to some maintenance guidelines hotspring have for their 'Everfresh' system. So does that mean a negative is having to buy more of it and so spending more money on it in long term?
  

There is really no such thing as 'being sensitive to chlorine! This is a myth! Period! There is such a thing as being sensitive to MPS. Period!

When you are using the Nature2/MPS then your sanitizer is the MPS which is catalyzed by the silver at the elevated water temperatures in the spa. You must maintain an MPS residual in the water and the water must remain heated for this system to be a complete sanitizer. The chlorine 'shock is necessary weekly or more often in heavy usage to remove the film that forms on the ceramic beads that house the silver nitrate so it can keep introducing silver into the system or the MPS stops being a sanitizer.

FWIW, the "everfresh" is just a rebranded N2 and the instructions are identical. There is even the Nature 2 logo on the box!

The interesting thing is when you look at the dichlor only instructions for the Nature 2 and compute the chlorine levels you are using. You will find that you are using what are considered to be in the normal range for a chlorine only spa WITHOUT THE NATURE 2 so in this case all the cartridge is doing is making your wallet lighter every 4 months! You are just running your spa on dichlor. Period! (several years ago, when Zodaic was making claims that you could use reduced chlorine with the Nature 2 there was a different 'recipe for chlorine only use that had chlorine levels of about .5 ppm and weekly shocking with MPS. These instructions where changed about 7 years ago in many countries since it did not provide sanitized water!)

• Chrloine - if using just chlorine as a sanitizer and not MPS as i understand it there is no point in having the silver ions in there? they won't do anything to help? So chlorine might actually be simpler as you're just adding a small amount after each soak and a weekly shock? also need about half as much as you would if going the MPS route so cheaper in long run? only negative is maybe some people sensitive to chlorine or wanting to cut it out for one reason or another?
  

There is not such thing as a sensitivity to chlorine. In fact, bleach baths are used to treat pediatric eczema and the chlorine levels are about 50 ppm with no stabilizer! Here is one reference, there are many others: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/eczema-bleach-bath/AN02003/ This is much stronger then found in a pool or spa. The advantage to Nature 2 in a low usage tub is that it does not require quite at much attention as a chlorine tub will but it is still not as 'forgiving' as three step bromine in terms of water parameters.

Also, if you do go the silver ions + MPS route, and use MPS before and after each soak - do you have to also keep a particular FAC level in the tub as well? I assume you use MPS test strips (like the Nature 2 test strips) to measure a suitable MPS level every day, but do you also need chlorine strips to keep a certain FAC level, albeit presumably you can have lower than the normal 3 - 5ppm needed for a chlorine only system?

NO because you are not sanitizing with chlorine, you are sanitizing with silver/MPS/hot water. You still need a good test kit (read Taylor K-2006) to test pH, TA, CH and possibly CYA and can use the Nature 2 strips to monitor MPS but a better idea is to get the MPS reagent add on for the Taylor kit from Taylor to get a more precise MPS reading instead of just "low", "good", or "high"

[GaTub]

Buried away in the last post..

The advantage to Nature 2 in a low usage tub is that it does not require quite at much attention as a chlorine tub

That's the beginning and the end of it. For heavy usage there is not much difference since you still have to add a bunch of chlorine to keep the water clear. But with N2 I feel comfortable leaving the tub for a few days if the water is in good shape and it is not being used. I wouldn't want to do that relying on chlorine only.

[Drags]

thanks again Waterbear for the explanation.

[mhaleusa]

Great! Thanks for this thread. I'm trying to get up to speed with my Sundance Optima using the N2 (square cartridge) that they told me to put in the filter door. I am thinking of going with this MPS + Silver method and seeing how I make out (of course, still doing the weekly shocks).

I'm curious, anyone every use this N2 system and wind up switching back to cholorine/bromine? I'd be curious to hear any real experience with that situation. In the meantime, many thanks to the OP here and everyone in this community for being so helpful to us newbies.

[Ja4496]

I've used it for two weeks now and had zero problems. My water is crystal clear and staying well balanced. The only thing I had to watch was my ph would drop to the 6.8-7 range the first few days but has stayed spot on since then around 7.8. I have no complaints about it at all. I shock it 2 times a week but its been getting heavy use since its brand new. I add 1.5 tablespoons mps after each use and my mps levels remain good at all times. Cleaned the filter and added my scale and metal chem but otherwise have not had to adjust ph alchelinity since the first couple days.

[waterbear]

many people end up switching because N2, if not done properly, will let the water 'go south' fairly fast. There have been many reports of cloudy, smelly water that have caused people to switch. However, if the tub is not high usage and the instructions are followed it generally does work out well.

[mhaleusa]

Definitely going to be high usage. Every day... at least every day that I'm home and there isn't lightning!

However, I shower prior to getting in and, sad to say, its just me by myself usually.

Ja4496, it will be interesting to see what our impressions are as time passes. As you said, right now things seem great.

[Ja4496]

Definitely going to be high usage. Every day... at least every day that I'm home and there isn't lightning!

However, I shower prior to getting in and, sad to say, its just me by myself usually.

Ja4496, it will be interesting to see what our impressions are as time passes. As you said, right now things seem great.

We use ours nightly for about 45 min or so and have had a few people over. Like I said no problems so far but we shall see what the future holds.

[waterbear]

If you stay on top of any water sanitation regime you should have no problems. It is when you get a bit lax that problems occur. Nature 2 iseems to be a bit less forgiving than 3 step bromine or chlorine in a high usage tub when you let things slip a bit.

[Ja4496]

I assume its like motorcycles... there are guys who have been down and guys who are gonna go down. Well there are people who have had water problems and people that are going to have water problems lol.

[waterbear]

Also, if you know what to do when things are not testing as they should and you correct it it really isn't a problem. is it?