To Foam Or Not To Foam?

[LAguy]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

[tampagrl70]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

New Spas do not come insulated like the old ones cause that information is correct, your main loss is from the top so the cover is going to be very important and you shouldnt have an issue with the R factor on that since you live in LA. I say just get "foam in a can" from home depot if you want to insulate

Jen

[njmurvin]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

I got the full foam option with my Marquis Everyday 660. While it may be true that the milder climate means less benefit from the full foam, we in the LA area suffer some of the highest marginal KW-hr rates in the nation (.39 in my highest tier, IIRC). So, the cost of inefficiency is big in this area.

Secondly, I have read that the foam actually serves to provide stability by restricting movement of the internal plumbing and may actually help to prevent leaks. I guess it makes sense that it might reduce vibration around the jets and their plumbing joints.

I had a Sundance for over 20 years that was fully foamed and it never had a leak until its end of life. Because of other failures (heater/pump and/or control panel) I never started troubleshooting the leak.

From what I understand, it isn't all that much harder for a pro to troubleshoot a leak in a foamed spa. For me, exposing the sides of the spa will be a bigger issue if that happens as I have mine buried in a deck.

[Dr. Spa]

If these are the exact words the first dealer said to you, I'd think he's an idiot. First, heat does not evaporate. Liquids evaporate.

"Heat rises", is a great misunderstanding, and is incorrect. Heat, DOES NOT RISE.

As a gas or liquid absorbs heat energy, it will expand, thereby becoming lighter than the cooler around it, and will rise. It is NOT heat that is rising, but a heated substance, that is warmer than other substance around it. This is called, convection. Once this convected substance hits a barrier, say, the underside of a spa cover, the convection stops and conduction takes over. Conduction is the transfer of heat energy from one molecule to the next (think about a handle of a cast iron frying pan getting hot). Conduction occurs up, sideways and down relatively equally. e.g. heat will be lost out the top (spa cover) about as much per square foot, as out the sides (given equal insulating values)....and for that matter, out the bottom.

The average annual temperature in LA (365 days, 24 hours per day) is 63.0. A spa is heated to an average of 102.... for a difference of about 40 degrees. To put this in perspective....if you carried these numbers over to a home. It would be like heating the home to 68 degrees, with the average outdoor temperature of 28 degrees.

If you lived in an area where the average temps were 28 degrees, how would you want your home insulated?

FYI...Anchorage Alaske, average temps ...............35.9.... Fairbanks, 26.9

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

New Spas do not come insulated like the old ones cause that information is correct, your main loss is from the top so the cover is going to be very important and you shouldnt have an issue with the R factor on that since you live in LA. I say just get "foam in a can" from home depot if you want to insulate

Jen

1) The first dealer (or salesperson) that you talked to is flat out WRONG in his assessment. A good cover is a must but you need the sides and bottom insulated as well.

2) You live in LA. It may not be as cold as the North Pole but as Dr Spa notes the temp outside is usually much colder than the spa temp. You need a well insulated spas. Besides, the rate you pay for energy is not cheap so you may need it more than some colder cities with cheaper rates.

3) There are spas out there that are well insulated today just as they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. Get a spa that is well insulated; ignore those that just seem to have a story about how they don't need the insulation.

[david_bilton]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

I got the full foam option with my Marquis Everyday 660. While it may be true that the milder climate means less benefit from the full foam, we in the LA area suffer some of the highest marginal KW-hr rates in the nation (.39 in my highest tier, IIRC). So, the cost of inefficiency is big in this area.

Secondly, I have read that the foam actually serves to provide stability by restricting movement of the internal plumbing and may actually help to prevent leaks. I guess it makes sense that it might reduce vibration around the jets and their plumbing joints.

I had a Sundance for over 20 years that was fully foamed and it never had a leak until its end of life. Because of other failures (heater/pump and/or control panel) I never started troubleshooting the leak.

From what I understand, it isn't all that much harder for a pro to troubleshoot a leak in a foamed spa. For me, exposing the sides of the spa will be a bigger issue if that happens as I have mine buried in a deck.

i second this second statement foam does stop the pipes from vibrations and it also supports the pipes try running your garden hose coiled up then pick it up a lot of weight in that hose now think of a few years from now without the foam all that weight would be hanging from the fittings and they will be stressed so how long befor the thing starts to leak. as for leaks a real spa tech has the tools and know how to deal with these issues if they arise

[tampagrl70]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

I got the full foam option with my Marquis Everyday 660. While it may be true that the milder climate means less benefit from the full foam, we in the LA area suffer some of the highest marginal KW-hr rates in the nation (.39 in my highest tier, IIRC). So, the cost of inefficiency is big in this area.

Secondly, I have read that the foam actually serves to provide stability by restricting movement of the internal plumbing and may actually help to prevent leaks. I guess it makes sense that it might reduce vibration around the jets and their plumbing joints.

I had a Sundance for over 20 years that was fully foamed and it never had a leak until its end of life. Because of other failures (heater/pump and/or control panel) I never started troubleshooting the leak.

From what I understand, it isn't all that much harder for a pro to troubleshoot a leak in a foamed spa. For me, exposing the sides of the spa will be a bigger issue if that happens as I have mine buried in a deck.

lol your evaporation of water comes from not sealing it with a proper cover and that is a fact! The problem with full insulation and I cant believe anyone is doing that anymore i KNOW PL (Premium Leisure) doesnt for sure (i go to that factory) but sounds like the R factor is important due to your high energy in LA (i dont live there so I dont know) The problem with insulating is if you spring a leak it will be a mess and time before finding it. This is the MAIN reason they are insulating before plumbing spas. I know these other comments are great from very skilled men but I know what I am talking about too I been doing this for 7 yrs and seen and heard it all. Food Color ever so softly in the water in front of each jet without making a ripple in the water to determine where a leak is (ever so gently!)

Jen

[LAguy]

Wow. You guys are amazing. Thanks for helping a newbie!

[Dr. Spa]

lol your evaporation of water comes from not sealing it with a proper cover and that is a fact! The problem with full insulation and I cant believe anyone is doing that anymore i KNOW PL (Premium Leisure) doesnt for sure (i go to that factory) but sounds like the R factor is important due to your high energy in LA (i dont live there so I dont know) The problem with insulating is if you spring a leak it will be a mess and time before finding it. This is the MAIN reason they are insulating before plumbing spas. I know these other comments are great from very skilled men but I know what I am talking about too I been doing this for 7 yrs and seen and heard it all. Food Color ever so softly in the water in front of each jet without making a ripple in the water to determine where a leak is (ever so gently!)

Jen

ummmm, ahhhhhh. Wow. I'm, somewhat... speechless.

[PoolSpaGuy30]

I have had two different dealers telling me two different things about getting full foam.

I live in Los Angeles and one says you "Absolutely do not need it because 90% of heat evaporates from the top. For the little bit that evaporates through the sides, which would be about $2.00 every month, it is worth it to be able to access the equipment whenever needed. If there are leaks it is very difficult to find them with full foam."

A dealer from a different company that has many tubs with full foam already installed said "It is absolutely needed even in LA because it makes a huge difference in energy efficiency."

Very confused! Thoughts anyone?

I got the full foam option with my Marquis Everyday 660. While it may be true that the milder climate means less benefit from the full foam, we in the LA area suffer some of the highest marginal KW-hr rates in the nation (.39 in my highest tier, IIRC). So, the cost of inefficiency is big in this area.

Secondly, I have read that the foam actually serves to provide stability by restricting movement of the internal plumbing and may actually help to prevent leaks. I guess it makes sense that it might reduce vibration around the jets and their plumbing joints.

I had a Sundance for over 20 years that was fully foamed and it never had a leak until its end of life. Because of other failures (heater/pump and/or control panel) I never started troubleshooting the leak.

From what I understand, it isn't all that much harder for a pro to troubleshoot a leak in a foamed spa. For me, exposing the sides of the spa will be a bigger issue if that happens as I have mine buried in a deck.

lol your evaporation of water comes from not sealing it with a proper cover and that is a fact! The problem with full insulation and I cant believe anyone is doing that anymore i KNOW PL (Premium Leisure) doesnt for sure (i go to that factory) but sounds like the R factor is important due to your high energy in LA (i dont live there so I dont know) The problem with insulating is if you spring a leak it will be a mess and time before finding it. This is the MAIN reason they are insulating before plumbing spas. I know these other comments are great from very skilled men but I know what I am talking about too I been doing this for 7 yrs and seen and heard it all. Food Color ever so softly in the water in front of each jet without making a ripple in the water to determine where a leak is (ever so gently!)

Jen

not to be rude but what on gods green earth are you talking about? what if the leak is in a drain line, are you going to dye test around the jets to find that one? makes no sense at all, you add dye to turn the water a solid color so you can trace it through the foam, and also to OP there is a reason all the top brands fully foam there spas, bottom line is over time you will save money esp. in CA where the rates are incredibly high

[Mikey_in_NY]

lol your evaporation of water comes from not sealing it with a proper cover and that is a fact! The problem with full insulation and I cant believe anyone is doing that anymore i KNOW PL (Premium Leisure) doesnt for sure (i go to that factory) but sounds like the R factor is important due to your high energy in LA (i dont live there so I dont know) The problem with insulating is if you spring a leak it will be a mess and time before finding it. This is the MAIN reason they are insulating before plumbing spas. I know these other comments are great from very skilled men but I know what I am talking about too I been doing this for 7 yrs and seen and heard it all. Food Color ever so softly in the water in front of each jet without making a ripple in the water to determine where a leak is (ever so gently!)

Jen

That's an incorrect and biased statement. Why do you think many (most) leading manufacturers use full foam insulation? Just to p*ss owners and techs off when they get a leak?

[THE SPA GUY]

Wow,

The statements from Jen , that was a big swing. like hitting a baseball deep but goes foul way foul... I sell both types of spas thermal chamber and full foam, i like the full foam styles better...there are true statements that full foam supports the pipes and no heat loss from the sides. if you are in cold weather in the winter like we are in Spokane, and you lose power for an extended period of time, the thermal chamber will be the first to freeze,,, if the thermal chamber is built right, like the main lines being run on the insulated floor bed you do not have the worry of supported the lines, unfortunately you have a lot of those brands out there were the main pipe is susepended around the tub with glue joints that will fail....in L.A do you need foam maybe not . but with th cost of energy down there it may be a good idea unless you get a great thermal chamber spa,,, i did like the theory of heat loss up throught the cover,,, thats why the big manufacturers use great covers and no heat loss,,, you loss heat when you are using the spa... And the theory of if a foam spa leaks thats a big IF i do not see that happen very often , but when there is we have tools to fix quickly, We have fixed both,,,,,,so i would not just buy spa foam or not to foam....But i would look at major manufacturers. D1, Sundance, Jacuzzi, MArquis, Hot Springs, Clearwater. to just name a few....

[LAguy]

All interesting points. Although I checked my energy KWH and the top is $.13 . Not as bad as $.39

Is there any benefit from a lower amount of noise if it is fully foamed?

By the way I am looking into an LA Spas Heet. I've wet tested all of the big brands and this model seems to have it all. Plus all the fun bells and whistles (I know, I know).

http://www.laspas.com/spa_builder.php?model_id=14

[spatech (the unreal one)]

All interesting points. Although I checked my energy KWH and the top is $.13 . Not as bad as $.39

Is there any benefit from a lower amount of noise if it is fully foamed?

By the way I am looking into an LA Spas Heet. I've wet tested all of the big brands and this model seems to have it all. Plus all the fun bells and whistles (I know, I know).

http://www.laspas.com/spa_builder.php?model_id=14

The full foam version will be quieter. Additionally, if noise is a concern or the spa is going to be outside a bedroom or on a deck which can amplify the noise you're going to want a spa that uses a circ pump for filtering.

[THE SPA GUY]

LAguy

I see you said you wet tested all the big brands, I am curious on what do you call the big brands and what models did you wetest,,, i would definately go with the 24 hour circ pump, i do fins it interesting that on the build you have to pick your OPTIONAL ozone system....With the wetest you did what did you like better than the others you wettested,,, i am just curious,, to wetest all the big guys thats at least 10 brands, i very seldonm see someone wettest more than 2 or 3 ... Don't get me wrong i am not trying to talk you out of this brand. I just not quite getting your buying process on this one. it otherwise looks like a decent spa....

[Stuart A]

Ours has a circulation pump which is very quiet so that when the spa requires heating one of the main pumps does not have to switch on. It also puts ozone in all the time and offers a bit of filteration.

As part of the filter cycle pumps 2 and 3 purge for a minute each then pump one filters the rest of the water for the remainder of the time. This can be programmed one or two times a day and the length of time is adjustable in 10 minute increments.

[LAguy]

LAguy

I see you said you wet tested all the big brands, I am curious on what do you call the big brands and what models did you wetest,,, i would definately go with the 24 hour circ pump, i do fins it interesting that on the build you have to pick your OPTIONAL ozone system....With the wetest you did what did you like better than the others you wettested,,, i am just curious,, to wetest all the big guys thats at least 10 brands, i very seldonm see someone wettest more than 2 or 3 ... Don't get me wrong i am not trying to talk you out of this brand. I just not quite getting your buying process on this one. it otherwise looks like a decent spa....

I wet-tested the following brands: Caldera, Sundance, Artesian, Resort Spas, Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, LA Spas and D1. I would say that is some pretty thorough investigation. I know all of the features and options on these brands.

As far as the ozone system with LA Spas it is part of the Ultra Water Management System which includes the 24-circ pump. Not everyone wants ozone so they give you the option which is nice. The filters can literally be machine washed and can last 1-2 years depending on use. Really great idea and patented by LA Spas. The jets are really amazing and the seating is more comfortable of any brand I tried. If you prefer a more contoured seat, this spa fit my body best. The lounge chair feels like you are sitting in a cock pit of some sort with heel indents so you don't float away and HUGE foot jets. The Ultimate Water FX are beautiful streams of water like you see in high end pools. Waterfalls through pillows so your neck is kept warm. They really thought of everything.

The sales person really convinced me not to get full foam. He said they have not been putting full foam on these spas for over 20 years unless requested and you are in a super cold climate. He explained about the way they were made which is more than I can understand, but at some point you have to trust somebody. If they could make a few hundred bucks off me, why wouldn't they? He threw in a 5" thermal cover to quell my concerns about energy loss.

So they are making it starting Monday and should be delivered in two weeks. I will let you know how it goes!

[hottubdan]

LAguy

I see you said you wet tested all the big brands, I am curious on what do you call the big brands and what models did you wetest,,, i would definately go with the 24 hour circ pump, i do fins it interesting that on the build you have to pick your OPTIONAL ozone system....With the wetest you did what did you like better than the others you wettested,,, i am just curious,, to wetest all the big guys thats at least 10 brands, i very seldonm see someone wettest more than 2 or 3 ... Don't get me wrong i am not trying to talk you out of this brand. I just not quite getting your buying process on this one. it otherwise looks like a decent spa....

I wet-tested the following brands: Caldera, Sundance, Artesian, Resort Spas, Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, LA Spas and D1. I would say that is some pretty thorough investigation. I know all of the features and options on these brands.

As far as the ozone system with LA Spas it is part of the Ultra Water Management System which includes the 24-circ pump. Not everyone wants ozone so they give you the option which is nice. The filters can literally be machine washed and can last 1-2 years depending on use. Really great idea and patented by LA Spas. The jets are really amazing and the seating is more comfortable of any brand I tried. If you prefer a more contoured seat, this spa fit my body best. The lounge chair feels like you are sitting in a cock pit of some sort with heel indents so you don't float away and HUGE foot jets. The Ultimate Water FX are beautiful streams of water like you see in high end pools. Waterfalls through pillows so your neck is kept warm. They really thought of everything.

The sales person really convinced me not to get full foam. He said they have not been putting full foam on these spas for over 20 years unless requested and you are in a super cold climate. He explained about the way they were made which is more than I can understand, but at some point you have to trust somebody. If they could make a few hundred bucks off me, why wouldn't they? He threw in a 5" thermal cover to quell my concerns about energy loss.

So they are making it starting Monday and should be delivered in two weeks. I will let you know how it goes!

This is all quite amusing. For veterans, this discussion is 10+ years old.

The thicker cover is going to make minimal or no difference. First heat goes up. If it cannot escape that way, it will go out the sides. Where else is it going to go?

I am curious. You are in CA. Did they tell you the non foamed version is CEC compliant?

[Stuart A]

The thicker cover is going to make minimal or no difference. First heat goes up. If it cannot escape that way, it will go out the sides. Where else is it going to go?

It will go out of the sides if there is no insulation. LA Guy is still buying spa with insulation just not full foam.

If the salesman wanted to earn a bit extra he would of tried to talk him into buying the full foam option.

The cover will therefore make a difference, I know when I upgraded mine it reduced energy consumption.

[LAguy]

The thicker cover is going to make minimal or no difference. First heat goes up. If it cannot escape that way, it will go out the sides. Where else is it going to go?

It will go out of the sides if there is no insulation. LA Guy is still buying spa with insulation just not full foam.

If the salesman wanted to earn a bit extra he would of tried to talk him into buying the full foam option.

The cover will therefore make a difference, I know when I upgraded mine it reduced energy consumption.

Stuart do you have the full foam?

As far as being CEC compliant, he showed me an independent study that did state it was compliant.

[Stuart A]

Stuart do you have the full foam?

No.

Mine has foam sprayed all around the shell and it has perimeter insulation.

[njmurvin]

All interesting points. Although I checked my energy KWH and the top is $.13 . Not as bad as $.39

Is there any benefit from a lower amount of noise if it is fully foamed?

By the way I am looking into an LA Spas Heet. I've wet tested all of the big brands and this model seems to have it all. Plus all the fun bells and whistles (I know, I know).

http://www.laspas.com/spa_builder.php?model_id=14

I misspoke before. My marginal rate (tier 5) is .31 - not .39. Still, pretty pricey. Even though your rate is now low, the power consumed by a spa could push you into the next tier. You likely have DWP as your provider. I have So Cal Edison as I reside in Ventura County.

[THE SPA GUY]

LAguy,

i am glad you did some homework,,, but i couple of remarks just do not make sense to me, i am originally from Orange county, so i can understand going with a thermal chamber insulation, i am now up in SPokane right now temp is 19 degrees, i sell both styles. i would rather have a full foam spa in my temp. . The comment that they have not used in 20 years, i amm assuming LA Spas has not done that... but the guys who have been doing it longer than anyone else do...D1, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Hot Springs, And what is funny these are all mde in SOuthern Califronia.The cover thickness, i have a 4-2 taper cover on my personal D1, there is not heat loss even at the seam , so going to a 5" thick to a taper , which i sell also i do not believe that helps, IMO. The jets they use are the same ones on most brands,,. I am not arguing that LA Spas are not a good brand, If it fit you well then great , you will have a great spa that fits, you. enjoy it when you get it....happy tubing

[Stuart A]

LAguy,

The comment that they have not used in 20 years, i amm assuming LA Spas has not done that... but the guys who have been doing it longer than anyone else do...D1, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Hot Springs,

That must of been a misquote because my dealer told me that LA Spas started in the 1970's. I just checked on their website and it was in 1976 when they started.

[Mark SC]

What would the disadvantage be to full foam other than cost? Is it a big inconvenience to good spa techs? I doubt it--certainly not enough of an issue to overcome the large energy bills you will have if you don't insulate the sides. Even my cheap spa (Dreammaker) has full foam. I would surely expect a more expensive spa to have it.