Pool Pump Wiring

[bjamin82]

Hello,

I can hopefully explain this with little confusion... and I appreciate the help in advance!

I just bought a new house that has a pool. The pump, 230v Hayward, is wired to a Intermatic T104P3 timer. Two wires come off the circuit breaker to the timer on the line side, along with power to my electric companies on call box, not sure if others have this on call system but basically if the power company needs additional load, they can cut power to my pool pump remotely for a period of time... it provides a credit for my electric bill.... on the load side of the timer one power lead is connected to the pump. The other power lead from the pump is connected to the on call box. So what use to happen is when the timer clicked on and off it shut the pump on and off. Now what happens, when the timer clicks off, it only turns off the one power lead from the timer to the pump and the power from the on call box is still flowing, which eventually over heats the pump and trips the breaker. I have had the power company out, its not the on call box. And I replaced the timer, which isn't the cause of the issue. The electrician from the power company said he has seen this before, but never found out the cause.

So my question is, does the pump have some sort of safety switch where if it senses load from one lead drop and kills the pump? Can that ware out?

In the mean time, i have the on call box disconnected, but would like to reconnect it so I can continue getting my discount.

Any help is much appreciated!

[Pool Clown]

Are you saying that your call box is still getting power to it even when the timer is switched off?

T104 time clocks should disconnect both loads from the lines. If the call box is still getting power, then the call box isn't being powered by the timeclock, but by some other source.

Or

The time clock for some reason is not disconnecting both sides like it should.

Or

Somehow the wire from the callbox to the load connection got moved to the line connection.

With the power off of course, you can un-clip, or unscrew the mechanism from the box. On the back side ,you can see the 2 contacts. Do both contacts separate from each other when they should?

[bjamin82]

Are you saying that your call box is still getting power to it even when the timer is switched off?

T104 time clocks should disconnect both loads from the lines. If the call box is still getting power, then the call box isn't being powered by the timeclock, but by some other source.

Or

The time clock for some reason is not disconnecting both sides like it should.

Or

Somehow the wire from the callbox to the load connection got moved to the line connection.

With the power off of course, you can un-clip, or unscrew the mechanism from the box. On the back side ,you can see the 2 contacts. Do both contacts separate from each other when they should?

The on call box is getting power directly from the breaker. So with one lead from the on call box hooked up to the pump, the pump always has power going to it, so the timer is shutting off half. Now this use to work, when the timer clicked off, the pump stopped.

[Pool Clown]

If you take the call box out of the circuit, and the motor does not get hot and trip the breaker, i would come to the conclusion that the trouble is the call box. I realize you have had someone out to check the call box, and i have this to say: It's easier to say it's some other components fault and not have to replace or diagnose said call box. Ask them to humor you and just replace the call box.

[bjamin82]

If you take the call box out of the circuit, and the motor does not get hot and trip the breaker, i would come to the conclusion that the trouble is the call box. I realize you have had someone out to check the call box, and i have this to say: It's easier to say it's some other components fault and not have to replace or diagnose said call box. Ask them to humor you and just replace the call box.

Completely agree, took the call box out and hooked up the pump properly to the timer, works just fine... they did replace the call box, same issue. And like I said this use to work fine, and then one day with no one touching it, it stopped working fine.

[Bugman1400]

If you take the call box out of the circuit, and the motor does not get hot and trip the breaker, i would come to the conclusion that the trouble is the call box. I realize you have had someone out to check the call box, and i have this to say: It's easier to say it's some other components fault and not have to replace or diagnose said call box. Ask them to humor you and just replace the call box.

Completely agree, took the call box out and hooked up the pump properly to the timer, works just fine... they did replace the call box, same issue. And like I said this use to work fine, and then one day with no one touching it, it stopped working fine.

I have another possibility. Working for a power company, I am very familiar with load controls (call box). Load controls are normally installed on 240VAC devices (water heater, HVAC condensor units, etc.). For your 240VAC motor, it should not matter if L1 or L2 is removed. It is impossible for power to flow. If L1 is connected and L2 is not, where would the power flow to? This is the principle as to why it is connected the way it is. Your description of the connections sounds correct. For the company I work for, it is unusal for the load control to be used (only at the very worst peak times (ie Summer on 99 deg days)). However, the power company still gives the $8 credit to the customer during the seasonal times of the year for the extra insurance.

It is quite possible for you to bypass the load control without the power company ever finding out......many folks do. It usually happens on 99 deg days when the power company needs the extra power, but people discover that their HVAC unit is off on the hot as hell day and the desire to save $8 goes out the window.

It is possible that your motor or some component thereof (ie cap) is going bad and causing excess heat. There could also be a bad L1/L2 connection causing reduced voltage at the motor terminals that may also cause overheating.

Pool Clown has the right idea by eliminating the suspects one at a time. Eventually, you'll find out that it was Professor Plum in the Library with the candlestick.

Let us know what you find.

[bjamin82]

If you take the call box out of the circuit, and the motor does not get hot and trip the breaker, i would come to the conclusion that the trouble is the call box. I realize you have had someone out to check the call box, and i have this to say: It's easier to say it's some other components fault and not have to replace or diagnose said call box. Ask them to humor you and just replace the call box.

Completely agree, took the call box out and hooked up the pump properly to the timer, works just fine... they did replace the call box, same issue. And like I said this use to work fine, and then one day with no one touching it, it stopped working fine.

I have another possibility. Working for a power company, I am very familiar with load controls (call box). Load controls are normally installed on 240VAC devices (water heater, HVAC condensor units, etc.). For your 240VAC motor, it should not matter if L1 or L2 is removed. It is impossible for power to flow. If L1 is connected and L2 is not, where would the power flow to? This is the principle as to why it is connected the way it is. Your description of the connections sounds correct. For the company I work for, it is unusal for the load control to be used (only at the very worst peak times (ie Summer on 99 deg days)). However, the power company still gives the $8 credit to the customer during the seasonal times of the year for the extra insurance.

It is quite possible for you to bypass the load control without the power company ever finding out......many folks do. It usually happens on 99 deg days when the power company needs the extra power, but people discover that their HVAC unit is off on the hot as hell day and the desire to save $8 goes out the window.

It is possible that your motor or some component thereof (ie cap) is going bad and causing excess heat. There could also be a bad L1/L2 connection causing reduced voltage at the motor terminals that may also cause overheating.

Pool Clown has the right idea by eliminating the suspects one at a time. Eventually, you'll find out that it was Professor Plum in the Library with the candlestick.

Let us know what you find.

Thanks. So whats happening is removing the load control of course fixes it. When its connected and the timer is in the on position it works when the timer switches off, L1 has no power but L2 which is connected to the load control box is still getting power and still flowing to the pump, so its half on. Again this just started happening. I have replaced the timer and had the power company replace the load controller, same issue. The only thing left is the pump.

Does anyone know the inner workings of these pumps? are there any devices in the pump it self that could be causing this?

[Bugman1400]

Thanks. So whats happening is removing the load control of course fixes it. When its connected and the timer is in the on position it works when the timer switches off, L1 has no power but L2 which is connected to the load control box is still getting power and still flowing to the pump, so its half on. Again this just started happening. I have replaced the timer and had the power company replace the load controller, same issue. The only thing left is the pump.

Does anyone know the inner workings of these pumps? are there any devices in the pump it self that could be causing this?

Electrically, the pump is just a motor. There are many things that could be causing excessive heating. If the motor is not any louder than normal then the bearings are probably not the culprit. The next thing on the list is to check the capacitor. Sometimes, the terminals get loose or oxidized and result in a high impedance connection. The first step is simply pull the quick disconnect terminals off with pliers and re-seat. Then check to see if that solves your problem. If not, the next easiest and cheapest way to go is to replace the capacitor.

[Pool Clown]

I can tell you this, when Pentairs' variable speed drives first came out years ago, they specifically said to us "do not connect constant power to just one leg, it will "wreck" the drive". And it won't be covered under warranty. I guess they could tell if it had. To my knowledge it's still that way.

I have NO experience with the call boxes, but someone might want to look into this before they have to start buying a lot of motor drives.

Perhaps variable speed drives don't qualify for the boxes.

[PoolGuyNJ]

Never rely on removing a single leg of a 240VAC feed to stop a motor or any other device. They all have L1, L2, and Ground. Some have a Common also. Removing a single leg leaves 120 volts on the device. Both L1 and L2 must be removed for a proper shut down. AFAIK, there are no exceptions to this.

Scott

[bjamin82]

Never rely on removing a single leg of a 240VAC feed to stop a motor or any other device. They all have L1, L2, and Ground. Some have a Common also. Removing a single leg leaves 120 volts on the device. Both L1 and L2 must be removed for a proper shut down. AFAIK, there are no exceptions to this.

Scott

Right, up until a week ago, removing just one of the leads, would stop the motor, not it doesn't. I agree and don't condone hooking it up this way and i have fixed it by removing the on call box. I think was is bothering me more is that it use to work and now it doesn't. So something has changed, its not the timer and not the on call box. So it has to be something inside the motor.

Also, if anyone lives in Florida and has FPL, this is how they hook up the on call box to pool pumps... so be ware if its causing an issue.

[PoolGuyNJ]

A call box should disable L1 and L2 to the pump. Failure to do so can result in the motor being damaged. A 120V call box would only disable L1. A 240V call box should do both.

Scott

[Bugman1400]

Removing one leg of a simple 240VAC device is a common way to stop a motor. As far as variable speed drive motors, that is completely different. The motor is not driven directly from L1 and L2, it is driven from the variable speed drive circuit. As far as safety, obviously, you would need to completely isolate all voltage to replace or work on the motor, but for normal operation, switching one leg is common. If you have a pool heater, you can look at how the exhaust fan is switched with the Fenwal.

As I said before, I am very familiar with call boxes (load controls). It is basically, a relay ON/OFF switch that receives a signal through the power line to turn OFF or ON.

Finally, I do not want to get into a pissing match with Pool Clown or PoolGuy. They have already forgotten way more than I will ever know about pools and both have my most utmost respect.

[bjamin82]

A call box should disable L1 and L2 to the pump. Failure to do so can result in the motor being damaged. A 120V call box would only disable L1. A 240V call box should do both.

Scott

It is a 240V call box, but according to the power company this is how they always hook it up. Like I said before it always hooked up this way, timer is now new and so is the call box... So it just leaves the motor.

Removing one leg of a simple 240VAC device is a common way to stop a motor. As far as variable speed drive motors, that is completely different. The motor is not driven directly from L1 and L2, it is driven from the variable speed drive circuit. As far as safety, obviously, you would need to completely isolate all voltage to replace or work on the motor, but for normal operation, switching one leg is common. If you have a pool heater, you can look at how the exhaust fan is switched with the Fenwal.

As I said before, I am very familiar with call boxes (load controls). It is basically, a relay ON/OFF switch that receives a signal through the power line to turn OFF or ON.

Finally, I do not want to get into a pissing match with Pool Clown or PoolGuy. They have already forgotten way more than I will ever know about pools and both have my most utmost respect.

My pump is not a variable speed... So if its a common way to stop a 240VAC motor is to cut on of the leads, and now that is not happening, what could have changed in the motor?

[Bugman1400]

A call box should disable L1 and L2 to the pump. Failure to do so can result in the motor being damaged. A 120V call box would only disable L1. A 240V call box should do both.

Scott

It is a 240V call box, but according to the power company this is how they always hook it up. Like I said before it always hooked up this way, timer is now new and so is the call box... So it just leaves the motor.

Removing one leg of a simple 240VAC device is a common way to stop a motor. As far as variable speed drive motors, that is completely different. The motor is not driven directly from L1 and L2, it is driven from the variable speed drive circuit. As far as safety, obviously, you would need to completely isolate all voltage to replace or work on the motor, but for normal operation, switching one leg is common. If you have a pool heater, you can look at how the exhaust fan is switched with the Fenwal.

As I said before, I am very familiar with call boxes (load controls). It is basically, a relay ON/OFF switch that receives a signal through the power line to turn OFF or ON.

Finally, I do not want to get into a pissing match with Pool Clown or PoolGuy. They have already forgotten way more than I will ever know about pools and both have my most utmost respect.

My pump is not a variable speed... So if its a common way to stop a 240VAC motor is to cut on of the leads, and now that is not happening, what could have changed in the motor?

If you are electrically inclined, I would advise checking the voltage at the motor terminals with a voltmeter and make sure the voltage at the terminals is within 5% of what is on the nameplate. If it is, then check the cap; as I pointed out before. If you are not electrically inclined, then call somebody. That cap can hurt.

Let us know what you find.