Mystery Leak

[eric99gt]

WARNING WARNING VERY LONG. I apologize in advance and many thanks to any that can help.

A little background:

Recently purchased a house with a pool (yippy) and now found that the pool has a leak ( ). I'm having a very difficult time determining the source of this leak. This all started when I noticed a wet spot in our lawn. Being that it was a bit away from the pool and it looked like it was a low spot I assumed poor drainage. I got to work building a small drain pit. While doing this I noticed my hole I was digging would just continually fill back up. By this time I started to assume there had to be a source to this water. I started digging with my hand in the hole I had dug and found a channel through the dirt that lead me to the edge of the pool decking. Dug another hole and drained this hole of water. Each time I drain the hole I can watch the water flow in and fill it back up. Now I'm stuck as to what I can do so I call in a "professional" to do some leak detection. He comes on out does his work and finds a few areas of concern. Patches those up and is on his way. I'm happy thinking we are done. I was wrong. I drain the hole for the next few hours and yet is still fills back up. Leak is still there. Call him to come back out but in the meantime mess around with it myself. I first noticed that the leak was near our spa so I played around with the depth of the water in the spa. I adjusted the depth of the water in the spa to various points that covered the jets, then below the lights, and finally to the bottom. Each time I would lower the water level a bit more the level of water in the hole that I had dug would decrease. But even with the spa completely drained (except for the drain) the hole would still receive water. The professional comes back out a week or so later and starts messing around with the main drain. Says he found something else does a bit more patching and I'm hoping this was finally it. Wrong again. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is a problem not with the pool/spa but maybe just a high water table. I did notice on the bottom of the spa that there's a small 2 inch diameter metal cover with a small hole in the middle of it. I'm thinking this could possibly be a pressure relief device that I've read about on here. If that's the case that would confirm a high water table and that I'm just wasting my money trying to find a leak in the pool/spa. Is there any other way to positively identify if the source of the water in my hole is actually coming from the pool before I shell out even more money? I work in the Oil and Gas industry and I know that we can perform analysis of a water sample to determine the source. I was thinking I could get a water test kit and if the water in the hole I dug has a high salt content (salt water pool) then it would confirm that it is indeed the pool that is leaking (but I'm also thinking that any salt would be taken up by the dirt as it travels from the pool to the hole). Any ideas folks?

[adwh.com]

WARNING WARNING VERY LONG. I apologize in advance and many thanks to any that can help.

A little background:

Recently purchased a house with a pool (yippy) and now found that the pool has a leak ( ). I'm having a very difficult time determining the source of this leak. This all started when I noticed a wet spot in our lawn. Being that it was a bit away from the pool and it looked like it was a low spot I assumed poor drainage. I got to work building a small drain pit. While doing this I noticed my hole I was digging would just continually fill back up. By this time I started to assume there had to be a source to this water. I started digging with my hand in the hole I had dug and found a channel through the dirt that lead me to the edge of the pool decking. Dug another hole and drained this hole of water. Each time I drain the hole I can watch the water flow in and fill it back up. Now I'm stuck as to what I can do so I call in a "professional" to do some leak detection. He comes on out does his work and finds a few areas of concern. Patches those up and is on his way. I'm happy thinking we are done. I was wrong. I drain the hole for the next few hours and yet is still fills back up. Leak is still there. Call him to come back out but in the meantime mess around with it myself. I first noticed that the leak was near our spa so I played around with the depth of the water in the spa. I adjusted the depth of the water in the spa to various points that covered the jets, then below the lights, and finally to the bottom. Each time I would lower the water level a bit more the level of water in the hole that I had dug would decrease. But even with the spa completely drained (except for the drain) the hole would still receive water. The professional comes back out a week or so later and starts messing around with the main drain. Says he found something else does a bit more patching and I'm hoping this was finally it. Wrong again. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is a problem not with the pool/spa but maybe just a high water table. I did notice on the bottom of the spa that there's a small 2 inch diameter metal cover with a small hole in the middle of it. I'm thinking this could possibly be a pressure relief device that I've read about on here. If that's the case that would confirm a high water table and that I'm just wasting my money trying to find a leak in the pool/spa. Is there any other way to positively identify if the source of the water in my hole is actually coming from the pool before I shell out even more money? I work in the Oil and Gas industry and I know that we can perform analysis of a water sample to determine the source. I was thinking I could get a water test kit and if the water in the hole I dug has a high salt content (salt water pool) then it would confirm that it is indeed the pool that is leaking (but I'm also thinking that any salt would be taken up by the dirt as it travels from the pool to the hole). Any ideas folks?

Contact one of the larger pool service company's in your area. They have a relatively new breed of pressure testing equipment attached to a video monitor. Not only can they tell you that there is a leak, but they can actually show you exactly which line is leaking and the exact location of the leak.

If the first spot you noticed is in a direct line from the pool to the pump, usually a return line, that's probably the problem. However, the days of guessing are over thanks to this new equipment.

[eric99gt]

WARNING WARNING VERY LONG. I apologize in advance and many thanks to any that can help.

A little background:

Recently purchased a house with a pool (yippy) and now found that the pool has a leak ( ). I'm having a very difficult time determining the source of this leak. This all started when I noticed a wet spot in our lawn. Being that it was a bit away from the pool and it looked like it was a low spot I assumed poor drainage. I got to work building a small drain pit. While doing this I noticed my hole I was digging would just continually fill back up. By this time I started to assume there had to be a source to this water. I started digging with my hand in the hole I had dug and found a channel through the dirt that lead me to the edge of the pool decking. Dug another hole and drained this hole of water. Each time I drain the hole I can watch the water flow in and fill it back up. Now I'm stuck as to what I can do so I call in a "professional" to do some leak detection. He comes on out does his work and finds a few areas of concern. Patches those up and is on his way. I'm happy thinking we are done. I was wrong. I drain the hole for the next few hours and yet is still fills back up. Leak is still there. Call him to come back out but in the meantime mess around with it myself. I first noticed that the leak was near our spa so I played around with the depth of the water in the spa. I adjusted the depth of the water in the spa to various points that covered the jets, then below the lights, and finally to the bottom. Each time I would lower the water level a bit more the level of water in the hole that I had dug would decrease. But even with the spa completely drained (except for the drain) the hole would still receive water. The professional comes back out a week or so later and starts messing around with the main drain. Says he found something else does a bit more patching and I'm hoping this was finally it. Wrong again. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is a problem not with the pool/spa but maybe just a high water table. I did notice on the bottom of the spa that there's a small 2 inch diameter metal cover with a small hole in the middle of it. I'm thinking this could possibly be a pressure relief device that I've read about on here. If that's the case that would confirm a high water table and that I'm just wasting my money trying to find a leak in the pool/spa. Is there any other way to positively identify if the source of the water in my hole is actually coming from the pool before I shell out even more money? I work in the Oil and Gas industry and I know that we can perform analysis of a water sample to determine the source. I was thinking I could get a water test kit and if the water in the hole I dug has a high salt content (salt water pool) then it would confirm that it is indeed the pool that is leaking (but I'm also thinking that any salt would be taken up by the dirt as it travels from the pool to the hole). Any ideas folks?

Contact one of the larger pool service company's in your area. They have a relatively new breed of pressure testing equipment attached to a video monitor. Not only can they tell you that there is a leak, but they can actually show you exactly which line is leaking and the exact location of the leak.

If the first spot you noticed is in a direct line from the pool to the pump, usually a return line, that's probably the problem. However, the days of guessing are over thanks to this new equipment.

I already paid once for a "professional" to come and look for the leak. I don't know if I want to go down the route of paying someone else quite yet. Really what I'm looking for before I go any further with trying to get my money back from the original leak detection guy or to move on to someone else is to ensure this truly is a leak from my pool. As in it's not from a sprinkler system/high water table/ someone elses runoff. Is there some sort of test I can do on the water in the hole I dug that will confirm this truly is the pool water?

Thanks again

BTW. We did pressure testing of the entire pool. All the lines held fine. So I have doubts that adding a camera in to the mix would be any help.

[eric99gt]

WARNING WARNING VERY LONG. I apologize in advance and many thanks to any that can help.

A little background:

Recently purchased a house with a pool (yippy) and now found that the pool has a leak ( ). I'm having a very difficult time determining the source of this leak. This all started when I noticed a wet spot in our lawn. Being that it was a bit away from the pool and it looked like it was a low spot I assumed poor drainage. I got to work building a small drain pit. While doing this I noticed my hole I was digging would just continually fill back up. By this time I started to assume there had to be a source to this water. I started digging with my hand in the hole I had dug and found a channel through the dirt that lead me to the edge of the pool decking. Dug another hole and drained this hole of water. Each time I drain the hole I can watch the water flow in and fill it back up. Now I'm stuck as to what I can do so I call in a "professional" to do some leak detection. He comes on out does his work and finds a few areas of concern. Patches those up and is on his way. I'm happy thinking we are done. I was wrong. I drain the hole for the next few hours and yet is still fills back up. Leak is still there. Call him to come back out but in the meantime mess around with it myself. I first noticed that the leak was near our spa so I played around with the depth of the water in the spa. I adjusted the depth of the water in the spa to various points that covered the jets, then below the lights, and finally to the bottom. Each time I would lower the water level a bit more the level of water in the hole that I had dug would decrease. But even with the spa completely drained (except for the drain) the hole would still receive water. The professional comes back out a week or so later and starts messing around with the main drain. Says he found something else does a bit more patching and I'm hoping this was finally it. Wrong again. Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is a problem not with the pool/spa but maybe just a high water table. I did notice on the bottom of the spa that there's a small 2 inch diameter metal cover with a small hole in the middle of it. I'm thinking this could possibly be a pressure relief device that I've read about on here. If that's the case that would confirm a high water table and that I'm just wasting my money trying to find a leak in the pool/spa. Is there any other way to positively identify if the source of the water in my hole is actually coming from the pool before I shell out even more money? I work in the Oil and Gas industry and I know that we can perform analysis of a water sample to determine the source. I was thinking I could get a water test kit and if the water in the hole I dug has a high salt content (salt water pool) then it would confirm that it is indeed the pool that is leaking (but I'm also thinking that any salt would be taken up by the dirt as it travels from the pool to the hole). Any ideas folks?

Contact one of the larger pool service company's in your area. They have a relatively new breed of pressure testing equipment attached to a video monitor. Not only can they tell you that there is a leak, but they can actually show you exactly which line is leaking and the exact location of the leak.

If the first spot you noticed is in a direct line from the pool to the pump, usually a return line, that's probably the problem. However, the days of guessing are over thanks to this new equipment.

I already paid once for a "professional" to come and look for the leak. I don't know if I want to go down the route of paying someone else quite yet. Really what I'm looking for before I go any further with trying to get my money back from the original leak detection guy or to move on to someone else is to ensure this truly is a leak from my pool. As in it's not from a sprinkler system/high water table/ someone elses runoff. Is there some sort of test I can do on the water in the hole I dug that will confirm this truly is the pool water?

Thanks again

BTW. We did pressure testing of the entire pool. All the lines held fine. So I have doubts that adding a camera in to the mix would be any help.

Well still no solution. Still have a leak even after having the leak detection guy come out 3 times. It's getting really frustrating. The leak is extremely slow and it seems as if once the water in the hole reaches a certain depth it stops filling it up. Maybe someone can help me with the picture below. The expert has no idea what this is and was thinking it may have something to do with it. I'm referring to the metal cover at the bottom of the spa circled in red. Zoomed in on the second picture. Picture in the link provided. Also any other thoughts are appreciated. I'm really running out of options here.

Pool

[Pool Clown]

Is that one of those pressure relief valves I've heard about? That may be your leak. I hear that the rubber seals on those things can be replaced. A rebuild kit i guess.

I assume you have one in the pool as well?

Someone here is bound to know about them.

I would normally say drain the spa into the pool and see if the water dries up, but if there is a relief valve in the spa, and you say the water table is high, I don't want you to drain a glass of water, let alone your spa.

[eric99gt]

Ya i'm quite sure it's not a high water table that is causing my issue as I did some testing on the water in the hole and confirmed it was indeed pool water. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the cover on the bottom isn't a PRD.

[Pool Clown]

Ya i'm quite sure it's not a high water table that is causing my issue as I did some testing on the water in the hole and confirmed it was indeed pool water. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the cover on the bottom isn't a PRD.

No, I did not mean that your high water table is the issue. What i was suggesting was that maybe your pressure relief was not sealing correctly anymore and that is where your water is coming from.

[eric99gt]

Ya i'm quite sure it's not a high water table that is causing my issue as I did some testing on the water in the hole and confirmed it was indeed pool water. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the cover on the bottom isn't a PRD.

No, I did not mean that your high water table is the issue. What i was suggesting was that maybe your pressure relief was not sealing correctly anymore and that is where your water is coming from.

The fun with this pool never ends. Last night i'm chilling in the spa and being the fidgety person that I am take off my wedding ring. Well since I wasn't in the most sober of states I dropped it. And of course it goes right down the main drain. Doh. So this morning I get to work draining the spa to pull the cover on the drain and search in the hole. During this process I had the spa level below the PRD with only the main drain being full of water due to its connection with the pool. Sure enough hole still filled up. I'm betting it's that main drain. And no I never did find the ring. Hopefully it turns up in a basket filter somewhere but I doubt it.

[Pool Clown]

no I never did find the ring. Hopefully it turns up in a basket filter somewhere but I doubt it.

I wouldn't worry about the pool at this point, You're a dead man...

[eric99gt]

tell me about it. and sure enough I go out this morning to get some stuff from the garage and notice the pump is on yet there is no water circulating. Could my ring have gotten all the way from the drain to the pump and caused a blockage? I pulled out all the valves just to be sure nothing was blocking those and they were clear. Does pool ownership ever get easy?

[Pool Clown]

During this process I had the spa level below the PRD with only the main drain being full of water due to its connection with the pool. Sure enough hole still filled up. I'm betting it's that main drain. [/u][/b]And no I never did find the ring. Hopefully it turns up in a basket filter somewhere but I doubt it.

Quick question, How long are you waiting between the time you empty the spa and you decide that it's still leaking? I ask because it could take several hours before the water would stop fulling up the dug out hole depending how close the hole is to the leak.

[eric99gt]

During this process I had the spa level below the PRD with only the main drain being full of water due to its connection with the pool. Sure enough hole still filled up. I'm betting it's that main drain. [/u][/b]And no I never did find the ring. Hopefully it turns up in a basket filter somewhere but I doubt it.

Quick question, How long are you waiting between the time you empty the spa and you decide that it's still leaking? I ask because it could take several hours before the water would stop fulling up the dug out hole depending how close the hole is to the leak.

It's been various times. I've done it for like a day where I've had the level of the spa drained all the way to the floor yet water would still fill up that hole.

[eric99gt]

Well good news on the ring front. Found it. Pool guy came over today and by adjusting some valves was able to force the ring in to the pool equipment. So at least I can stay married through this ordeal lol.

Bad news is I still have a leak. Is there any way to plug up these main drains in the spa to confirm whether or not the water is indeed coming from there or would it also require me to plug up the drains in the pool as well? Are they all interconnected?

[Pool Clown]

I know that you can get 2" expandable plugs. Anything bigger i think you have to get the kind that blow up inside the pipe like a balloon.

Both or all drains in the spa should be plugged. It could be the spa suction line or the jet suction line so you want to plug all.

I was poking around in our store today and I saw this.

This is an anchor that you set into a floor or step to put an umbrella pole in. This one looks alot like yours only bigger. Try to put a wire or something in the hole and see if the lid will pop off and expose a place to put and umbrella pole.

[eric99gt]

I know that you can get 2" expandable plugs. Anything bigger i think you have to get the kind that blow up inside the pipe like a balloon.

Both or all drains in the spa should be plugged. It could be the spa suction line or the jet suction line so you want to plug all.

I was poking around in our store today and I saw this.

This is an anchor that you set into a floor or step to put an umbrella pole in. This one looks alot like yours only bigger. Try to put a wire or something in the hole and see if the lid will pop off and expose a place to put and umbrella pole.

Holy crap. That does look alot like what I have. I'll mess around with it tonight and see if I can pull that cover. Can you explain a bit more when you say spa suction line vs a jet suction line? I notice I have two what look like drains in my spa. One on the side and one on the bottom. Is one for the jets and the other just for debris and to drain the spa? BTW pool clown. Thanks so much for your advice during this ordeal. I may not be fixing the problem but I'm learning a lot.

Also I caused another slight issue. I was screwing around with a valve trying to figure out how it operated (automatic valve) and i slightly damaged the mating surface for the cover while prying it up to get inside to see the valve. I'm thinking just throwing some teflon on there would fix the issue as it's just a weep of water that's escaping. Good idea?

[Pool Clown]

If you have a separate pump for the jets, you could have as many as four lines in the main drains. If your jets run off the filter pump, then perhaps only two lines. plug em all. Typically the suction is split in the spa, so if you have two pipes, then it's probably just suction for the filter pump.

See if you can post a pic of the valve so I can see what happened.

[eric99gt]

Well it looks as if you were spot on. Sure enough it is indeed a umbrella holder. As for the drains. Mainly I was concerned with if it's likely that they're tied in to the drains for the pool. As such I was thinking if I plug up the ones in the spa I'll still have water entering the line I think is leaking from the pool. This would negate my attempt to determine if the spa drain line is the leaker.

[Pool Clown]

You should be able to separate the pool suction /main drain from the spa with the valves at the equipment.

[txpoolguy]

Perhaps I overlooked it, but I don't see where you mention how much water your'e losing from the pool daily. Measure the water loss in your pool. If you're not seeing significant water loss in the pool, it may just be drainage, or possibly coming from a leak in your home plumbing, or other source. It is possible that the spa water level could be coincidental.

Fill your pool to the normal level, mark the level with a piece of duct tape or black marker. Inside the skimmer can be a good place to mark since it won't be visible. Run the pool for 24 hours and use a tape measure to record the water loss. Mark the new level and let the pool sit completely idle for 24. Record the water loss.

Normal loss rates vary depending on where you live and weather such as rain, wind, humidity, etc. will also cause the rate to vary. More than 1/4" per day could be excessive, depending on a variety of other. Post your findings here.

[eric99gt]

Perhaps I overlooked it, but I don't see where you mention how much water your'e losing from the pool daily. Measure the water loss in your pool. If you're not seeing significant water loss in the pool, it may just be drainage, or possibly coming from a leak in your home plumbing, or other source. It is possible that the spa water level could be coincidental.

Fill your pool to the normal level, mark the level with a piece of duct tape or black marker. Inside the skimmer can be a good place to mark since it won't be visible. Run the pool for 24 hours and use a tape measure to record the water loss. Mark the new level and let the pool sit completely idle for 24. Record the water loss.

Normal loss rates vary depending on where you live and weather such as rain, wind, humidity, etc. will also cause the rate to vary. More than 1/4" per day could be excessive, depending on a variety of other. Post your findings here.

It's a minimal amount. Not even enough to notice until the next rain. But I know for sure it's a leak from the pool. I only found it due to a wet spot in the yard and have dug up that area to find a hole that continually fills up when I empty it. Also I've tested both the salt level in the pool and the hole I dug and sure enough the same concentration of water exists in both.

[billp]

Another test you can try is for stabilizer (CYA) (conditioner). Test the pool then your leak water. If the CYA in the leak water is similar to the pool I would say it is pool water. If it is zero in the leak water I don't consider it conclusive.

Have you checked the pool and spa light conduits? You could have a cracked/split/damaged conduit leaking. A fun one to track down...

If you have hydrostatic relief valves in the main drains they should unscrew and you can check the sealing surfaces. I would plug the holes while checking just in case there is a bottomless pit under the pool!

[eric99gt]

Well it looks like I'll have to hire someone else. First guy was a flake and now no longer responds to phone calls. Sometimes it's better to pay the higher cost to start. Already confirmed it's for sure coming from the pool. Exact same salt level as the pool. Now I just have to find it. The flake said he checked the pool and spa light conduits and they were fine. I'm skeptical of his results though. We'll see. Found a review of his online after the fact where another customer had the exact same experience. Came out once, made a few minor grout repairs, and took off. Leak not fixed and never to be heard from again.

[mickey4paws]

Well it looks like I'll have to hire someone else. First guy was a flake and now no longer responds to phone calls. Sometimes it's better to pay the higher cost to start. Already confirmed it's for sure coming from the pool. Exact same salt level as the pool. Now I just have to find it. The flake said he checked the pool and spa light conduits and they were fine. I'm skeptical of his results though. We'll see. Found a review of his online after the fact where another customer had the exact same experience. Came out once, made a few minor grout repairs, and took off. Leak not fixed and never to be heard from again.

Having someone competent work on your pool can make all the difference in the world. We had a leak last year, couldn't figure out where from. PB figured out that a tree root had gotten into one of the lines, and he fixed it. No more leak. Anyway, I would definitely agree you should get someone else out there. Good luck and I hope you get it fixed.

[4serendipity]

You sound like you have done a fair amount of work to diagnose the leak in your pool, however some critical information is missing and a few initial steps have been skipped. I have written a huge tutorial on DIY leak detection in swimming pools which you can read at http://www.findaleak.ca and I would strongly suggest that you read through the tutorial in full as this will allow you to go step by step through the process of finding your leak.

Even if you are not able to locate the leak yourself the tutorial will teach you the terminology you need to describe the problem to us in enough detail that someone here may be able to help further.

I hope this information is helpful.

S

[eric99gt]

You sound like you have done a fair amount of work to diagnose the leak in your pool, however some critical information is missing and a few initial steps have been skipped. I have written a huge tutorial on DIY leak detection in swimming pools which you can read at http://www.findaleak.ca and I would strongly suggest that you read through the tutorial in full as this will allow you to go step by step through the process of finding your leak.

Even if you are not able to locate the leak yourself the tutorial will teach you the terminology you need to describe the problem to us in enough detail that someone here may be able to help further.

I hope this information is helpful.

S

Is there anything specifically that you are referring to? I've read through the majority of your tutorial (very good by the way) and don't see anything that would really help me in my case. Many of your methods for determing where the leak is originating will not work as the pool just doesn't leak water that fast. By the time anything would be noticed in the level of the pool it would have surely rained and replenished that loss. I'm talking extremely slow leak. If it wasn't for the wet ground I would have never noticed it. Maybe one day I'll have it fixed...lol.

Thanks