PoolSpaGuy30 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I pitch the Aquafinesse product because I sell 800 odd kits a year and customers stay on it, and refer it business... that's about $120,000 a year through my till... so who is missing what??? The laugh is on you mate I dont do salt because i try and really really sell what is best for my customer and I just dont believe the salt systems work well on spas (and sitting around the water cooler at any of the big trade shows the manufacturers all admit the same)... I'm a simple man... And like many people out there I do not mind paying a premium for something that does the job right. actually mate we offer silk balance as an option and did over $145,000 last year with it, so i wonder is the laugh still on me?...and the fact your using "water cooler talk" as your main argument against salt systems shows everyone how serious your comments can be taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I pitch the Aquafinesse product because I sell 800 odd kits a year and customers stay on it, and refer it business... that's about $120,000 a year through my till... so who is missing what??? The laugh is on you mate Wow, sounds like Aquafinesse is a quite the ongoing cash cow for you so I don’t doubt your allegiance to it. If my math is right that would be $1200/person/year. In another of your threads you mentioned $50/month which would be $600/person/year. Either way that’s damn pricey and some would argue foolish money spent compared to using chlorine which works fine at less than 10% the price. Maybe this A.F. stuff works fine as you say, that’s not my point at all and it must to some degree if you continue to sell it, it’s just that exorbitant cost that gets me scratching my head. As far as the salt systems go, past versions have certainly been less than successful in spas so if the water cooler talk is about them I don't think you'll get much argument but we also know they work well for pools so it really shouldn't be a shock if someone gets it right for spas too. As far as the systems some spa manufacturers have come out with you certainly have to go by the “time will tell” theory to some degree (as with anything really) plus past versions weren't actually from spa manufacturers themselves who can fine tune them to their product. To pooh-pooh them based on past failures is kind of like saying you'll stick with your horse because those crazy gas powered horseless carriages will never work right and catch on whereas my horse (chlorine) and my super expensive bike (A.F.) are simpler and here to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark SC Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I contacted my spa manufacturer before ordering the after market SWCG, and they recommended it in writing (email) to me. Back on topic, does anyone else have operating tips/experiences they can share regarding the after market SWCGs? Most of what I see on the forum is for the ACE system. BTW, in the spa chemistry forum, we are discussing the revised chemical recommendations for Hot Springs, which presumably relates to ACE and would apply to the saltwater systems in general. The new thinking seems to be to keep alkalinity and CH much lower than what all the spa manufacturers have been saying forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolSpaGuy30 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I contacted my spa manufacturer before ordering the after market SWCG, and they recommended it in writing (email) to me. Back on topic, does anyone else have operating tips/experiences they can share regarding the after market SWCGs? Most of what I see on the forum is for the ACE system. BTW, in the spa chemistry forum, we are discussing the revised chemical recommendations for Hot Springs, which presumably relates to ACE and would apply to the saltwater systems in general. The new thinking seems to be to keep alkalinity and CH much lower than what all the spa manufacturers have been saying forever. absolutely...I run my calcium right around 60-80ppm and alk. around ~70ppm and pH usually comes in at 7.4 These numbers seem to work great for me, pH doesn't seem to drift at all and my chlorine always tests out at 2.5-4ppm....easy peasy and so far I love the system, but as stated above "time will tell" as far as longevity goes, we need a couple more years to truly get a good gauge on these systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 actually mate we offer silk balance as an option and did over $145,000 last year with it, so i wonder is the laugh still on me?...and the fact your using "water cooler talk" as your main argument against salt systems shows everyone how serious your comments can be taken That's just a bone head comment... the marketing and spin is for the customer, but chatting with the people that own and run the companies and make the decisions and certainly have the feedback is certainly a valid method of information gathering and analysis, and frankly the science behind the Mineral salt system is why i love it, my disdain for the salt systems is simply based on lack of success. And yes i base my argument in part on past experience and past performance of salt systems but again where is the fault in that??? until the new systems have a proven track record of a few years of in field success it is all just talk... Maybee they will start working well time will tell. As demonstrated in this post I could make money with either system... My biggest reason I like the Mineral salt system is it is a totally different approach to sanitation. Halogen type oxidizers like the product of the salt systems you talk about deal with cleaning water by treating the symptom. Within the pipes and surfaces you have colonized bacteria that coat themselves in protective enzymes. Halogen based oxidizers never eradicate these colonies they simply slow their proliferation and keep the water clean by killing any bacteria that leave the colony. its a reactive system... The reason your water goes off so quickly if the chlorine is stopped for whatever reason is that the bacteria is there waiting and in a very short period of time without the presence of sanitizer they proliferate and the water goes off. With the mineral salt system it is a combination of ten mineral salts that first strip the system clean and destroy the colonies of bacteria, the salts then coat the surfaces and are in effect an anti magnet to bacteria, virus, metals, and calcium... Now you have a truly clean system and with a chlorine level of around 1ppm the water really does stay spot on, and the pH and alkalinity get buffered and remain very stable, and you get no scale formation, which extends the life of the spa parts. Now in order for the water to go off you have this huge lag time because the bacteria needs to proliferate to a level then start to effect the water. I have left my spa over 4 weeks at 104 without the weekly treatments after using it with Aquafinesse for 3 months and adding nothing to it at all and still the water is perfect. Try it... You will like it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolSpaGuy30 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 actually mate we offer silk balance as an option and did over $145,000 last year with it, so i wonder is the laugh still on me?...and the fact your using "water cooler talk" as your main argument against salt systems shows everyone how serious your comments can be taken That's just a bone head comment... the marketing and spin is for the customer, but chatting with the people that own and run the companies and make the decisions and certainly have the feedback is certainly a valid method of information gathering and analysis, and frankly the science behind the Mineral salt system is why i love it, my disdain for the salt systems is simply based on lack of success. And yes i base my argument in part on past experience and past performance of salt systems but again where is the fault in that??? until the new systems have a proven track record of a few years of in field success it is all just talk... Maybee they will start working well time will tell. As demonstrated in this post I could make money with either system... My biggest reason I like the Mineral salt system is it is a totally different approach to sanitation. Halogen type oxidizers like the product of the salt systems you talk about deal with cleaning water by treating the symptom. Within the pipes and surfaces you have colonized bacteria that coat themselves in protective enzymes. Halogen based oxidizers never eradicate these colonies they simply slow their proliferation and keep the water clean by killing any bacteria that leave the colony. its a reactive system... The reason your water goes off so quickly if the chlorine is stopped for whatever reason is that the bacteria is there waiting and in a very short period of time without the presence of sanitizer they proliferate and the water goes off. With the mineral salt system it is a combination of ten mineral salts that first strip the system clean and destroy the colonies of bacteria, the salts then coat the surfaces and are in effect an anti magnet to bacteria, virus, metals, and calcium... Now you have a truly clean system and with a chlorine level of around 1ppm the water really does stay spot on, and the pH and alkalinity get buffered and remain very stable, and you get no scale formation, which extends the life of the spa parts. Now in order for the water to go off you have this huge lag time because the bacteria needs to proliferate to a level then start to effect the water. I have left my spa over 4 weeks at 104 without the weekly treatments after using it with Aquafinesse for 3 months and adding nothing to it at all and still the water is perfect. Try it... You will like it... I know what the product does, how it works, how they market it, and how big the margins are...over the years I've tried AF, SilkBalance, EZ Spa, and Leisure Time's version of a "non-chlorine/bromine" system, as well organic moss systems, eco-smarte systems, Silver Ion/Mps systems etc. etc. etc. so save the sales pitch for someone who doesn't know any better...you have your opinions and I have mine and that is all I have to say, good luck with AF and I hope it yields huge profits for you for many years to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 agree to disagree... I too have tried most of the products out there and AF is the only oneI have ever endorsed... But why allude to a high margin??? its like the same margin as most products and certainly not a high margin gouge... it costs around $100-$110 and sells for around $155-$165 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The non-EPA approved methods, which includes AquaFinesse if you don't maintain chlorine levels, are not disinfectants and are not as safe against bacterial outbreaks. They may inhibit biofilm formation generally, but do not stop uncontrolled bacterial growth. They are not EPA approved because they do not pass EPA DIS/TSS-12. A spa owner with username Loumart was using AquaFinesse (see this post) and reported getting hot tub lung diagnosed by his doctor. I communicated with him off-line and all I have to say is that though the risk of disease is low even without chlorine, you are definitely taking a greater risk by not using a fast-acting disinfectant. AquaFinesse does not produce enough chlorine from the tablets to oxidize bather waste on its own unless you are using supplemental oxidation such as an ozonator so the chlorine level can get to zero for extended periods of time if you are using the tub regularly. Generally speaking, people using AquaFinesse report better results if they also have an ozonator. We've also had reports of hot tub itch/rash incidents using other non-EPA approved methods such as copper ion systems. To be fair, there were also reports from chlorine and bromine users that let their disinfectant levels get to zero for extended periods of time (usually because they weren't using enough oxidizer) and for some Dichlor-only users who let the CYA levels build up too high (usually after 2-3 months). We haven't had any reports of disinfection trouble with the Dichlor-then-bleach method or with bromine users properly maintaining disinfectant levels, but the sample size is small so it's too early to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Aquafinesse has always been marketed as a system that works in conjunction with Chlorine. You basically said Aquafinesse is not EPA approved and can be a risk IF YOU DON'T USE IT with chlorine??? Take your fist paragraph and replace the word Aquafinesse with absolutely any other sanitation method including good old chlorine, salt systems, or anything else and the statement remains true... Question... Is the an exposed bacteria that can survive and proliferate in 1ppm chlorine solution (the level that the Aquafinesse system keeps my spa at)? Oh and in your response to the post from the lung guy you referred to Aquafinesse as an enzyme, its actually a mineral salt solution... Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark SC Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 But in an earlier post you dissed SWCGs by saying that they require supplemental dichlor to create a CYA bank if one wishes to stabalize the chlorine.... The fact is that a SWCG on its own is an effective sanitizer while my understanding is that Aqufinesse on its own is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 My biggest reason I like the Mineral salt system is it is a totally different approach to sanitation. Halogen type oxidizers like the product of the salt systems you talk about deal with cleaning water by treating the symptom. Within the pipes and surfaces you have colonized bacteria that coat themselves in protective enzymes. Halogen based oxidizers never eradicate these colonies they simply slow their proliferation and keep the water clean by killing any bacteria that leave the colony. its a reactive system... The reason your water goes off so quickly if the chlorine is stopped for whatever reason is that the bacteria is there waiting and in a very short period of time without the presence of sanitizer they proliferate and the water goes off. With the mineral salt system it is a combination of ten mineral salts that first strip the system clean and destroy the colonies of bacteria, the salts then coat the surfaces and are in effect an anti magnet to bacteria, virus, metals, and calcium... Now you have a truly clean system and with a chlorine level of around 1ppm the water really does stay spot on, and the pH and alkalinity get buffered and remain very stable, and you get no scale formation, which extends the life of the spa parts. Now in order for the water to go off you have this huge lag time because the bacteria needs to proliferate to a level then start to effect the water. I have left my spa over 4 weeks at 104 without the weekly treatments after using it with Aquafinesse for 3 months and adding nothing to it at all and still the water is perfect. Try it... You will like it... Aquafinesse has always been marketed as a system that works in conjunction with Chlorine. You basically said Aquafinesse is not EPA approved and can be a risk IF YOU DON'T USE IT with chlorine??? Take your fist paragraph and replace the word Aquafinesse with absolutely any other sanitation method including good old chlorine, salt systems, or anything else and the statement remains true... Question... Is the an exposed bacteria that can survive and proliferate in 1ppm chlorine solution (the level that the Aquafinesse system keeps my spa at)? Oh and in your response to the post from the lung guy you referred to Aquafinesse as an enzyme, its actually a mineral salt solution... Thanks First you say aquafinesse works differently than halogen basd sanitizers then you say it has to be used with chlorine. This is a bit deceptive! You refer to aquafinesse as a mineral salt solution. So does every purveyor of copper and silver, including Zodiac and King Technologies, Ecosmarte, Pristine Blue, etc. and they also make the claim of reduced chlorine levels needed. FWIW, mineral salts are salts of METALS or metalloids, even calcium is a metal which many people do not realize. In fact, out of the 118 known elements the ONLY 18 elements that are non metals on the periodic table are: Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorous, Sulfur, Selenium, the Halogens (Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, Astatine) , and the Noble Gases (Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, Radon) Every of the other 100 elements is a metal or metalloid! So it would be safe to say that Aquafinesse is adding metals to the water and metals MUST be used with a residual halogen based sanitizer (as does acquafinesse) and, IMHO, metals have no place in spa or pool sanitation (with the possible exception of silver used in conjunction with MPS to catalyze it and allow it to perform as a santizer at elevated temperatures in spas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 My biggest reason I like the Mineral salt system is it is a totally different approach to sanitation. Halogen type oxidizers like the product of the salt systems you talk about deal with cleaning water by treating the symptom. Within the pipes and surfaces you have colonized bacteria that coat themselves in protective enzymes. Halogen based oxidizers never eradicate these colonies they simply slow their proliferation and keep the water clean by killing any bacteria that leave the colony. its a reactive system... The reason your water goes off so quickly if the chlorine is stopped for whatever reason is that the bacteria is there waiting and in a very short period of time without the presence of sanitizer they proliferate and the water goes off. With the mineral salt system it is a combination of ten mineral salts that first strip the system clean and destroy the colonies of bacteria, the salts then coat the surfaces and are in effect an anti magnet to bacteria, virus, metals, and calcium... Now you have a truly clean system and with a chlorine level of around 1ppm the water really does stay spot on, and the pH and alkalinity get buffered and remain very stable, and you get no scale formation, which extends the life of the spa parts. Now in order for the water to go off you have this huge lag time because the bacteria needs to proliferate to a level then start to effect the water. I have left my spa over 4 weeks at 104 without the weekly treatments after using it with Aquafinesse for 3 months and adding nothing to it at all and still the water is perfect. Try it... You will like it... Aquafinesse has always been marketed as a system that works in conjunction with Chlorine. You basically said Aquafinesse is not EPA approved and can be a risk IF YOU DON'T USE IT with chlorine??? Take your fist paragraph and replace the word Aquafinesse with absolutely any other sanitation method including good old chlorine, salt systems, or anything else and the statement remains true... Question... Is the an exposed bacteria that can survive and proliferate in 1ppm chlorine solution (the level that the Aquafinesse system keeps my spa at)? Oh and in your response to the post from the lung guy you referred to Aquafinesse as an enzyme, its actually a mineral salt solution... Thanks First you say aquafinesse works differently than halogen basd sanitizers then you say it has to be used with chlorine. This is a bit deceptive! You refer to aquafinesse as a mineral salt solution. So does every purveyor of copper and silver, including Zodiac and King Technologies, Ecosmarte, Pristine Blue, etc. and they also make the claim of reduced chlorine levels needed. FWIW, mineral salts are salts of METALS or metalloids, even calcium is a metal which many people do not realize. In fact, out of the 118 known elements the ONLY 18 elements that are non metals on the periodic table are: Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorous, Sulfur, Selenium, the Halogens (Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, Astatine) , and the Noble Gases (Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, Radon) Every of the other 100 elements is a metal or metalloid! So it would be safe to say that Aquafinesse is adding metals to the water and metals MUST be used with a residual halogen based sanitizer (as does acquafinesse) and, IMHO, metals have no place in spa or pool sanitation (with the possible exception of silver used in conjunction with MPS to catalyze it and allow it to perform as a santizer at elevated temperatures in spas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Aquafinesse has always been marketed as a system that works in conjunction with Chlorine. You basically said Aquafinesse is not EPA approved and can be a risk IF YOU DON'T USE IT with chlorine??? Take your fist paragraph and replace the word Aquafinesse with absolutely any other sanitation method including good old chlorine, salt systems, or anything else and the statement remains true... Question... Is the an exposed bacteria that can survive and proliferate in 1ppm chlorine solution (the level that the Aquafinesse system keeps my spa at)? Oh and in your response to the post from the lung guy you referred to Aquafinesse as an enzyme, its actually a mineral salt solution... Thanks But if you're having to use chlorine with it why bother. Chlorine on its own works fine, why add $50-100month of AF to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 But if you're having to use chlorine with it why bother. Chroine on its own works fine, why add $50-100month of AF to it? Exactly! (actually, there is a reason, it's to dupe the customer and increase the dealers bottom line--and people wonder why this industry has a bad reputation?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 No the reason you use it with your chlorine is you are able to really effectively keep your water clean with a very low chlorine level(around 1ppm) It is very nice on your skin: Fact::: In Holland they use Aquafinesse in the hospital to treat eczema on new born babies... crazy as it sounds it is true. It's main advantage is it coats the surfaces so bacteria colonization does not occur. Guys try it FFS... we can argue the pros and cons but the fact is in 20 years of doing this I have never seen a product that works better... Simple as that. Its funny, a few years ago I would have been arguing on your side, I hate all the gimmicky stuff that comes out to offer miracle water treatments but man this stuff works a charm... I do nothing but add it once a week, keep the little dispenser full of chlorine ( personally i use about 1 little puck a week but stick to the recommendations) and check the ph alka, once every month or two and my water stays immaculate for 6-8 months at a go and our bather load is 5-8 bathers a week and that includes me getting in after hockey 5 days a week un-showered. The reason people pay $50 per month for this stuff is it works... old school hot tub customers who go on it never go off it. The metal argument i cant really follow, we all are aware that lots of things are metals but what is your point??? to convoluted... but the essence is the metals etc are bad because they build up in the system, the beauty of this stuff is it prevents them from building up. Calcium has a insanely low pH and it is what destroys your jets, heater and pump seals preventing calcium and iron build up alone is worth a fortune down the road in service issue. I wish I knew more but I can only say that IT WORKS... The only issues I have ever had with it are foam, and cloud related and we have found that keeping the hardness low at around 150 and the alka high at around 150 and the pH low at around 7 is just like magic... I swear you need to suspend disbelief and try this stuff, it is worth every penny... it will not make you rich, you will make the same as you do on any other system but your customer satisfaction and referral rate is out of this world. The arguments are all good but the proof is in the pudding... I have no vested interest, no shares, or distribution or anything else except my own local market retailing this stuff and certainly dont expect to increase my sales here, i have no reason to promote this product except I have found it to be the best product out there bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The metal argument i cant really follow, we all are aware that lots of things are metals but what is your point??? to convoluted... but the essence is the metals etc are bad because they build up in the system, the beauty of this stuff is it prevents them from building up. Let me make it simple then. if it is a combination of mineral SALTS as you say then it contains metals (this is basic chemistry and there is no way around it) and adds them to the water! Most metal systems recommend a 1 ppm (or less) FC residual. Nothing new here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 And why does this prove that it does not work ??? My problem is not understanding your pitch I just cant see how it proves anything... And are not salts technically minerals... They come from metals but aren't really metals themselves are they??? I am only guessing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 See the AquaFinesse website for spas. There isn't anything about using chlorine as a part of their system on this main page. They say that their system cleans water "without the need of time consuming, multiple daily measurements and high doses of harsh chemicals." On the Benefits page it says "Reduces the need for chemicals by up to 70%" and "the need for chemicals such as chlorine or bromine can be significantly reduced". On the FAQ & watercare tips page it says "AquaFinesse is normally supplied with a chlorine tablet and a slow release dispenser, however this can be substituted for chlorine granules or bromine dependant on personal preference and the spa manufactures recommendations". However, this is precisely the problem I am pointing out. In a spa without an ozonator or other supplemental oxidation, the Aquafinesse system simply uses WAY too little chlorine to oxidize bather waste. Yes, if people were diligently checking their FC levels every day and adding more chlorine as needed there would be no problem, but that is NOT the way the system is touted (as you can see from the statements on their main page I quoted above). Now to be fair, chlorine systems have the same problem if you do not use sufficient levels of chlorine and many of the hot tub itch/rash incidents reported on this forum were due to zero or very low chlorine levels, mostly because people were simply not using enough oxidizer. If there is no ozonator or supplemental oxidation, then every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) tub requires around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) in order to oxidize bather waste (this is roughly 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons). For Trichlor, that's about 1/3rd ounce weight for every person-hour. Aquafinesse does not change the chemistry of oxidation as they are just minerals (if you read the "[EDIT]" section and linked post after I incorrectly assumed they were enzymes, you will see I corrected that after talking to Steve Sweeney). Minerals do not aid in the oxidation of bather waste. They only prevent additional chlorine demand that would occur if biofilms were to form, but biofilms will not form in large quantities if the chlorine level is properly maintained and sufficient amounts used after a soak to oxidize bather waste. The planktonic bacteria are killed before they can form biofilms. However, the AquaFinesse system does not require users to use sufficient amounts of chlorine so instead the FC level after a soak can get to zero at which point bacteria can grow. That's how Loumart got his hot tub lung and others got hot tub itch/rash. The bather load simply overwhelmed the slow-release chlorine which got further and further behind. When the water got cloudy, he shocked with Dichlor to get it clear, but in the meantime during the week, days would go by with insufficient chlorine levels. This paper showed a 5.5-log (99.9997%) reduction in biofilm formation when chlorine levels were maintained compared to not having chlorine. Though the paper showed that a weekly shock reduced biofilm formation even further, the amount of biofilm at the sustained chlorine level was equivalent to 3.7 CFU/cm^2 of surface area which is pretty darn low given the bather load used in the experiment (a CFU is a colony forming unit which is one bacteria or a small number of chained or clustered bacteria -- see this link). In practice, users on this forum do not find their spas getting slimy or having significantly increased chlorine demand, though there is a slow rise over months from roughly 25% daily no-bather-load demand to 50%, but that increase goes away completely after a water change which means it's not biofilm (which would remain after a water change) but is instead an accumulation of slow-to-oxidize organics. Since the solution to the problems of insufficient oxidizer relative to bather load is to simply use the proper amount of oxidizer, one then needs to ask what benefit AquaFinesse has over a system such as Dichlor-then-bleach or the use of bromine tabs (with supplemental oxidizer if bather load is uneven through the week). If sufficient oxidizer is used to handle bather waste and the FC is always at least 1-2 ppm (with a reasonable CYA level < 50 ppm), then one does not get any increase in chlorine demand from biofilms since they aren't formed. In other words, the sanitizer/oxidizer alone is sufficient to prevent biofilms, so what's the point of using AquaFinesse? As for having low chlorine levels "nice on your skin", that is precisely what most people do with the Dichlor-then-bleach (and even Dichlor-only) method since they usually add chlorine AFTER their soak in sufficient quantity that they end up with 1-2 ppm FC just before their next soak. Though technically with a moderately long soak all the chlorine would get used up, this only happens for a short time, not more than an hour, after which the larger dose of chlorine after the soak kills off anything that was shed from bather load and, just as importantly, is in a sufficient dosage to oxidize bather waste over the next hours while not letting the FC get to zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolSpaGuy30 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 No the reason you use it with your chlorine is you are able to really effectively keep your water clean with a very low chlorine level(around 1ppm) I can effectively keep my water clean and keep my chlorine level around 1ppm with chlorine without spending an extra $50 a month It is very nice on your skin: Fact::: In Holland they use Aquafinesse in the hospital to treat eczema on new born babies... crazy as it sounds it is true. Why do I care about babies in Holland? It's main advantage is it coats the surfaces so bacteria colonization does not occur. I can buy 1 of 30 different products availble to "flush" my spa twice a year Guys try it FFS... we can argue the pros and cons but the fact is in 20 years of doing this I have never seen a product that works better... Simple as that. Its funny, a few years ago I would have been arguing on your side, I hate all the gimmicky stuff that comes out to offer miracle water treatments but man this stuff works a charm... I do nothing but add it once a week, keep the little dispenser full of chlorine ( personally i use about 1 little puck a week but stick to the recommendations) and check the ph alka, once every month or two and my water stays immaculate for 6-8 months at a go and our bather load is 5-8 bathers a week and that includes me getting in after hockey 5 days a week un-showered. guess what i do nothing besides test my water once a week with my Taylor K-2006 test kit and occasionally add a couple tbsp. of dry acid to bring pH down a smidge, my maintanence is literally 10-15min per week and that includes rinsing off my filters. The reason people pay $50 per month for this stuff is it works... old school hot tub customers who go on it never go off it. no the reason people buy it is because generally many many people are mis-informed/mis-educated on chemicals, and an "all in one" product (which we've already proven its not) sounds so good to people that have trouble managing there hottub The metal argument i cant really follow, we all are aware that lots of things are metals but what is your point??? to convoluted... but the essence is the metals etc are bad because they build up in the system, the beauty of this stuff is it prevents them from building up. Calcium has a insanely low pH and it is what destroys your jets, heater and pump seals preventing calcium and iron build up alone is worth a fortune down the road in service issue. I wish I knew more but I can only say that IT WORKS... The only issues I have ever had with it are foam, and cloud related and we have found that keeping the hardness low at around 150 and the alka high at around 150 and the pH low at around 7 is just like magic... I swear you need to suspend disbelief and try this stuff, it is worth every penny... it will not make you rich, you will make the same as you do on any other system but your customer satisfaction and referral rate is out of this world. The arguments are all good but the proof is in the pudding... I have no vested interest, no shares, or distribution or anything else except my own local market retailing this stuff and certainly dont expect to increase my sales here, i have no reason to promote this product except I have found it to be the best product out there bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 And why does this prove that it does not work ??? My problem is not understanding your pitch I just cant see how it proves anything... And are not salts technically minerals... They come from metals but aren't really metals themselves are they??? I am only guessing... salt become ions when dissolved in water. the postive ions are metals if they are elemental. can't make it more simple than that. it's basic chemistry. there are other postive ions that are not metals (but act like them) like ammonium ion and hydronium ion Minerals are metallic salts, no different than the silver nitrate and copper sulfate used in many pool and spa products and once dissolved, no different from the ions produced from copper and silver rods in electronic ionizer systems. There are many metallic salts (minerals if you prefer but we are talking about the same thing) but it is the heavy metal salts that are used in water sanitation (and realize that the heavy metal salts are toxic.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The metal argument i cant really follow, we all are aware that lots of things are metals but what is your point??? to convoluted... but the essence is the metals etc are bad because they build up in the system, the beauty of this stuff is it prevents them from building up. Let me make it simple then. if it is a combination of mineral SALTS as you say then it contains metals (this is basic chemistry and there is no way around it) and adds them to the water! Most metal systems recommend a 1 ppm (or less) FC residual. Nothing new here. So it this saying at best its like Nature2 but at 2x or 3x the price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 So it this saying at best its like Nature2 but at 2x or 3x the price? The AquaFinesse claims are that the particular mineral salts used break up and prevent biofilm formation. That isn't something that copper ions alone can do nor is it anything that Nature2 claims. I'll grant that AquaFinesse may have something that prevents biofilms, but that this isn't necessary if one properly maintains sanitizer levels and that means using sufficient oxidizer amounts to handle bather load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spa God Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Wow Too much to read... You win. you are wrong... but you win. Year one selling this product and my 200 customers on this product will stay on it and next year it will be 300... Maybe you are all right and it's just magic!!! It cracks me up... I am just sharing my experience with you for no gain, and you are shooting in the dark because you have never even tried it... You cant possibly evaluate this without field testing it because you nor I know what combination of which type of salts are in it... yer all guessing. Good science guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottubdan Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Well, this thread got way off topic. Questions for the nay sayers: Is biofilm in pipes an issue in our industry? Is water mold build up in pipes an issue? Products such as Silk Balance and Aqua Finesse are preventing the buid up of biofilm. They also give the water a silky feel. They are not sanitizers. Perhaps AF misleads on their web site. We sell Silk Balance. Most of our customers use ozone with it. We also tell them to shock weekly with Enhanced Shock, which contains chlorine. They also use either AG+ w/MPS or chlorine with each use. It sounds like most of the arguements here are about marketing and customer education, rather than about water care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 So it this saying at best its like Nature2 but at 2x or 3x the price? The AquaFinesse claims are that the particular mineral salts used break up and prevent biofilm formation. That isn't something that copper ions alone can do nor is it anything that Nature2 claims. I'll grant that AquaFinesse may have something that prevents biofilms, but that this isn't necessary if one properly maintains sanitizer levels and that means using sufficient oxidizer amounts to handle bather load. IF I am not mistaken borax can break up biofilms and give the water a silky feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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