TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Everyone, We love our Arctic Spa (salt system) but that love affair is breaking my heart ;o( I can barely go in now. Whenever I do, I get the wild, itchy rash that is bordering on unbearable. The system is a salt generator. I have pretty much ruled out foliculitis (dumped the water, scrubbed and sanitized the tub). When we refilled the tub, within days the rash was back. My wife is unaffected. Now, sadly, I am avoiding it. Has anyone else had this issue? We have considered switching from salt (chlorine) to a bromine brine. Is that worth trying the bromine or I am pretty much doomed? I have to add that my average stay in the tub is pretty long (I suppose), usually 45 minutes plus. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks (discouraged)...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Did you Decontaminate your tub? See my link below. If you didn't bring the Free Chlorine to a high enough level (50-100ppm), you could still have something in your tub causing problems. If you are truly sensitive to Chlorine (rare), you'll probably have a problem with Bromine also. You could then try Nature 2 (Silver Ion and MPS), which is a no to low chlorine method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Nitro, At last fill, we added 500gr of Easy Shock and ran that for 30 minutes. According to our dealer, that would return the tub to pristine. My doc gave me some meds for the rash, she thought it was foliclitus, but the meds did nothing to stop the rash. The only thing that works is staying out of the tub. What is MPS shock, I see lots of fingers pointing to that being a rash culprit. Thanks...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 See this link for a comparison of chemical sensitivity vs. bacterial infection. Since your reaction wasn't within 24 hours of exposure, it could be foliculitis. What is Easy Shock? Is it this? If so, then that is Dichlor and 500 grams (17.6 ounces weight) in 350 gallons (1325 liters) would be 209 ppm which is definitely an extremely high shock level. MPS shock is aka non-chlorine shock. I wonder if the Easy Shock wasn't what I showed above, but was MPS instead. Do you have the bottle and can you read the ingredients? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Nitro, At last fill, we added 500gr of Easy Shock and ran that for 30 minutes. According to our dealer, that would return the tub to pristine. My doc gave me some meds for the rash, she thought it was foliclitus, but the meds did nothing to stop the rash. The only thing that works is staying out of the tub. What is MPS shock, I see lots of fingers pointing to that being a rash culprit. Thanks...Tom I don't know what's in Easy Shock. Not even sure it contains Chlorine. My advice is to follow the Decontamination procedure in my link below. Then try using Chlorine again (see the link below for the proper way to do it). If you still get a rash, switch to Nature 2 and see if that helps. MPS can cause skin sensitivity. If that's your problem, you should not use MPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Nitro, At last fill, we added 500gr of Easy Shock and ran that for 30 minutes. According to our dealer, that would return the tub to pristine. My doc gave me some meds for the rash, she thought it was foliclitus, but the meds did nothing to stop the rash. The only thing that works is staying out of the tub. What is MPS shock, I see lots of fingers pointing to that being a rash culprit. Thanks...Tom If you are using Bioguard Easy Shock & Swim, it appears to be just dichlor. 500G is like 17 ounces.....which if it is dichlor....would kill the pope....or roughly translated about 200ppm FC in a 400 gallon tub. Anyways....I have no idea what but I would try a different sanitizer and see if that changes anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 MPS shock is aka non-chlorine shock. I wonder if the Easy Shock wasn't what I showed above, but was MPS instead. Do you have the bottle and can you read the ingredients? That's what I'm thinking, though I could be wrong. Looking forward to seeing those ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 How long after going in does the rash occur? Did the doc actually run a culture? Or just guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 What is the actual chemical ingredient in "Easy Shock"? If it is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, then your cyanuric acid level will be over 160 ppm (for a 400 gallon tub), and the free chlorine would have been raised to over 175 ppm. 500 grams is 1.1 pounds (17.637 ounces). That is way too much to add. You need to drain and start over. See the links in Nitro's signature for "Nitro's Approach to Water Maintenance" for the correct procedure to achieve good water chemistry. What test kit do you have? You need to have a kit equal to the Taylor K-2006 to properly test your chemicals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Not gonna lie...this is kind of funny....we all answered in about a 5 minute span with just about the same answer....great minds must think alike! but fess up....who did the grams to ounces conversion in their heads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Bioguard Easy shock and swim is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione Aqua Easy Shock is lithium hypochlorite. See Nitro's guide to decontamination. You should have used bleach, and you should have drained the tub after decontamination. Did you get in the tub while the chlorine was still high? Can you post all of your chemical readings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Guys, Wow, thanks ever so much for jumping to our aid. Before I get to the ingredients, let me clarify what I did. Since the doc thought I had Foliculitis, I was told to to pour 500gr of Easy Shock into the tub and ran it for 30 mins. The ingredients in Easy Shock are ; Lithium Hypochlorite 29%, available Chlorine content 35%. I have no idea what that is but it does smell like chlorine. The Arctic Spa dealer said that 500grams would kill all bacteria so we did, then dumped and refilled the tub. On a weekly maintenance, we add one cap (I'm guessing 50gr) of something called Brite Plus. It's contents are hard to determine. It does clearly state though that is does not contain chlorine or bromine. It does contain Potassium Monopersulphate. It claims to destroy organic waste. Since my rash is EXACTLY in the same patches as my last out break (end of last tubbing season), I really doubt that it is Foliculitis - just seems to defy logic. Does this help? Thanks Again...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I recommend that you drain the tub, replace the filters, refill and follow Nitro's decontamination procedure. Then, on refill, follow Nitro's Approach to Water Maintenance, and avoid using Monopersulfate. Do not use the salt system for a few weeks to see if that makes a difference. You need to have a good test kit, not test strips, and do not rely on the spa store to test your water. I recommend the Taylor K-2006. It is very important that you can test for "free chlorine" and "combined chlorine". Can you post all of your chemical readings including Free chlorine Combined chlorine pH Alkalinity Calcium hardness Cyanuric acid Salt TDS How long have you had this tub? Have you previously been able to use the tub without getting a rash? What does the water smell like? It should have almost no smell at all. Are you using any type of fragrance in the tub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcw53 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Since the rash appeared a couple of days after exposure, a bacterial infection would be indicated. But decontaminating with 500 g of 29% lithium hypochlorite should have killed anything that was living in your spa. If it is a chemical sensitivity, I'd suspect it is to one of the components of the monopersulfate compound. You wouldn't happen to be taking cholesterol meds? Two posters in this thread stated that their itchy rash went away after stopping or switching to different cholesterol meds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Since the rash appeared a couple of days after exposure, This is not what was actually said. "When we refilled the tub, within days the rash was back." So, again, how long AFTER exposure does the rash appear? The general rule is if it's less than 24 hours you have an allergy or sensitivity to some chemical(s), longer than 24 hours it's an infection. KEEP IN MIND, when the spa has just been filled there may not be enough chemicals in the water to activate any allergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi All, Good points. The reaction occurs within hours of exposure. That combined with the fact that the rash is reoccuring in the same places on my body, plus the meds my doc gave me last tub season had no effect on the rash really does lead me to believe it is a chemical allergy. If the problem is with the MPS shock then I will have to find something to replace it with. What other types of non MPS shocks are out there? Thanks...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Sounds like an allergy/sensitivity. MPS is MPS. It's the only type of non-chlorine shock. DuPont Monopersulfate Compound, Potassium Peroxymonosulfate Without being properly diagnosed, by a dermatologist, preferably board certified, all your going to be doing is trail and error experimenting...which could actually make things worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hi Doc Spa, I am on a short list for a dematologist appointment. Hopefuly they will be able to tell me what it is. In the meantime I plan to cease the MPS use. Suppose I will use a chlorine shock instead. If I have no relief from that then I am tempted to switch from salt to a bromine brine and see if that works. I just called a local spa dealer and he said that allergies to MPS is so rare that he has never heard of anyone ever having an issue. Am I grasping at straws? Thanks...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Actually, it's been my experience that MORE people are allergic/sensitive to MPS than anything else. There's always the laymans test. Mix up some MPS in water, soak a bandaid in it, and apply the bandaid to the area where the rash occurs. See what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey Doc, I like the way you think ;o) The bandaid test is worth a go...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Doc, If I stop using the MPS how long will it take to disapate from the tub? I guess I am wondering if a dump of the water is in order. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Doc, If I stop using the MPS how long will it take to disapate from the tub? I guess I am wondering if a dump of the water is in order. Tom MPS will get used up pretty quick (hours to days) depending on what's in the tub and how much you added. I probably sound like a broken record, but if you follow my procedure you will need very little chemicals. All you need to add to the tub on a regular basis is Chlorine. MPS is not needed. If you have sensitivity to something, the less you put into the tub the better. Also, I wouldn't bother with Bromine, because if you have sensitivity to Chlorine you'll probably have problems with using Bromine. My advice is the same as Quant's, Drain, Decon (Can't hurt, just to be safe) and try my procedure using Chlorine (without MPS). If you're still senisitive, you may need to switch to Baquacil (another type of sanitizer). I'm betting you won't be though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I believe it dissipates rather fast...however, some residual something is going to be left in the water. Could be the residual stuff causing the problem. Doc, If I stop using the MPS how long will it take to disapate from the tub? I guess I am wondering if a dump of the water is in order. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 The ingredient in MPS that is the most irritating is not the primary ingredient of potassium monopersulfate (aka potassium peroxymonosulfate), but rather the contaminant of potassium peroxydisulfate (aka dipotassium persulfate). This contaminant breaks down very quickly when silver ion is present which is probably why MPS is more tolerated in spas using Nature2. MPS itself may also irritate some people, but probably fewer than the peroxydisulfate/persulfate. MPS can persist for a day or two (possibly more if the temp isn't high) if there isn't much to oxidize in the water (i.e. if the spa isn't being used much). Regardless of which is the culprit, stopping the use of MPS would seem to be the thing to do here. You should be able to use your MPS test strips to see if MPS is still in the water. Or if you have a good chlorine test kit then MPS should show up as Combined Chlorine (CC). Worst case, you could add a reducing agent (such as thiosulfate or hydrogen peroxide) to remove all oxidizers from the tub, but that seems a little extreme and you'd need to measure the oxidizer level anyway to know how much reducing agent to add. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrustar Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 This thread is amazing. And I don't even have a dog in this hunt. Just good info to keep tucked away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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