Out With The Tri-Chlor, In With The Household Bleach

[Skidood]

Thanks to info from chemgeek and troublefreepools.com , I am considering using unscented household bleach instead of tri-chlor pucks for daily chlorination. I will keep an eye on CYA and add tri-chlor if needed. BUT is it really cheaper to use household bleach? According to the pool calculator, our pool need 4.4 litres of bleach to bring the FC level up by 2 ppm...a 5 litre jug of unscented bleach costs around 4-6 bucks, does it not? Adding 2 trichlor pucks will do the same thing which I doubt costs that much...thoughts? I'm in Ontario, where's a good place to buy cheap unscented bleach? Thanks!

[codebrown]

I buy the largest size generic bleach at our local Home Depot. The cost to me is not the issue at any level. The hassle of going to a pool store alone would keep me using a product that is ubiquitous and extremely safe to handle. Yes, you use more per dose, but convenience for me is the issue. I can't tell my wife to drop by the pool supply store for sanitizer at the far north end of town, even if she knew what to buy and wasn't going to get sold a raft of other garbage (these are the same guys that demand you shock your pool every week no matter the bather load) but I can always have her grab a bottle of clorox for a couple bucks.

[chem geek]

I don't know how much bleach costs in Ontario, but it's roughly $1.25 (U.S. dollars)for a 96-ounce (3/4 gallon or 2.8 liters) jug. When comparing against Trichlor, you need to add in the cost of pH Up product since Trichlor is acidic and requires such adjustment. An old post I wrote comparing the costs of chlorine sources is here where bleach and chlorinating liquid are less expensive than Trichlor when accounting for the pH adjustment products.

Clorox bleach in Canada is often under the Javex brand. You can buy a 2.8 liter (96-ounce) jug of Ultra Javex at Canadian Tire here for $2.49 (Canadian). You are right that this isn't cheap. The house brand at Canadian Tire is here for $0.99 which is much more reasonable. I'm not sure if it's 6% bleach -- it could be 3% though usually "Ultra Bleach" is 6%. See if any pool stores or hardware/big-box stores carry chlorinating liquid which is usually 10% or 12.5% and may be less expensive relative to its strength.

[kc pool]

I don't know how much bleach costs in Ontario, but it's roughly $1.25 (U.S. dollars)for a 96-ounce (3/4 gallon or 2.8 liters) jug. When comparing against Trichlor, you need to add in the cost of pH Up product since Trichlor is acidic and requires such adjustment. An old post I wrote comparing the costs of chlorine sources is here where bleach and chlorinating liquid are less expensive than Trichlor when accounting for the pH adjustment products.

Clorox bleach in Canada is often under the Javex brand. You can buy a 2.8 liter (96-ounce) jug of Ultra Javex at Canadian Tire here for $2.49 (Canadian). You are right that this isn't cheap. The house brand at Canadian Tire is here for $0.99 which is much more reasonable. I'm not sure if it's 6% bleach -- it could be 3% though usually "Ultra Bleach" is 6%. See if any pool stores or hardware/big-box stores carry chlorinating liquid which is usually 10% or 12.5% and may be less expensive relative to its strength.

I also have another suggestion for keeping chemicals cheap.Salt generator. The salt is about 6-8 dollars a bag and is really easy to take care of. The only problem is the the upfront cost. Just a suggestion have a great day!

[Skidood]

OK thanks...Javex and Chlorox have a noticeable bleachy smell, yet this liquid sodium hypo I shocked with had no smell whatsoever which I prefer...this is why I keep saying unscented....am I imagining things or is it possible to buy cheap bleach which doesnt smell like Chlorox or Javex? The stuff I bought at Home Hardware was 7 bucks for 5 litres and was labelled as a shock product which could also be used for daily chlorination...but it's too pricey.

[chem geek]

The bleach you buy should be "unscented", but that just means it doesn't have any ADDED fragrance. Bleach is NOT scent-free -- it smells like bleach since hypochlorous acid will outgas from the bleach container. If it doesn't (I'm talking about original product, not when diluted in the pool), it's probably so weak as to be ineffective. When you use this liquid sodium hypo with no smell, does it result in a measurable FC rise in the pool when measured within an hour?

[Skidood]

When you use this liquid sodium hypo with no smell, does it result in a measurable FC rise in the pool when measured within an hour?

I didnt check FC levels after adding. I was out of town and didnt check it until 2 days later. It was till close to 10 ppm. When I added though I did dilute the few drops that was left in the bottom of the jug and poured it on a test strip which immedialtely turned dark purple as it should have. Why do you ask?

[chem geek]

I was just thinking that if it didn't smell it might be very weak. Pure stuff on a test strip would still register, but in a pool if it was down to 1% strength or something like that then you might not notice a bleach smell with the product, but it wouldn't raise the FC level in the pool as much as you would expect if it were 6% strength.

[Skidood]

I was just thinking that if it didn't smell it might be very weak. Pure stuff on a test strip would still register, but in a pool if it was down to 1% strength or something like that then you might not notice a bleach smell with the product, but it wouldn't raise the FC level in the pool as much as you would expect if it were 6% strength.

Based on the label, I needed to add 14.6 litres to superchlorinate a pool our size. Using the pool calculator, the product would have to have been 10% strength, I forgot what is said on the label. I will probably buy another jug and re-visit this (do another sniff test) as I swear we noticed zero bleachy smell on our skin after being in 7 PPM or from the product itself. And it said sodium hypochlorite on the label, I just dont know why it didnt smell like anything, yet worked fine.

Having said that, it looks like I will save money by buying regular bleach, I found it sold for 1.99 for 5 litres of ultra bleach (at least Im pretty sure it said Ultra bleach) at the local Price Chopper (grocery store)

[quantumchromodynamics]

we noticed zero bleachy smell on our skin after being in 7 PPM or from the product itself. And it said sodium hypochlorite on the label, I just dont know why it didnt smell like anything, yet worked fine.

Liquid chlorine or bleach (Sodium hypochlorite) will not have much smell at all.

You should not expect to smell like chlorine after swimming. The smell that people usually refer to as "Chlorine smell" is due to chloramines. You should have an FAS-DPD test kit to test for FC and CC. CC means combined chlorine or chloramine.

[chem geek]

What we're talking about is concentrated bleach in the container. There shouldn't be a smell when in the pool, but if you don't smell anything from putting your nose to the open container of bleach, then that is strange.

[Skidood]

I detected no smell straight from the conainer. Also, on a fairly recent test, I have found that CC was running about 5 PPM above FC.

Just for fun I will do another CC test today. Also will be picking up a few jugs of laundry bleach and one more jug of the pool sodium hypo shock with no smell.

[chem geek]

A CC of 5 ppm is extraordinarily high -- you said CC above FC but I assume you are using a FAS-DPD kit which measures CC after FC so this means 5 ppm CC or that you meant the TC was 5 ppm higher than FC which means the CC is 5 ppm. TC = FC + CC.

[Skidood]

OK sniff test #2....liquid sodium hypo shock product smelled the same or slightly less than regular household bleach....the fact that it's twice as strong (10.8%) didnt seem to matter.

Guess my sniffer isnt too sensitive...which I guess proves what my wife says about how I can sleep soundly while regularly and unknowingly producing noxious odours in the bed, while she has to run to the living room in disgust.

FC vs. CC....using brand new test strips my FC is around 4 today, and my TC or CC cant be measured because I have given up on my test kit..(the one where you add drops of orthotolidine) I dont know how old this test kit is, as it came with the house...Maybe I need to get a new botttle of orthotolidine seeing as how whenever I try to use it, the resulting color change is a dark yellow, way off the comparison chart RIGHT AWAY..strange, I even get the dark yellow result immediately even when adding one drop instead of 4.

[quantumchromodynamics]

You need to get the FAS-DPD chlorine test. What you have is not going to work.

[Skidood]

Well, I would like to get a new test kit, but since our pool doesnt leave us smelling like chlorine anymore, I'm not overly concerned with total chlorine readings right now. I noticed more of a residual skin smell when I was using the tri-chlor pucks. Since our CYA level is perfect, I will use household bleach for the rest of the season.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that you are vastly underestimating the importance of good, reliable test information.

I highly recommend that you get a FAS-DPD chlorine test kit.

Judging your chemistry by smelling yourself and others is not a good choice.

Your OTO result is indicating that you have a problem.

[Skidood]

Judging your chemistry by smelling yourself and others is not a good choice.

OK, I hope you were just trying to be funny, mister. I would like to get a good test kit and probably fairly soon, but right now, why would I be concerned about excessive chloramine or high TC when I am marvelling at how the pool and our skin has virtually no chlorine smell? (with FC at 4-5)

Also I get the water tested at the pool store and TC results have not been an issue although it was CYA, TA, and pH I was mostly interested in. The last test I had done came back with FC and TC both at 4 PPM being equal, as shown on the computer printout, which made me think they didn't actually test the TC.

[chem geek]

Test strips can be very inaccurate, especially for the CYA test and they don't test for Calcium Hardness (CH) though that's not an issue for vinyl pools (unless it's very high). If you don't know the FC and CYA accurately, then algae can grow faster than chlorine can kill it or at the other extreme the active chlorine can be too high so that it oxidizes swimsuits, skin and hair faster than necessary. A proper test kit, such as the Taylor K-2006 or the TF-100 not only lets you know what is really going on when things are going well, but it also handles situations when you need to shock where regular chlorine tests don't work well at all.

Of course, it's your pool and you can just go along until some problem occurs, but it's much easier to prevent problems than to fix them and using a proper test kit is the easiest way to prevent problems.

Unfortunately, you are in Ontario, Canada and the K-2006 is VERY expensive there as shown here (because of the exclusive distributor Taylor has in Canada) and right now they are out-of-stock anyway. If you are able to come to the U.S. to buy the K-2006 or to pick it up if you buy it mail order, then that would be best, but it's understandable if that isn't practical.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Judging your chemistry by smelling yourself and others is not a good choice.

OK, I hope you were just trying to be funny, mister. I would like to get a good test kit and probably fairly soon, but right now, why would I be concerned about excessive chloramine or high TC when I am marvelling at how the pool and our skin has virtually no chlorine smell? (with FC at 4-5)

No, I am not joking at all. Here is what you said:

Well, I would like to get a new test kit, but since our pool doesnt leave us smelling like chlorine anymore, I'm not overly concerned with total chlorine readings right now.

You are judging your chlorine by how people smell. That is not a good thing to do. You might think that you can judge your chemistry by how the water looks or smells, but this is not sound methodology.

[Skidood]

I can't disagree with that. I will admit the only measurement I havent worried about yet is CC.

I will get a couple tests done at the pool stores maybe this week, but will wait for a little while before spending the money on a good test kit, seeing as how I just blew $$$$$ on an RC airplane. Now stop arguing with me.

[Bugman1400]

The 192oz jugs of bleach for me are getting heavier and heavier and are a real pain to buy from the store and load into my plastic storage closet. Is there a problem with using the shock packets. I think they are usually ~73% Hypochlorite. It would seem to me that these are also cheaper, but I may be wrong. I think they are about $4 a pack, but I usually get several packs for free at the beginning of the season from the pool store. Do these packets have CYA that I have to worry about?

[chem geek]

Those shock packets are probably Calcium Hypochlorite, aka Cal-Hypo. They do not contain Cyanuric Acid (CYA), but will increase Calcium Hardness (CH). The following are chemical rules of fact that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it will also increase Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it will also increase CYA by 9 ppm.

For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it will also increase Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

If your CH is currently low, then you can certainly use the Cal-Hypo as a more concentrated (by weight) source of chlorine so would be less to carry. If your pool has some water dilution from summer rains and backwashing, you could even use Trichlor once in a while as well. You could also see if there is a pool store or big-box store that carries 12.5% or 10% chlorinating liquid that would be about half as much you'd need to buy each time so less total weight to carry (or the same weight less frequently).

Cal-Hypo can be slow to dissolve so you may need to pre-dissolve it in a bucket of water prior to adding it to the pool. If your pool is plaster and already properly saturated with calcium carbonate (i.e. has a saturation index near zero), then adding the Cal-Hypo may produce some clouding that will eventually dissipate as the product gets thoroughly mixed in the pool. Note that you can get away with using Cal-Hypo for quite a while since doubling the CH from 300 to 600 ppm only increases the saturation index by 0.3 and 300 ppm CH is around 7 months of Cal-Hypo use assuming 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage. So it is possible to use it for a season and have winter rains dilute your water by half to get your CH back down.

If you want automatic dosing of chlorine without having to carry any, you should consider getting a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) system, though that has up-front costs.

[waterbear]

and my TC or CC cant be measured because I have given up on my test kit..(the one where you add drops of orthotolidine) I dont know how old this test kit is, as it came with the house...Maybe I need to get a new botttle of orthotolidine seeing as how whenever I try to use it, the resulting color change is a dark yellow, way off the comparison chart RIGHT AWAY..strange, I even get the dark yellow result immediately even when adding one drop instead of 4.

OTO (Orthotolidine) ONLY tests total chlorine, not FC or CC! Period. The instructions often givne to read immediantely for FC and then wait 3 minutes an read for TA DO NOT WORK!

If the color is turning dark yellow after one drop it means your chlorine levels are VERY HIGH! High enough to bleach out the results of test strips and DPD tests without diluting your sample with distilled water first. This can lead you to believe that there is no chlorine in the water when, in reality, the chlorine is very high.

[Bugman1400]

and my TC or CC cant be measured because I have given up on my test kit..(the one where you add drops of orthotolidine) I dont know how old this test kit is, as it came with the house...Maybe I need to get a new botttle of orthotolidine seeing as how whenever I try to use it, the resulting color change is a dark yellow, way off the comparison chart RIGHT AWAY..strange, I even get the dark yellow result immediately even when adding one drop instead of 4.

OTO (Orthotolidine) ONLY tests total chlorine, not FC or CC! Period. The instructions often givne to read immediantely for FC and then wait 3 minutes an read for TA DO NOT WORK!

If the color is turning dark yellow after one drop it means your chlorine levels are VERY HIGH! High enough to bleach out the results of test strips and DPD tests without diluting your sample with distilled water first. This can lead you to believe that there is no chlorine in the water when, in reality, the chlorine is very high.

Interesting. What would you recommend to read the FC? The Taylor kits take too long. Seems like I've read previous posts about a hand-held electronic device that is good for reading FC and pH.