4serendipity

Spa_guru - You say that Arctic Spas most advanced aspect is their marketing and that they have not been in business long enough to develop a good product. You are 100% wrong in my PROFESSIONAL opinion. Absolutely any person who looks at an arctic spa in person will see that they are built completely different than all other spas on the market in Canada. They may not have been in business as long as other spa companies, but long enough all the same to become the number 1 hot tub dealer in Canada. And the UK. And Russia. And Scandanavia. And almost every cold weather Country in the world. One of Canada's 50 best managed companies 2006, 2007, 2008 & 2009. I have worked on and with almost every major hot tub brand in Canada, literally from coast to coast. Nothing compares to an arctic spa and I would, and DO, stake my companies reputation on it since I recommend them to my clients. I hope this information is helpful. S.

If you cant understand why something bought in a different Country can be cheaper than your Country then you do not understand economics and trade. This is not a hot tub issue at all. This is a government and regulations issue. Why is bottled water more expensive in Canada? I don't know either but I don't think I would blame Arctic Spas for it. Tubs made for sale in the US could very likely be built to a different standard or different specs than a tub for sale in Canada. Dealer issues, cross boarder issues, taxes, shipping concerns etc all play into this equation. Complaining about a dealer that would rather lose a sale then sell you a product they cant service properly does not make sense to me. They want you to be happy and if the potential exists that they would not be able to make you happy, then they would rather pass on the sale. To me, this just reaffirms why I have been promoting Arctic Spas to my clients for years. Also, FYI if you call in and ask for pricing from Arctic you will always get the sticker price. When you go in person and allow them to explain how their tubs work, then you get the real pricing. They are about the same as other high end tub retailers in terms of pricing. S.

Hi There, I feel compelled to chime in here. Threads like this are probably read by thousands of people and it would be an injustice for readers to believe this is true of Arctic Spas. I am a concete pool and hot tub builder in Canada. I own and operate two businesses in this capacity, one in Ontario and one in Vancouver. I have a working relationship with Arctic Spas so you may think that my opinion is biased, but consider that I work with Arctic Spas because of the service team and after sales support. I have sold thousands of acrylic spas, of almost every make and description in the past to my clients. The level of service that my customers get from Arctic is hands down, night and day better than any other spa manufacturer or dealer I have worked with. They are actually listed as one of the best managed companies in Canada. As an award winning builder in this industry with over 2 generations and many decades of experience, I can easily say that you can not have a bad reputation for after sales service and still be acclaimed for best in the Country management of the company. Someone needed to say it. Arctic takes a lot of heat and exposure for the simple reason that they are #1 in virtually every capacity when it comes to acylic hot tubs. My concrete hot tubs are still superior, but I will give arctic a close second =) If you are on the fence about buying an Arctic Spa, and live in either Ontario or Vancouver, PM me or call me at 1-888-818-POOL I hope this information is helpful. S.

Let me be the first person to go on record saying that a salt water system takes more understanding and time than using a microwave. That sounds like a very "sales-ey" think to say. Salt water systems have the potantial to be very easy to use, but they also have the potential to be compliated, frustrating and difficult to troubleshoot. When my customers ask about salt systems I make sure they understand two things: 1) This is NOT a chlorine or bromine based sanitizer system. Salt is chemically related to chlorine / bromine. You are just making your own sanitizer via a miniature chemical recycling station. 2) Do not purchse a salt water system because it is maintenance free. Purchase a salt water system because you want the physical benefits that come from salt water sanitizer generators like softer skin, less smell and reduced red eyes / itchy skin. If you want the salt system to provide a reduced maintenance schedule for your spa, then you will need to make some initial investments such as the investment in descaling chemicals, pre-filters and a high end test kit, but also time investment into water chemistry and how salt water systems work (and fail) in hot tubs. The more you understand water chemistry in spas the less time you will spend maintaining your water. No secret here. Except Aqua Finesse. Aqua finesse is the secret =) I hope this information is helpful. S.

Have you had a phosphate test done to your water? This is not a normal test done for hot tubs unless there is a reason to suspect that phosphate levels may be an issue. For example pretty much any rural water source will have phosphates. If the phosphate level is at all significant then you can expect that your salt system will need to work overtime to develop a sanitizer level. Because this is not a standard test for spa water in all cases, a phosphate level can go undetected longer when troubleshooting water quality issues. It is especially important for salt water systems as the generator has trouble overcoming the bacteria production in the water. Heavy doses of oxidizer can help with this, more for sodium bromide than sodium chloride systems, but the real solution is to remove the phosphates from the water. I always use a pre filter for my clients, as well as my personal hot tub. Even if you are not on a rural water supply, metals and other contaminants in the water can play havoc with water chemistry - again, most especially with salt water systems. In regards to the filter question you asked, pleated filters tend to work better for salt water tubs as the much more dense disposable style filters can get clogged easily from calcium formation due to high pH levels. Even through the water is softer than a traditional tub from the salt content, the calcium can be pulled out of solution easily with a high pH. Why this is significant is because most, if not all salt sanitizer generators create sanitizer with a high pH. It takes continual corrective action to keep the pH from climbing. If you don't do this, or do not do this enough, calcium hardens and the ultra fine disposable filters can plug. FYI- I love the disposable filters and recommend them to all my clients. If water clarity becomes an issue I will move them back to the reusable pleated style filters. The ease of use and fine filter medium makes the disposable filters best for everyone except those who have problems with plugged filters. As to the relative reliability of pool salt water systems over spa salt water systems - yes this is 100% true. EXCEPT for the consideration that the generation system is not the problem, the volume of water body is the problem. Pools are huge and even a bunch of filthy swimmers have little overall impact on the overall sanitizer levels. A hot tub full of people is the relative same as hundreds of bathers in a swimming pool. Pool systems are not more reliable, to be accurate, pool and hot tub salt water systems are of equal quality. Maintaining hot tub water chemistry is much more difficult than maintaining pool water chemistry when it comes to the specific example of salt water system sanitizer levels. I hope you find this information helpful. S.

I see that you posted this a while ago, but for other readers with this problem: I advise my clients after a fresh fill in a spa to expect at least three days until sanitizer levels begin to rise. Use an oxidizer, like the refresh product in your case, and this will assist with developing sanitizer levels. Patience is key. Salt sanitizer generators work in much the same way that a trickle charger charges a battery. I hope this information is helpful. S.

Glad to hear that everything is working out well for you! The chlorine output of the Onzen system has a pH of 14 so it will continue to elevate the pH over time acting much like a trickle charger for a battery. By the time you have too much sanitizer in the water the pH will be way too high and it is harder to lower pH than raise it which is why you needed to add pH- for five days in a row. As per my understanding of the sanitizer output of the Onzen it has very little output on the lower settings for tubs that see little use and contaminants where the higher CP settings create enough sanitizer for a "party tub". If it is just one or two people in the tub occasionally set the CP to 2 or so, where 4 is enough for most high exposure tubs. Since the Ozone system cranks out somewhere in the range of 150mg of ozone per hour and takes care of the majority of the contaminants in the tub. You technically only need about .5 ppm of sanitizer in the water with this system. Up to 3ppm is fine, but less is better to minimize any negative effects on people with sensitive skin. A range of 1-5ppm of sanitizer is given as accetpable since maintaining an exact .5ppm is difficult to be sure. Having 0ppm is totally unacceptable and unsafe and most people are fine with 1-3ppm and even up to 5ppm for most people. I keep my personal tub at between .5 and 1ppm of sanitizer and use a digital tester for keeping the pH as close to 7.4 as possible. TA at around 60ppm and calcium hardness of around 150ppm to helo keep any bubbles from forming. For the original poster of this thread, as you can see there is a little learning curve to the Onzen but once you get it under control you will have a relatively maintenance free system. S

The concept of using test strips and adding salt leads me to think that the sodium level in your tub was not sufficient to generate enough sanitizer. Additionally by adding the salt he is softening the water. I would be interested to know what the calcium hardness was in the water. If you have not done so recently I would recommend to bring your water into the dealer and have it tested. Doing this is just part of spa ownership and can help to spot problems before they really become problems. All that being said, I hear your position of the tub being brand new and you feel that the system should be up and running fine, but instead you are looking at a swampy hot tub wondering if you should go in. My advice is two part. One, do NOT go into the hot tub until you are certain that you have resolved any potential sanitizer issues with the water. Its not worth the risk. The second part of my advice may sound like I am picking on you but I assure you that I am not. I completely understand your frustration in that you made an investement and you want to benefit from it. I can not tell you how many swimming pools I have built that turned green after the new owners took over. 99 times out of 100 this is due to a lack of understanding of water chemistry. Most specifically just to jump straight to the point, keeping a body of water completely sterile and pH netutral via chemicals in spite of constant temperature, UV, organic and biological exposure changes is complicated. Many pools and spas that I have built were for immensely intelligent, rich and powerful people that could buy and sell my meaningless arse any day of the week. Many of these people were hopeless with maintaining their water. I have no doubt that you can follow instructions and I am hopeful that your spa technician knew his stuff. I would call your sales person directly and ask for some help on what to do next. If you are having problems then it is important to communicate clearly with the company and give them the opportunity to make it right. Once water has started to go off, it can take a little patience to get it back again. If the technician told you the tub would clear up in a time frame and you have waited this long plus a small reasonable period of additional time, then call them again. In my opinion, a good company is not defined by how well they do, but how well they do when everything is going wrong. =) I have not seen your water, and I do not know the whole story that leads you up to this point, but I do have customers on every generation of Onzen with great success. They love their systems. Keep me up to speed on this. I would be interested to know where it goes from here. Ideally you should be checking your water at your dealership every few days until the water is clear. They use a digital testing station which is much more advanced than in-field testing strips. Good luck! S

Aqua Finesse is the real deal. I tell evey spa owner with ears to go on this system however many are scared off by the seemingly high initial kit costs, which are in fact quite reasonable once you understand just how much this product will improve the quality of your spa owning experience. If you have not tried it, and have found this thread and are wondering if this product is right for you, I STRONGLY encourage you to give it a try. Just be sure to have you water balanced (esp pH and TA) before you use the product in your spa. I am a pool and spa contractor in Canada with hundreds of happy concrete and acrylic spa clients. If you want to know more about aqua finesse call me directly at 1-888-818-POOL and I would be happy to answer any questions that you have. I have absolutely no business affiliation with the makers of this product - I am just a big supporter of finding ways to make pool and spa ownership more enjoyable and this is one for sure. I hope this information is helpful. S

Yikes...test the water for sure. The salt system is easier on the skin and eyes that a regular chlorine or bromine tub that is well balanced. If you have rash and itch then they water chemistry is off. Way off. Clear water is not enough, go to your dealer and test the water. In fact, do this often until you get the hang of water maintenance. I hope thi information is helpful. S

I have fielded more than a few calls about this very problem with the Onzen salt systems on arctic tubs. Some problems are easy to solve while others require more consideration but I am certain that I can shed some light on your situation. The electrodes themselves work fine. The problem is that the electrodes are suceptible to scale formation which impacts the ability for the system to generate sanitizer. The tendancy for scale to form is exponentially higher depending on the users ability to maintain correct water chemistry. Essentially the system works great but has very little tolerance for imbalenced water before problems occur. Also the sanitizer output capacity of the early generations was barely adequate, but I believe that this is now resolved. The scale formation is no different than that which caused early heating element failure which still is a rampant problem with most big name spa dealers. Again, the elements are fine but have a tendancy to accumulate scale which causes failure. Calcium hardness, over 150 or 200 ppm or so will see scale formation. 400ppm, which would be fine, though high, in a chlorine or bromine based tub would almost certainly cause scale formation on the electrodes in a salt tub. Any salt tub, not just the Arctic Onzen. In my professional opinion, the formation of scale and sensitivity to water chemistry are less of the problem, with the main problem being the servicability of the product. The filter in your tub needs service, however the design facilitates easy inspection, changing or cleaning of the integral components. Not so with an Onzen salt system. Not their fault really since it is too complicated of a system to have people servicing it themselves, but if it was easier to physically check the scale formation on the electrodes then this would result in a lot less worry for the spa owner. I have a few clients running the new Onzen 7 and so far everyone is as pleased as can be. I tend to do a little more coaching than the typical contractor as long term satisfaction means a great deal to me and that might help with some of the smaller issues also. FYI- Arctic also uses Genesis brand salt water systems which I have worked with for years with almost no problems. Highly recommended. I know some folks over at Arctic and they are on a whole different level than other hot tub retailers I have worked with. I have sold almost every brand of acrylic hot tub ever created, and I have built hundreds of concrete spas to boot so I know what I am looking for from a quality spa. If you bought an arctic spa, you bought the highest quality acrylic hot tub in the world IMO. You pay for the quality, but if that concept surprises you then you must be from Mars. Onzen is good, service is top notch and quality is unsurpassed. That is, if you cant afford the concrete hot tub that I want to build you =). I hope this information is helpful, S

Pool base is the correct material. Vermiculite as found in gardening stores is similar but not as fine as pool base. Pool base is also packaged and sold as xonolite which is a fine vermiculite blended with bonding agents. The bags are sold in 4 cubic foot which you would mix 2 bags to one bag of portland cement (88lbs) for a reliable and easy to trowel lightweight concrete. Mixing pool base can be tough and overmixing will reduce the yield dramatically. A paddle style mortar mixer works best and batch only for 2 minutes or so one you add the pool base. Just some additional information... Cheers. S

When installed "properly" a layer of vermiculite concrete about one inch thick is applied over a rough floated mortar that is installed on the pool floor during the pouring of the concrete collar at the base of the walls. This would prevent any rocks from making their way up through the much softer vermiculite. Essentially it is the best of both worlds for the strength of the concrete and the protection and insualtion value of the vermiculite. I hope this information is helpful. S.

This problem usually relates to a coping issue and the tile is simply the symptom of the problem. There is no amount of caulk that will keep water out if it has a path to follow. Is it an option to do a new coping for your pool? What is the current coping material? S.

In this situation the culprit is usually the coping itself. The tile band popping off is the sympton of the problem and the coping will need to be removed and repoured. Then you can re-mud and tile the perimiter and expect lasting results. I hope this information is helpful. S.

I am a second generation pool builder with gunite, vinyl liner and fiberglass experience. I wrote an article about this topic comparing the advantages and disadvatages of each one. If my opinion the best swimming pools made in the world are made of concrete. If you can afford one then you should buy one. If you want all the information and decide for yourself which is best you can read the article: Concrete, Vinyl Liner & Fiberglass

I agree that the pebble finish can create more opportunity for algae to grow. The plain finish of a standard marblite / marcite makes it easy to spot when anything begins to deveop on the walls or the floor. I also agree that the length of time that the interior surface of your pool lasts will depend on the quality of the installation as well how well you maintain the pool. I hope this information is helpful. S.

Grout bottom pools are the most popular in North America and this is your standard mortar mix. When installed well it is very strong and resistant to wear from water migration and shifting. If a grout bottom pool is not installed well the rough finish will wear on the back of the liner like sandpaper over time as the liner shifts under different water conditions. This would decrease the expected lifetime of the liner. A vermiculite bottom pool when installed correctly is very confortable and will increase the heat loss efficiency of the pool dramatically. Grout has almost no insulation value where vermiculite is an excellent insulator. The verminulite floor will likely cost a little more to install and a grout bottom pool would be just fine also but with rising maintenance costs for pools I would personally receommed to take every step you can to help create a pool that operates with minimimal ongoing costs. I hope you find this information helpful. S.

You could potentially turn the pool into an organic swimming pond. It would take some reaearch and worj to be sure but the end result can be self sustaining. You need to increase the oxygen in the water by installing a waterfall or two as well as changing the aquatic structure by adding organic materials to the floors and bringing in various forms of aquatic plants that will survice in the local climate. Tons of information is available online for this relatively unknown subject. You do not need chlorine or other santizers that are designed to kill everything, good or bad, in the water. Instead embrace a natural ecosystem approach to water sanitation by utilizing plants and other forms of beneficial aquatic life. I hope this information is helpful. S

If I have read your post correctly it would appear that the backwash line that you are refering to would in fact be a drainage line in which case your description of water coming out of the pipe as a result of a liner seam failure would make perfect sense. The water surrounding your pool is being diverted away through a drainage pipe that exits your property at a low point well away from the pool. The backwash line from your filter is a seperate line that either discharges at a collection tank or could even potentially could be tied into the drainage line that you are referring to depending on what your local municiple and building codes required circa the time your pool was built. I hope this information is helpful. S

I was referring to the pool cracking or lifting as a result of a high water table (like in spring time) when the pool water level is down significantly due to winterization (or prolonged water loss over the winter season). Not every pool has a sump tank installed next to it to mitigate ground water issues. Over time, especially in developing areas, the water table can change drastically so a pool that had little to no ground water when it was built may have significant ground water when it is drained for renovation / repair 20 years later. The hydrostatic relief valve is your last line of defence against hydrostatic pressure, and sometimes your only line of defence when there are no other viable options for controlling ground water. S

I would like to know what circumstances related to proper pool maintenance you think could result in such a crack. A hydrostatic relief valve is a mechanical contact. Mechanical contacts by nature wear out over time and are thereby classified as a maintenance item. If you do not periodically inspect and replace the hydrostatic valve it will eventually not operate leaving your pool completely unprotected against lifting, heaving and cracking. If you have any other questions about swimming pools please let me know and I will be happy to help you. S

You need to make sure you are well researched before attempting this project. Installing a natural stone waterfall has the potential to ruin your pool if installed incorrectly so dont risk your investment without proper research. Most specifically you are going to introduce a very heavy structure resting on one of the walls of your pool. Additional support will be required and will be dependant on the weight and configuration you choose for your waterfall. Woe is you if the area you built on is not compacted properly or has insufficient structual support. I am a big fan of artificial rock waterfalls for this reason. To clarify, when I say artificial rock I am referring to concrete rocks that look and and feel exactly like the real thing, and not plastic rocks which look like plastic rocks. That being said if you have the machinery on site already required to move huge boulders, and a surpluss of 5000-10000 pound boulders available to you then you can create a fantastic waterfall. Most waterfalls of this type are, like a previoous poster referenced, placed with mortar to create a somewhat waterproof seal. Additionally many waterfalls of this type utilize a cold or torch on membrane under the structure to create a more reliable waterproofing. Be sure to choose membrane suitable for load bearing applications should you choose to go this route. You can mitigate the liklihood of waterloss by designing a waterway that has sufficient slope to encourage the water to run off directly back into the pool. The water will not leak through solid rock itself, but more where the rocks join together. If you can minimize or eliminate the tendancy for water to access the joints then you can reduce the liklihood of water escaping the system. The downside of this is that you could potentially compromise the authentic quality of the waterfall itself. If you can exit the water onto the waterway in such a fashion that is does not contact any mortar joints while still looking natural you have minimized the chance of leakage. Sealants can help to make the mortar joints and rock less permeable but are mostly unreliable as a primary form of water retention. You may like to consider adding a "sheer decent" to your waterfall to have the water arc off the structure into the pool. this aggitates the water less that allowing it to tumble down a rock face and will be easier on chemical and heat loss. I hope some of this information is helpful. S

For other people experiencing similar problems you can read the DIY swimming pool leak tutorial I have written at http://www.findaleak.ca which is written to help the average pool owner understand the process a professional ises when leak detecting. I hope this information is helpful. S