thecanuck22 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 pet rocks are gone?! damn i just lost mine too. Alot of those things you mention waterbear are still around, and being used or done regularly, they are just not new and not often discussed anymore because everyone has accepted them. And your right i did not like the answer i got from the thread i posted because i didnt get my question answered, only got an automated response like a drone...chlorine....bromine....chlorine....bromine...two words....chlorine....bromine.... just like this thread. The OP SPECIFICALLY asked about alternatives and even went as far to say she refuses to use chlorine or bromine for health concerns, YET, you still beat her over the head with the two words....chlorine...bromine....chlorine ....bromine, to your credit you at least mentioned N2/MPS and PHMB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolSpaGuy30 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 this thread is almost laughable...ProVmom let me get this straight you want something that is cheap as possible, but yet healthy, and still sanitize the water so it is safe for your family? guess what, it doesn't exist, Waterbear has laid out the cheapest (using household items) and safest method to properly sanitize your water so that it is SAFE for your family, and if you want to believe something such as an enzyme product exists where you pay $50, dump in a bottle, and your water is perfect for 3 months, it just doesn't happen that way, sorry to break the bad news. If you want to believe that is the case and feel your need to "buck the system" because chlorine is unhealthy, well have one of your children or family members catch a case of Hot Tub itch or any of the other water bourne illnesses and I guarantee you'll change your tune, I've personally seen customers skin bleed because of dryness and rash associated with an improperly sanitized tub, is that something you want to happen to your family?? Customers of mine who cannot stand chlorine usually go: salt sytem (can have a high upfront cost, and aftermarket systems can be annoying because the cell "hangs" over the side of the tub, or ozone, N2 cartridge, MPS and something like silk balance with a small dosage of chlorine weekly, which greatly reduces the use of chlorine but again you need an ozone, you need to buy a N2 cartridge every 4 months, and silk balance or similar products are $100-$200 for a 4 month supply, so again it comes down to cost, which according to OP was one of your main concerns (cheap cost) Not sure why everyone is coming down on waterbear and chem geek...they are recommending you something safe as well as cheap, as professionals in the industry do you really think anyone on this board is going to recommend you some type of "snake oil" "all in one" product that has never been tested by the EPA?? why on earth would they, makes no sense at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 As professionals, such as water bear and I, a specialist in chemistry such as chem geek, we are offering our professional advice, these are the only safe systems, its not just government, its science. There may be products that make your water look clean, but it still does not mean it is safe. The industry is working on alternatives (such as UV, revese osmosis) but in the end the kill ate for germs is still not quick enough. you are in a small heated body of water, if you have a germ such as what causes spa itch(psudo.....spelling not my cup of tea), and your wife sitting 2 feet away does not, the kill time is to slow in any system, except those that were recommended, to kill that germ, then she has it. There are hundreds of thousands of germs we bring into the hot tub with us, and we as professionals can only recommend what is proven to be safe. If you read the directions to most of the enzyme systems, they need an added sanitizer such as bromine or chlorine, just at lower levels such as Nature 2 does. Nature 2 is the only one approved to be able to do this because of the large amount of MPS that is used to oxidise the waste you drag in..... Did you know that each person sweats about a pint in a spa session.....and we release 'toxins' from our body in our sweat, and sweat has the same compisition as urine (plus other nasties).....i think i will stick to bromine/chlorine/nature 2 or baqua to take care of that.... as said, there are so many diseases, germs, illnesses introduced into pools and specially hot tubs(they like the warmth), many of these kill, such as Cryto. Chlorine and bromine are made from the salts of our seas, used properly, i think the very slim possible health side effects outweigh the more than likley side effects you will get from water that is not properly sanitized. anyone watch discovery channel, the gold miners? the little girl who almost died having seizures, which they think was from the wonderful clean alaskan mountain water they were drinking???? Now the op has such very specific medical conditions, if i were in here shoes, i would speak to the DR. again to see why/what levels and to what repect (only internal consumption of chlorine or also external skin absorbption) do they need to stay away from chlorine and bromine. if so, Baqua would be their only choice. (safely) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 As professionals, such as water bear and I, a specialist in chemistry such as chem geek, we are offering our professional advice, these are the only safe systems, its not just government, its science. There are some who are very leery of science and of government. For some of these folks, reasoned arguements carry no weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFC5 Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 If someone cannot and will not use chlorine or bromine at all, then they need to get rid of their hot tub and/or pool because it seems they are trading one small possibility of a problem with them for a much bigger disease problem by not using something that can properly SANITIZE the water to keep it safe. At least if the spa has an ozone and you shock it AFTER you bathe, you can keep the level of chlorine while you bathe lower. For my pool I throw a 1/4 cup of Dichlor in at night after the last swimmer, and most of it is gone after the sun hits it for a while the next day but at least the levels are lower and is STILL sanitized. I am trying to do the same thing with my spa now, but I know with the much higher temp and 4 people in a tub is like having 200 people in a pool I keep the levels higher for safety sake, but try to have them a little lower at the time of soaking. I am surprised ANY doctor would not advise against a hot tub or pool for someone who should not have contact with chlorine or bromine though. A doctor should know about the need for a proper sanitizer in a spa or pool for health reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 This thread was not only about bromine or chlorine. For both pools and spas there is also Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. It can have some issues, though is easier to manage with a spa than a pool since you can change the water and periodically decontaminate. Also mentioned for the spa was Nature2 (silver ions) with MPS (and occasional chlorine shock). There is also hydrogen peroxide which is not EPA-approved but which is approved in Australia and would also be reasonably sanitary, but it is more challenging to use correctly (you need to use enough, maintain it at a fairly high level, use for spas not exposed to much sunlight). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFC5 Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 She might want to check the spa manual to make sure using hydrogen peroxide does not void the mfg warranty on the spa. I know my manual states using it in my spa would void the warranty, so before considering using that this should be checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 She might want to check the spa manual to make sure using hydrogen peroxide does not void the mfg warranty on the spa. I know my manual states using it in my spa would void the warranty, so before considering using that this should be checked. It's because they are not compatible with some of the plastics used in the spa, chews them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFC5 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 She might want to check the spa manual to make sure using hydrogen peroxide does not void the mfg warranty on the spa. I know my manual states using it in my spa would void the warranty, so before considering using that this should be checked. It's because they are not compatible with some of the plastics used in the spa, chews them up. Is this different on different spas or most in general? I know I have a budget spa so maybe that is the reason why they stated this in the manual. But it might say this in the OP's spa manual as well so I wanted to point that out so she doesn't lose her warranty trying alternatives that include using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 i know arctic has that rule also, I think it is an independent choice for each manufacturer, they can always fall back on "not covered due to poor water chemistry" i just suggest to people they don't use it, and why and do not carry it. They are a FEW people that it is the only thing they can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think there's only one person reporting on this forum who uses it, maybe two. It's not common and is not EPA-approved, but there are products in Australia approved there, though not very many (see this list at the bottom). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy510 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just bought a Hot Spot Relay and am also wanting to minimize chemicals. The dealer said to start it off with 4 Tablespoons of Enhanced Shock. I did, and got sick from soaking in it! It also has Nature 2 installed. I had to empty the spa, refill it and now it doesn't reek of chlorine. I read this whole thread and don't know what to do. Silk balance is tempting, and not too expensive for me. Is it a worthwhile product? I read this on this thread: "The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.". Is MPS the potassium called spa shock oxidizer? If that is all that is needed, is silk balance important? I don't have an ozonater, but it could be added on. Any suggestions for something with the least amount of chemical residue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just bought a Hot Spot Relay and am also wanting to minimize chemicals. The dealer said to start it off with 4 Tablespoons of Enhanced Shock. I did, and got sick from soaking in it! It also has Nature 2 installed. I had to empty the spa, refill it and now it doesn't reek of chlorine. I read this whole thread and don't know what to do. Silk balance is tempting, and not too expensive for me. Is it a worthwhile product? I read this on this thread: "The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.". Is MPS the potassium called spa shock oxidizer? If that is all that is needed, is silk balance important? I don't have an ozonater, but it could be added on. Any suggestions for something with the least amount of chemical residue? Yes, believe it or not...chlorine! Second choice, 3 step bromine using chlorine for the oxidizer. MPS is potassium monopersulfate, commonly known as non chlorine shock. It will sanitizer in conjunction with silver as a catalyst at the hot water temps found in spas but still need chlorine shocking weekly. Bigaunde/peroxide systems are not chemical free Silver/MPS systems are not chemical free "Mineral" systems are not chemical free Ozone is a chemical for that matter (and a toxic one to boot!) Chemical free is a myth Your best and easiest ways to keep your spa sanitized, with the fewest chemicals or problems, is chlorine or bromine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy510 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just bought a Hot Spot Relay and am also wanting to minimize chemicals. The dealer said to start it off with 4 Tablespoons of Enhanced Shock. I did, and got sick from soaking in it! It also has Nature 2 installed. I had to empty the spa, refill it and now it doesn't reek of chlorine. I read this whole thread and don't know what to do. Silk balance is tempting, and not too expensive for me. Is it a worthwhile product? I read this on this thread: "The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.". Is MPS the potassium called spa shock oxidizer? If that is all that is needed, is silk balance important? I don't have an ozonater, but it could be added on. Any suggestions for something with the least amount of chemical residue? Yes, believe it or not...chlorine! Second choice, 3 step bromine using chlorine for the oxidizer. MPS is potassium monopersulfate, commonly known as non chlorine shock. It will sanitizer in conjunction with silver as a catalyst at the hot water temps found in spas but still need chlorine shocking weekly. Bigaunde/peroxide systems are not chemical free Silver/MPS systems are not chemical free "Mineral" systems are not chemical free Ozone is a chemical for that matter (and a toxic one to boot!) Chemical free is a myth Your best and easiest ways to keep your spa sanitized, with the fewest chemicals or problems, is chlorine or bromine. OK, the chlorine shocking weekly, the non-chlorine shock, AND also Nature 2? and, should I use Silk Balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just bought a Hot Spot Relay and am also wanting to minimize chemicals. The dealer said to start it off with 4 Tablespoons of Enhanced Shock. I did, and got sick from soaking in it! It also has Nature 2 installed. I had to empty the spa, refill it and now it doesn't reek of chlorine. I read this whole thread and don't know what to do. Silk balance is tempting, and not too expensive for me. Is it a worthwhile product? I read this on this thread: "The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.". Is MPS the potassium called spa shock oxidizer? If that is all that is needed, is silk balance important? I don't have an ozonater, but it could be added on. Any suggestions for something with the least amount of chemical residue? Yes, believe it or not...chlorine! Second choice, 3 step bromine using chlorine for the oxidizer. MPS is potassium monopersulfate, commonly known as non chlorine shock. It will sanitizer in conjunction with silver as a catalyst at the hot water temps found in spas but still need chlorine shocking weekly. Bigaunde/peroxide systems are not chemical free Silver/MPS systems are not chemical free "Mineral" systems are not chemical free Ozone is a chemical for that matter (and a toxic one to boot!) Chemical free is a myth Your best and easiest ways to keep your spa sanitized, with the fewest chemicals or problems, is chlorine or bromine. OK, the chlorine shocking weekly, the non-chlorine shock, AND also Nature 2? and, should I use Silk Balance? Nature2 with MPS BEFORE AND AFTER each soak with a weekly or more often if needed chlorine shock is a complete sanitizing system. You don't need the silk balance, which is another expense and is not a sanitizer. Be sure to do the Nature 2 PROPERLY and follow the manufacturer's directions or you won't have sanitized water and can have problems. Just realize that you are not "minimizing" chemicals since you are soaking in Silver Nitrate and Sodium Monopersulfate with this system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy510 Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I just bought a Hot Spot Relay and am also wanting to minimize chemicals. The dealer said to start it off with 4 Tablespoons of Enhanced Shock. I did, and got sick from soaking in it! It also has Nature 2 installed. I had to empty the spa, refill it and now it doesn't reek of chlorine. I read this whole thread and don't know what to do. Silk balance is tempting, and not too expensive for me. Is it a worthwhile product? I read this on this thread: "The Silver/MPS system (Nature 2) will probably have less problems in the long run, be easier, and cost less than the biguanide and, if you remember to add the MPS before and after each soak and shock weekly or as needed with chlorine, will provide you with sanitized and safe water.". Is MPS the potassium called spa shock oxidizer? If that is all that is needed, is silk balance important? I don't have an ozonater, but it could be added on. Any suggestions for something with the least amount of chemical residue? Yes, believe it or not...chlorine! Second choice, 3 step bromine using chlorine for the oxidizer. MPS is potassium monopersulfate, commonly known as non chlorine shock. It will sanitizer in conjunction with silver as a catalyst at the hot water temps found in spas but still need chlorine shocking weekly. Bigaunde/peroxide systems are not chemical free Silver/MPS systems are not chemical free "Mineral" systems are not chemical free Ozone is a chemical for that matter (and a toxic one to boot!) Chemical free is a myth Your best and easiest ways to keep your spa sanitized, with the fewest chemicals or problems, is chlorine or bromine. OK, the chlorine shocking weekly, the non-chlorine shock, AND also Nature 2? and, should I use Silk Balance? Nature2 with MPS BEFORE AND AFTER each soak with a weekly or more often if needed chlorine shock is a complete sanitizing system. You don't need the silk balance, which is another expense and is not a sanitizer. Be sure to do the Nature 2 PROPERLY and follow the manufacturer's directions or you won't have sanitized water and can have problems. Just realize that you are not "minimizing" chemicals since you are soaking in Silver Nitrate and Sodium Monopersulfate with this system. Thank you for the response - my goal is not to fool myself into thinking I'm using less chemicals just because I don't see them. I'm looking for what would minimize my true exposure - how much chemical load my body absorbs. From this thread my impression is that you actually take in the least amount of chemicals by using chlorine without Nature 2. Is this correct? And, I was thinking of silk balance just because we are so busy and it seems overwhelming to get this all worked out. Maybe using that AND regular Clorox bleach as a shock? No "non chlorine" shock, no nature 2? I really appreciate your responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 There are no magic shortcuts to spa maintenance. You need a good test kit and need to test the water. Period. Bromine is a bit less work than chlorine but a bit more expensive and involves more chemicals. It is more forgiving for a beginner since it is effective at a wider pH range and combined bromine is an effective sanitizer while combined chlorine is not (combined halogens are the santizer that has combined with organics in the water.) As far as chemicals in your tub the most dangerous is dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO. It is found in every hot tub and swimming pool and just a small amount inhaled into the lungs can be fatal. IF I have scared you with DHMO please read this VERY CAREFULLY and think about "chemical exposure"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 There are no magic shortcuts to spa maintenance. You need a good test kit and need to test the water. Period. Bromine is a bit less work than chlorine but a bit more expensive and involves more chemicals. It is more forgiving for a beginner since it is effective at a wider pH range and combined bromine is an effective sanitizer while combined chlorine is not (combined halogens are the santizer that has combined with organics in the water.) As far as chemicals in your tub the most dangerous is dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO. It is found in every hot tub and swimming pool and just a small amount inhaled into the lungs can be fatal. IF I have scared you with DHMO please read this VERY CAREFULLY and think about "chemical exposure"! Oh my goodness, I have this everywhere. I even just bought property in Florida that is very close to vast amounts of it...what am I to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 We talk about Nature2 with MPS as an alternative on this forum and it's the only EPA-approved non-halogen approach other than Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. However, in terms of low cost, nothing beats the http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23090'>Dichlor-then-bleach method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TdiDave Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Humans have been using chlorine as a disinfectant for 192 years, amazing how some still dismiss what it does and can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.