Hot Springs Vanguard And Marquis Destiny Price Info

[patrick]

My wife and I are getting close to buying a hot tub. We have narrowed it down to the Hot Springs Vanguard or possibly a Marquis like the 744E or the Destiny. The price at the Portland Oregon homeshow last weekend for the Vanguard was $9,600 including the cover, start-up kit, everfresh system, and delivery (standard stuff). The sales guy was saying this was about $1,000 off the normal price since they had a floor model. But some of the forum users were saying $8,000 is a fair price for the Vanguard. We have been disappointed in dealing with all the local spa dealers around here. They act like used car salesmen. We have been doing a lot of internet research and have scheduled to wet test Marquis. Trying to get the Hot Springs guys to schedule a wet test also (waiting for the call back).

We are a little worried the Hot Springs guy was price gouging us. The Marquis dealer said he could get us in a Destiny for around $8,800.

I have put my info on the hot tub quote site, but that is 7-10 days away I think.

Any information on prices would be helpful,

Thanks

[BruceRN]

I am from Rhode Island and the Vanguard price I received recently at a couple of dealers was $8,500 with everything (excluding tax). I am trying to get that price down as I have read where others have paid under $8,000. However, it seems that there are price differences depending on what part of the country you live. Your price definitely seems high though.

Bruce

[Jim_The_Jim]

I think you need to go back and investigate spa design.

Full Foam Spas VS More Modern Thermally Sealed:

This subject runs throughout our entire web site, because it is the most important design concept a consumer should consider. The best insulation is the thermally closed design, which is opposite to what is considered "good” by the old time spa sales people. There is no evidence that full foam has any superior insulation to what has been proven in the side by side independent testing.

The facts are in, and all of the independent testing shows the thermally closed is better.

The Thermal Closed or Thermally Sealed are far superior to the out of date full foam.

Full foam (and other silly design concepts) is still here because of consumer's lack of understanding on the subject of hot tubs and spas. You would have to know almost nothing about natural science to purchase a full foam spa after reading any of the articles on insulation contained in this site.

The only way these other spas could be sold is because the consumer takes a look at the surface of the spa and goes no farther. The sales persons "stays on the surface" and sells the spa, using the consumers ignorance. Apparently there are a lot of naive spa shoppers. I am sorry if that offends those who have already made the mistake of purchasing a full foam spa. This information on spa deign has been "out there" for nearly 9 years. If you didn't do the research, what else is there to say?

When people read my book and go shopping, these sales people are "set way back", because they have no factual answers to give to the consumer about the design of their products. I had one of my customers thrown out of the store for asking detailed questions about that salesman's product that the salesman could not answer.

The first thing you should look for are spas that are NOT full foam or even 1/4 foam filled on the shell.. Only consider spas that are truly thermally closed insulation or thermally sealed. This is primary to owning a better value.

The original concept of full foam, was a cheap way to build hot tubs with a single sheet of flexible cheap plastic shell, stuffed with dense foam to keep it from falling down with water in it. (Did I tell you just how cheap this is?) It was developed in Southern California, next to the Mexican border where it never gets cold. It is really odd to see that same concept being sold today as a “premium” spa in cold climates and to see other companies copy this ridiculous concept because they want to "get in on" some of the profits. It really is a cheaply made product being hyped to for profits because of consumer ignorance. If this were sold at a price under $3000 that would not be such a poor value issue. Just the fact that they use plastic control boxes, should be enough to stop a smart person.I am sorry, but if you bought on of these spas, you really got taken advantage of, because of your lack of understanding.

There have been in the past three independent and separate tests performed comparing the out of date and archaic full foam spas to the, modern and much better, thermally closed. In all cases the thermally closed has been favored for better insulation.

Each year, we offer the “Spa Challenge” to all the spa companies. We even had the invitation sent out to all manufacturers to participate by an independent company, but absolutely no responses at all. (Golly gee, I wonder why? ) http://www.xxxx.com/SPA_CHALLENGE.html

The first independent test in 1994 that evaluated the rise in temperature the spa water received from two jet pumps in a real* Coleman Spa that was tested. There was a temperature rise of 14 degrees, on high speed, just from the pumps over an 8 hour period. These were 1.5 HP pumps by the way; very small horsepower by today's standards. On low speed, with just the filter pump, the rise was 4 degrees over 8 hours.

In 1996 another test was performed by the Universities of Arizona and Colorado here is a synopsis of the results with my notes in brackets “{}”

"a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier {Thermally Sealed}, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."

In a recent test done in Alberta Canada, the Thermally Closed Arctic spa came in very high compared to some popular spas. http://www.xxxx.com/AlbertaResearchCouncil.html

.

To summarize the differences between the so called “full foam” and the much more modern “thermally sealed”:

Repairs on full foam spas are more expensive because of the labor to dig out all that wasted foam to find leaks. (about 4 times more costly than a well designed Spa) Also the equipment compartment is harder to work in because of limited space. After the leak is fixed then you have to pay to refoam it. http://www.xxxx.com/shopping.html

The full foam spas have plumbing errors in that the pumps are normally placed sideways in the front of the cabinet (in a pretty little box). This causes these spas to have more turns in the major plumbing pipes to disturb and restrict water flow. It causes a waste of energy. If you have 4 HP pumps and you receive 3 HP worth of energy, what else would you call it? When they add “diverter first plumbing” to this nonsense, it is really sad to see all of that energy wasted like that. "Clean Plumbing" with as little restriction as possible is the best

In a Thermally Sealed spa made correctly , the whole cabinet space is utilized to align the pumps to the major plumbing with the least amount of turns. This also gives better access to the equipment for service.

In Winter, when the power is shut off to the spa for any reason in full foam spas, the equipment in the open box in front is going to freeze quickly, unless the owners of the spa apply heat to that area. Most of the freeze damage is caused by a GFCI tripping and or a control box failure. (This design is idiotic for cold climates!)

In a typical full foam spa the equipment is set out in a vented non-insulated box. This way while the pump is running and the heater is on the cold air is cooling the equipment. It is basically cooling at the same time it is heating (Isn't that an oxymoron.). This also causes thermal stress on the plumbing by causing a lot of expansion and contraction to the parts.

In a thermally sealed spa the entire spa is insulated, INCLUDING THE EQUIPMENT. This gives a much longer time before the equipment freezes….. up to two weeks in freezing winter. The water vessel is like a huge “hot water bottle” sitting in the middle of a small room. This makes the Thermally Sealed the only real choice for cold climates. There is a much longer "down time" before freezing starts.

The Thermally sealed spas have a more even temperature on all the plumbing parts and the pump “wet ends” because the equipment is not subjected to freezing air in winter. It is always warm in the cabinet.

The full foam spas have almost no thermal contact between the water in the vessel and the heat from the jet pumps. That means there is extremely limited heat transfer from the motor heat into the spa water while the pumps are on.

In a thermally closed design with proper use of insulation, the heat from the pumps is transferred directly into the spa water by the fact that the cabinet is warmed up and the heat is drawn into the vessel from the large surface area of the shell.

In a full foam spa the common problem for jet pumps is they are eventually ruined by heat and lack of proper cooling. Most all of the full foam spas run the motors at temperatures that exceed the manufacturer's temperature specifications. They are relying on natural convection which cools like crazy in winter, and doesn't cool much at all in summer. The warm air in summer does not move quickly by natural convection, because it is already hot when it enters and never achieves a consistent velocity. When most spas operate in summer they are ruining the pumps, by normal use.

In a thermally sealed spa, the heat is transferred into the spa water, like a huge radiator that cools the equipment in a very direct fashion. (Two issues are solved by this design, the use of the heat to warm the water and the exchange of heat to cool the motors.) With a DAIT spa the motors are also cooled by a fan system controlled by thermal sensors. http://www.xxxx.com/DAIT.html

In the coldest of winter, you can have the air temperature inside the cabinet of a thermally sealed spa warmer than the spa water or very close to the temperature of the water in the vessel. The heat from filtering can be used to stop all heat losses out of the water vessel on the major surface area. This is equivalent to 100% immeasurable insulation. If the air is warmer than the water, the heat from the vessel is not escaping out the sides. READ.

Typically the method to try and save energy on a wasteful full foam spa is to use a tiny worthless circulation pump that causes poor water quality from weak filtering. http://www.xxxx.com/TheMythsOfFiltering.html The major spa companies use this as a cheap way to save energy, but it causes the consumers to use more chemicals to burn out the contaminants in the disgusting poorly filter water.

In a fully insulated thermal closed spa a full size pump can be used to filter and the energy costs are less, because of the thermal warm air barrier and the heat from the pump stops the use of the very expensive, 6,000 watt electric heater. Any time you can reduce the use of the wasteful electric heater, you extend the life of the heater and drastically reduce overall energy consumption.

Full foam spas are very expensive to do any upgrades or add any jets after the spas are finished. With thermally closed and using a proper foam, you can add jets, if you want at a later time. Suppose the jet manufacturer's come out with a really nice jet that you want; with a Haven Spa or a good thermally closed design, you can put that new jet in for as little as $150.00 (I know I have done this to Haven Spas.)

In a Full Foam spa you cannot operate an air injection system without wasting a lot of electricity. The air entering the water is going to be cooler than the water and causes the electric heater to run for a much longer time with each use. In a good Spa we capture the warm air from the pumps and use that to heat the air entering the air injection pump.

So, a well designed, modern thermally efficient hot tub uses the energy of the equipment much more fully and it is less costly to own, in electric use, chemicals because it filters better, and in maintenance or repairs be cause of ease of access. There is better use of the total energy of the spa, better water flow from the jet pumps, and cleaner water by proper filtering and has full therapy with three types of therapy. Water jets, Air jets and Turbo Air.. The motors last longer because of much better cooling. And of course an ethical company would only use steel control box enclosures.

[Roger]

I think you need to go back and investigate spa design.

Full Foam Spas VS More Modern Thermally Sealed:

Another great big long sales pitch from a man with suspect sales tactics and a suspect background. Take a guess consumers and all posters what insulation method Jim sells? Half truths and scewed facts, left out factors and controlled enviroments does not make a test.

This subject has been debated over and over so many times by every person. Go back and read the posts and you will find there really is no difference between the 2 IF THEY ARE DONE PROPERLY, and no matter how many times an idiot says one is better than the other it will not make it so, even if he dedicates a whole web site to his scewed words!!

I though direct linking to sales web sites was not allowed here.

[BruceRN]

I am no expert like Jim_The_Jim but full foam would be a concern to me if it had a shorter warranty. If it had a three year warranty I would not even consider them. Many full foam spas like Hot Spring (and others) have a five year warranty. I feel any leaks requiring Hot Spring to remove all foam to find them during that period must be very unusual. Hot Spring also has a 90 day spa replacement guarranty for any leaks in the foam during that period. I also hear (via the net) that there are a great many Hot Spring (and other brands) owners out there who have not had any problems well beyong 5 years.

[spjordan]

I am no expert like Jim_The_Jim but full foam would be a concern to me if it had a shorter warranty. If it had a three year warranty I would not even consider them. Many full foam spas like Hot Spring (and others) have a five year warranty. I feel any leaks requiring Hot Spring to remove all foam to find them during that period must be very unusual. Hot Spring also has a 90 day spa replacement guarranty for any leaks in the foam during that period. I also hear (via the net) that there are a great many Hot Spring (and other brands) owners out there who have not had any problems well beyong 5 years.

Kind of funny how far off the subject of pricing this went. Patrick asked about spa prices and recieved a whole lot more than he aksed for. I won't claim to be an expert either, in fact, I'm new to all this. I'm sure there are pros an cons either way, and I gave a lot of thought to this before I puchased my Spa last week. It seems to me though, that using a fully foamed spa would act almost like a thermos. If I were relying on waste heat from a motor to help heat my spa, then two things come to mind. What keeps the water temperature from rising above the desired temperature, and two, if the spas shell was made of quality materials, wouldn't the shell repell or block the heat anyway? My neighbor has a fully foamed Sundance Optima that he's had for the past eight years. In that time he's never had any problems, and has moved his spa twice. His electric bills are between 8 dollars in the summer to 18 in the winter with heavy use in a cold climate.

By the way Jim, the Phoenix spa which you highly tout, is fully foamed.

[hottublady]

My wife and I are getting close to buying a hot tub. We have narrowed it down to the Hot Springs Vanguard or possibly a Marquis like the 744E or the Destiny. The price at the Portland Oregon homeshow last weekend for the Vanguard was $9,600 including the cover, start-up kit, everfresh system, and delivery (standard stuff). The sales guy was saying this was about $1,000 off the normal price since they had a floor model. But some of the forum users were saying $8,000 is a fair price for the Vanguard. We have been disappointed in dealing with all the local spa dealers around here. They act like used car salesmen. We have been doing a lot of internet research and have scheduled to wet test Marquis. Trying to get the Hot Springs guys to schedule a wet test also (waiting for the call back).

We are a little worried the Hot Springs guy was price gouging us. The Marquis dealer said he could get us in a Destiny for around $8,800.

I have put my info on the hot tub quote site, but that is 7-10 days away I think.

Any information on prices would be helpful,

Thanks

Hey Patrick,

I live in Washington and the Vanguard here is going for $9620 with cover lifter. Hope this helps! And the other person who commented and said the price is different depending on where you live is completely correct. -Hottublady

[soakerman]

Depending on where you live, you can be in the drivers seat as long as your not set on a specific brand of spa. Get a few quotes but remember a quote is not the sales price, it's just to see if youll bite on a offer. Hot Springs is famous for throwing out a qoute the settling ona "special" price if you give any resistance but look like you might buy, the price will fall. If you don't believe me then go to a few Hot springs dealers and act as if you'll buy then compare the three prices, you will be amazed at the spread!

[Jim_The_Jim]

Kind of funny how far off the subject of pricing this went. Patrick asked about spa prices and recieved a whole lot more than he aksed for. I won't claim to be an expert either, in fact, I'm new to all this. I'm sure there are pros an cons either way, and I gave a lot of thought to this before I puchased my Spa last week. It seems to me though, that using a fully foamed spa would act almost like a thermos. If I were relying on waste heat from a motor to help heat my spa, then two things come to mind. What keeps the water temperature from rising above the desired temperature, and two, if the spas shell was made of quality materials, wouldn't the shell repell or block the heat anyway? My neighbor has a fully foamed Sundance Optima that he's had for the past eight years. In that time he's never had any problems, and has moved his spa twice. His electric bills are between 8 dollars in the summer to 18 in the winter with heavy use in a cold climate.

By the way Jim, the Phoenix spa which you highly tout, is fully foamed.

You can get a Phoenix spa anyway you want it. They will full foam for a small fee. If you are comparing Sundance to Phoenix, the foam or not foam is not the issue it is the much higher quality of the Phoenix products.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

I am no expert like Jim_The_Jim but full foam would be a concern to me if it had a shorter warranty. If it had a three year warranty I would not even consider them. Many full foam spas like Hot Spring (and others) have a five year warranty. I feel any leaks requiring Hot Spring to remove all foam to find them during that period must be very unusual. Hot Spring also has a 90 day spa replacement guarranty for any leaks in the foam during that period. I also hear (via the net) that there are a great many Hot Spring (and other brands) owners out there who have not had any problems well beyong 5 years.

So, you think that five years is long enough life on a spa?

The first spas we sold are still running after 10 years and will most likely go for another 10, because they are fully repairable and you can use non exclusive parts that are available anywhere. Typically fiberglass shells are have a much longer life and are easy to do surface repairs.

I believe in making things that last. I am against the nomal way of the spa industry that after five to seven years, it is time for a new spa.

Will you let us all know after the warranty is up how much it costs to fix it. When a heater costs 500 bucks vs 100 bucks for a titaninum replacement? (current prices)

[Trigger]

sime drival and BS Sales pitch....blah blah blah.

Patrick, A quality tub, either full foamed, or of a thermal design (Such as artic) will last you many years.

If you are concerned about the long term endurance and quality of manufucatuers such as Hotsprings, it's pretty easy to understand who's telling the truth 0 simply look around at what your neighbors have, and what's been out in the consumer's backyards for years. If all the hype (and that's exactly what it is) about FF being a liablility, you will see that a quality full foam tub is the industry standard and that they have hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers for many many years.

On the other hand, you can also do some investigation about jim_the_Jim's shop that rebrands 2nd rate tubs, and once again, you'll find alarming information. Look at the results and what's out in the field, don't listen to slaesfolks who are morally and finacialy bankrupt.

[patrick]

We went out lastnight and wet tested the Hot Springs Vanguard and the Marquis Destiny and 744E. The Vanguard was a nicer looking tub, but we found that we liked the jets in the Marquis better. In fact the cheaper 744E had the best theraputic jets for both my wife and I. At first when we got in the Marquis we both looked at each other and said that the Marquis looked a little cheesey compared to the Hot Springs, but once we started the soak we decided it felt better.

Also our experience with the Marquis dealer was much better than the Hot Springs dealer. We both felt like the Marquis deal was not pressuring us and in fact was pointing out some of the positive points of the Vanguard. The Marquis salesman seemed much more interested in explaining the services they would provide after purchase. Both my wife and I felt comfortable dealing with the Marquis sales people, where we were unsure about Hot Springs. Had the Hot Springs sales people been better we may not have made it to Marquis for the wet test. In the end It came down to fit and dealer preference. I think both tubs are great, but the Marquis just fit us better. And we got a great deal. So we bought it.

I appreciate the input I gained from searching the posts on this forum.

[Chas]

[quote name=patrick' date='Mar 5 2007, 07:55 AM' post='21172] So we bought it. [/quote]

Congrats! Now comes the hardest part of tub ownership - the wait.

Let me welcome you to Spatopia in advance - you'll love your tub.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You can get a Phoenix spa anyway you want it. They will full foam for a small fee.

I didn't know that.

I know it costs more to full foam a spa, I wonder how much more they charge for this upgrade.

[Tom]

What keeps the water temperature from rising above the desired temperature, and two, if the spas shell was made of quality materials, wouldn't the shell repell or block the heat anyway?

One, in order to prevent high water temperatures due to filter cycles during warm weather, the system will cancel the filter cycle if the water temperature exceeds the set temperature by more than 1 degree Celsius. The filtration cycle will automatically resume once the water temperature drops below the setpoint (source: Arctic Spas owner manual).

Two, fiberglass reinforced polymer (FRP) and acrylic, both quality materials, are modest conductors rather than insulators (see, for example, http://www.glacierbay.com/Heatprop.asp)

[Richs100]

Hey Patrick:

If you purchased the Marquis, Congratulations on your new tub.

It sounds like you made the right decision based on your experiences with both dealers. I have owned tubs for the last twelve years (93 HS Prodigy, now an 06 HS Envoy) and have always felt my relationship with the dealer is one of the most important elements of enjoying my hot tub.

I have a very close dealer which just doesn't seem to give a damn. Fortunately, I also have another dealer within range who is very good and very responsive. That second dealer is the one I deal with, and it makes all the difference.

Happy Tubbing!