Confusion About Pumps, Horsepower, And Gpms

[hot_water]

To be very, very honest. One of our staff members here in Bozeman just had a neighbor who took delivery of a Costco hot tub recently. He couldn't help but visit the neighbor and help them out as the spa was delivered to their drive way. So he helped them get it to the backyard and started. He said the internal cavity of the spa was basically empty, and essentially just had a 1/2 to 3/4 inch foam insulation on the cabinet of the spa.

Sounds like Strong Evolution tub. It's a perimeter insulated tub. The cavity is supposed to be empty - same principle as an Arctic. You know that, Jeremiah. So how "very, very honest" is that? The Strong has 1-1/2" to 2" of insulation in the access panels, and two to four inches elsewhere. This info has also been posted here elsewhere.

Why do you believe it's necessary to send a pot-shot FUD bullet disguised as being helpful? Why not rely on selling your Hotspring products on their own merits and value proposition, and trust in thier superiority and your value-add as a dealer to win you the business?

[JerimiahR]

To be very, very honest. One of our staff members here in Bozeman just had a neighbor who took delivery of a Costco hot tub recently. He couldn't help but visit the neighbor and help them out as the spa was delivered to their drive way. So he helped them get it to the backyard and started. He said the internal cavity of the spa was basically empty, and essentially just had a 1/2 to 3/4 inch foam insulation on the cabinet of the spa.

Sounds like Strong Evolution tub. It's a perimeter insulated tub. The cavity is supposed to be empty - same principle as an Arctic. You know that, Jeremiah. So how "very, very honest" is that? The Strong has 1-1/2" to 2" of insulation in the access panels, and two to four inches elsewhere. This info has also been posted here elsewhere.

Why do you believe it's necessary to send a pot-shot FUD bullet disguised as being helpful? Why not rely on selling your Hotspring products on their own merits and value proposition, and trust in thier superiority and your value-add as a dealer to win you the business?

LOL Wow, easy there. To be very honest, I don't see the type of "insulation" I described as insulation. In a cold climate like Montana, you don't skimp on insulation in your house, or anywhere else. So why do so in a hot tub that's meant to keep water at 102 degrees all the time? On warm nights our over night temperatures are in the teens, and can easily get -20F depending on weather conditions or location.

As a Hot Spring dealer, not all of my spas are insulated like the Hot Spring models. We sell 5 model lines, and it's not all the exact same insulation. That being said, our staff member was shocked by how little insulation had been provided in this particular spa. I don't know which brand it was, but it's one more problem with buying from Costco (among many).

I'm not trying to beat up on anybody. However, I think a person needs to know all the details about a product before they purchase it sight unseen. The perimeter insulation idea, is about the same as claiming the sheet rock in your walls provides for insulation of your house. I'd much rather fill the cavity in the walls of my home (as would County Building Codes). So why would I do any different with a hot tub? Also keep in mind, insulation costs money. Anyone who's ever built a home knows the more insulation you put in, the more expensive it gets. This is how many hot tub manufacturers can save money. It's also why the builder who built my home didn't exceed Code Requirements for exterior wall insulation, because he was out for an inexpensive build with a good profit. It's why the windows in my home are generic, poorly insulated dual-pane glass and I can feel a dramatic air temperature different when I stand beside them.

So before you try attacking my integrity, accept the fact that not everyone considers an empty void to be proper insulation.

And by the way, one of the so called "superiority" points of the Hot Spring brand is how heavily insulated they are. It's one of the reasons Hot Spring is immensely popular across the entire state of Montana. It's cold here in the winter.

[hot_water]

To be very, very honest. One of our staff members here in Bozeman just had a neighbor who took delivery of a Costco hot tub recently. He couldn't help but visit the neighbor and help them out as the spa was delivered to their drive way. So he helped them get it to the backyard and started. He said the internal cavity of the spa was basically empty, and essentially just had a 1/2 to 3/4 inch foam insulation on the cabinet of the spa.

Sounds like Strong Evolution tub. It's a perimeter insulated tub. The cavity is supposed to be empty - same principle as an Arctic. You know that, Jeremiah. So how "very, very honest" is that? The Strong has 1-1/2" to 2" of insulation in the access panels, and two to four inches elsewhere. This info has also been posted here elsewhere.

Why do you believe it's necessary to send a pot-shot FUD bullet disguised as being helpful? Why not rely on selling your Hotspring products on their own merits and value proposition, and trust in thier superiority and your value-add as a dealer to win you the business?

LOL Wow, easy there. To be very honest, I don't see the type of "insulation" I described as insulation. In a cold climate like Montana, you don't skimp on insulation in your house, or anywhere else. So why do so in a hot tub that's meant to keep water at 102 degrees all the time? On warm nights our over night temperatures are in the teens, and can easily get -20F depending on weather conditions or location.

As a Hot Spring dealer, not all of my spas are insulated like the Hot Spring models. We sell 5 model lines, and it's not all the exact same insulation. That being said, our staff member was shocked by how little insulation had been provided in this particular spa. I don't know which brand it was, but it's one more problem with buying from Costco (among many).

I'm not trying to beat up on anybody. However, I think a person needs to know all the details about a product before they purchase it sight unseen. The perimeter insulation idea, is about the same as claiming the sheet rock in your walls provides for insulation of your house. I'd much rather fill the cavity in the walls of my home (as would County Building Codes). So why would I do any different with a hot tub? Also keep in mind, insulation costs money. Anyone who's ever built a home knows the more insulation you put in, the more expensive it gets. This is how many hot tub manufacturers can save money. It's also why the builder who built my home didn't exceed Code Requirements for exterior wall insulation, because he was out for an inexpensive build with a good profit. It's why the windows in my home are generic, poorly insulated dual-pane glass and I can feel a dramatic air temperature different when I stand beside them.

So before you try attacking my integrity, accept the fact that not everyone considers an empty void to be proper insulation.

And by the way, one of the so called "superiority" points of the Hot Spring brand is how heavily insulated they are. It's one of the reasons Hot Spring is immensely popular across the entire state of Montana. It's cold here in the winter.

Let's be clear. I'm not "trying" to attack your integrity. I AM attacking your use of this forum as a sales vehicle to shamelessly promote and sell your product, while you claim to be, "very, very honest".

You fully know that there is an ongoing debate on the merits of perimeter insulation v. full foam. You sell full foam, I wouldn't expect you to promote perimeter. But to characterize the perimeter design as "skimping"? Do you also characterize a sports car as "skimping" compared to a sedan because it doesn't have a back seat? Yes they're both vehicles, both carry people, but very different approaches, each with its pr and con points. Just as full foam and perimeter are different approaches. You are fully aware of this.

Yet you took a blatant potshot, and selected your words to create FUD and steer a consumer towards a different design that you sell. You have an vested interest. That is not "very, very honest". That is using this board as a sales platform. Perhaps you should "accept the fact that not everyone considers" using a purported informational forum as a sales tool to be appropriate or to be honest.

All your discussion of buildings, drywall, windows, and code requirements are absurd and irrelevant. You have no objective data about the Costco spa. There is no objective data. And you probably don't even have objective data about your own product.

Tom, the former Arctic employee that frequented this board, likened the design of the Strong Evolution spa to that of the the Arctic. Arctic, in particular, also has the "empty" cabinet you decry, but is generally thought highly-of in terms of insulation performance - and is also very popular in cold climates. I am not saying that the Strong spa from Costco performs as well as the Arctic. I do not know. NEITHER DO YOU.

But I do know that neither the Arctic nor the Strong is uninsulated. And I do know that throwing mudballs that clearly promote YOUR interest in an attempt to create FUD and get a customer into your shop is what I consider to be unethical. It is one thing to point out that Hotspring has some good products that the poster might like, quite another to promote FUD. Personally, if I was in the market for a Hotspring, I would think seriously about steering clear of any dealer that overtly employed such tactics. It is not, IMO, a very stand-up thing to do on an information forum. How would such a dealer treat me with money on the line? All things that I would consider. People come here for unbiased information, not sales pitches disguised as unbiased information.

By the way, don't forget to mention your fully foamed spa encapsulates the plumbing, making service of any plumbing leaks, however infrequent, much more difficult than in a perimeter spa. Presenting a true, unbiased picture ... well, that would be "very, very honest". But you're a salesman - you will never say anything that might be considered a negative about your product.

Fact is, full foam spas are good if you accept the service issues. Hotspring may well work better in Montana than a perimeter spa, or maybe not to any significant extent. You don't know and neither do I. The lack of objective information is unfortunate for the poster.

But, and I hope the poster asks himself why the Hotspring salesman is bringing this insulation issue up at all in a thread about PUMPS... you know, to be "very, very honest".

[Stuart A]

It would be interesting to hear any salesman admit that one of the reasons they use full foam is to support weak shells, which I would of thought is a cheaper manufacturing method that building a self supporting shell.

As long as the shell has a few inches of good quality insulation this should be enough, think of your hot water tank and how thick the insulation is there, and by adding perimeter insulation to the spa should also help.

All in all most probably both methods are ok just wish people would be honest about it.

Now 1 inch of cheap insulation on the perimeter only with no insulation on the shell then thats a different matter.

[Dr. Spa]

Is there a difference between putting fiberglass on the outside of the shell to support it, or putting insulation on the outside of the shell for support???

Either way the shell is supported.

Either done incorrectly will fail.

Either done correctly will work fine.

[Stuart A]

Either done incorrectly will fail.

Either done correctly will work fine.

Thought these comments would also apply to different insulation methods.

Just wondered is it cheaper to make a spa with foam supporting the shell or is it cheaper to make a spa with fibreglass supporting the shell?

[hot_water]

Is there a difference between putting fiberglass on the outside of the shell to support it, or putting insulation on the outside of the shell for support???

Either way the shell is supported.

Either done incorrectly will fail.

Either done correctly will work fine.

There is a difference. If the foam is being used as support, well, then the shell must be flexible. Under high local loads (say, a person's heel) a weak or flexible shell supported by foam will flex, crushing the foam locally. It won't come back the same as it was before, and therefore won't support the shell in this area as well. The fiberglass reinforcement works in a different way. It both stiffens and strengthens the structure. For a given thickness of acrylic, the fiberglass reinforced shell will flex less and will flex elastically - meaning it will return to the same condition it started out in - with no subsurface foam damage. Local damage is one of several reasons that honeycomb and other core materials are used in serious structural composite applications. An exception would be certain homebuilt aircraft that use foam. On those, the skins are designed to cope with anticipated local loading. You're not supposed to walk on the wings of your Vari-EZE.

Whether the use of foam results in structural problems in any particular brand or model of spa depends on specifics which we don't have knowledge of. If the shell is thick enough, it may well not matter. I do note that there are instances documented on this forum where foam tub shells, including Hotspring, have cracked. Is this related to the use of foam? I don't know and it's pointless to guess. On the other hand it's also true that quality issues associated with fiberglass reinforced self supporting designs are responsible for blisters in tubs of that construction. There is no perfect shell.

"Acrylobond" reinforcement is a relatively new material, usedon the Strong shells and others. It is polyester free, and in sprayed on. As far as I am concerned, the jury is out on this material. Hopefully it improves quality and consistency, is more environmentally friendly AND cost effective for the manufacturer. All that is good. But we shall have to wait and see how it does.

The real point as I see it is that the foam, extolled for its insulating qualities, also has a serious negative in the lack of serviceability associated with such designs. Foam resin material is expensive, but find it very doubtful that the total cost of a foamed tub is any higher than that of a hand-rolled (labor intensive) fiberglass reinforced shell. I believe that the foam is probably less expensive overall to manufacture. So the question is, and especially in light of the clear serviceability problem, "was the decision to foam based on superior thermal performance or was it based on cost?" And if the answer is "cost"... then is the thermal performance really any better? Again, there is no real objective data. All of this has been argued ad nauseum, to no resolution because no conclusive data exists. Each buyer has to make his/her own judgement. The consumer has to decide based on how important the merits of serviceability v. a possible but unsubstantiated insulation advantage v. a potential structural advantage of one over the other are to him/her v. his.her own notions of what seems more "right". Personally, I see nothing but "talk" and anecdotal evidence from either camp about thermal performance. I don't like foam as structure, but acknowledge that it might be fine. However, the serviceability problems of foam tubs seem IMO far too serious to ignore. It's like buying a car with the hood welded shut. I also believe that the amount of time the spa is used, as well as the quality of the cover, are both more important to a user's energy bill than the insulation type, assuming either insulation scheme is executed competently.

But we digress. This thread was about PUMPS.

[IDW]

Its all about the plumbing. If you take the 6bhp pump and discharge the water thru a 1 inch pipe you will get a considerly lower flow than if the water was pumped thru a 2 and a half inch line. If you really want to know the flow you need to know the head of the system and look at the pump cure. I only know of a few spas that are plumbed with 2 and a half inch plumbing. Pacific spas was one but they didnt make it thru the ressesion. Personally I think the XP 3 pump is the best and most efficent out there. If you look at the pump curve it wont even pump if the plumbing is poor(a high head)

[hot_water]

Its all about the plumbing. If you take the 6bhp pump and discharge the water thru a 1 inch pipe you will get a considerly lower flow than if the water was pumped thru a 2 and a half inch line. If you really want to know the flow you need to know the head of the system and look at the pump cure. I only know of a few spas that are plumbed with 2 and a half inch plumbing. Pacific spas was one but they didnt make it thru the ressesion. Personally I think the XP 3 pump is the best and most efficent out there. If you look at the pump curve it wont even pump if the plumbing is poor(a high head)

You're right on the money. One needs to look at the spa as a complete system, not just a pump. Matching the pump discharge curve to the spa impedance curve is how it's done. Where the two curves cross is the operating point. A lower powered pump/motor that may well have a more favorable operating point than a giant pump that's poorly matched or pumps into overly-restrictive (high head loss) plumbing. Of course, a giant pump that's also well-matched to a low-restriction plumbing system will provide the best performance.

Kind of frustrating for consumers that for all the money involved, some spa manufacturers don't seeem to do as good a job at this as they might.

I'm under the impression that H20, which was related to Pacific & Aber somehow (I've forgotten the deal exactly - started by ex-employees or something like that?) might also use the 2-1/2 plumbing. Do you know for sure? I seem to be under the impression that there are also a couple of options for the size of the tubing that feeds the individual jets as well - can you comment on if this is correct? This would matter, too, but it's a much smaller effect, not near as important as the discharge plumbing size.

Got a link for that XP 3 pump curve? I would like to take a look.

[IDW]

http://www.geckoalliance.com/aquaflo/produ...res.php?nom=xp3

H20 uses 2 and a half plumbing and the XP3 pump just like pacific did.

H20 is owned by the guys who sold Pacific to the company that bankrupted it. The spas are silmilar. They are they only tub that I know of that use big plumbing.

[hot_water]

http://www.geckoalliance.com/aquaflo/produ...res.php?nom=xp3

H20 uses 2 and a half plumbing and the XP3 pump just like pacific did.

H20 is owned by the guys who sold Pacific to the company that bankrupted it. The spas are silmilar. They are they only tub that I know of that use big plumbing.

Thanks!