gcaLuna13 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi All, I have a Keys Backyard Spa Model # KB331dx - with an internal "VS Series" controller unit #54358 Model#keys100d. The spa has been running perfectly for a little over a year now. This morning I noticed the outdoor disconnect breaker (that is mounted on the outside of my house) had tripped. I reset the breaker and it tripped again instantly. Each time I tried I heard a light click and then the breaker would trip. I open the VS Series unit and pulled off all the external wiring (to motor, to top side unit, to light, to heater, ...etc) one at a time to eliminate a trouble source downstream, but the outdoor breaker kept tripping. I then started lifting 1 side of each fuse one at a time to isolate board circuitry. The breaker once again kept tripping until I got to fuse F4 - 300 mA - 250V I started putting everything back into place (wires & fuses and F4 as well - all back to normal) and the breaker tripped again. I then lifted one end of the fuse F4 and the breaker did NOT trip this time. The problem has to be downstream of F4 but I don't have a schematic. Does anyone know where I can get a schematic or can offer advice? I'm an engineer so I should be able to figure it out with the schematic. Thanks for your help, Luna13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hi All, I have a Keys Backyard Spa Model # KB331dx - with an internal "VS Series" controller unit #54358 Model#keys100d. The spa has been running perfectly for a little over a year now. This morning I noticed the outdoor disconnect breaker (that is mounted on the outside of my house) had tripped. I reset the breaker and it tripped again instantly. Each time I tried I heard a light click and then the breaker would trip. I open the VS Series unit and pulled off all the external wiring (to motor, to top side unit, to light, to heater, ...etc) one at a time to eliminate a trouble source downstream, but the outdoor breaker kept tripping. I then started lifting 1 side of each fuse one at a time to isolate board circuitry. The breaker once again kept tripping until I got to fuse F4 - 300 mA - 250V I started putting everything back into place (wires & fuses and F4 as well - all back to normal) and the breaker tripped again. I then lifted one end of the fuse F4 and the breaker did NOT trip this time. The problem has to be downstream of F4 but I don't have a schematic. Does anyone know where I can get a schematic or can offer advice? I'm an engineer so I should be able to figure it out with the schematic. Thanks for your help, Luna13 Most of time, tripping on Balboa packs is the heater... disconnect both lines going to the heater and see if it still trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Most of time, tripping on Balboa packs is the heater... disconnect both lines going to the heater and see if it still trips. Are they the 2 pair 16awg black/red cables? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Are they the 2 pair 16awg black/red cables? If so, I tried those as well, but thanks anyhow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 no, find the heater... it's silver tube along the bottom of the pack. it has 2 terminals on it usally connected with copper flat straps. disconnect both. reset to see if still trips. dont pull fuses to find the faults either, unplug the componets seperately untill the breaker will reset. last disconnect the spa from the breaker to see if its a bad breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottubdan Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Same reply I saw someone else give on a Costco spa. Did you buy it at Costco? If so, return it. Your troubles have just begun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Same reply I saw someone else give on a Costco spa. Did you buy it at Costco? If so, return it. Your troubles have just begun. Home Depot... same thing I suppose. Just found out that "Keys Backyard" is Defunct. Great. I hope I can still find parts for my VS Series controller. Any 'Parts folks' out there? Luna13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The VS Series 501 is a very common pack made by Balboa. Did you test the fuse with a volt meter by chance to see for sure if it was still good. But more than likely your heater element is toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The VS Series 501 is a very common pack made by Balboa. Did you test the fuse with a volt meter by chance to see for sure if it was still good. But more than likely your heater element is toast. Thanks... Well the breaker tripped unti I removed fuse F4. At that point the breaker did not trip. I replaced F4 (carefully while breaker was still in working order) and the breaker tripped instantly. So my logic is that the fuse works (at least in allowing current to get to the rest of F4's circuitry) because the breaker tripped. If the fuse was "Open" it would be the same as not having a fuse at all. The breaker trips due to something after the fuse... right? Does this logic work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 The VS Series 501 is a very common pack made by Balboa. Did you test the fuse with a volt meter by chance to see for sure if it was still good. But more than likely your heater element is toast. Now that "Keys Backyard" is no more... Is there a place to buy parts? Used Parts? Thanks, Luna13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 The VS Series 501 is a very common pack made by Balboa. Did you test the fuse with a volt meter by chance to see for sure if it was still good. But more than likely your heater element is toast. Now that "Keys Backyard" is no more... Is there a place to buy parts? Used Parts? Thanks, Luna13 Ps. Is there someone who knows the dip switch 0-1meanings for my VS series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALASKA RECREATIONAL Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 f-4 controles the power to the transformer a few outher things. you need to find out if you have a short in the system of do you have "GFCI" trip from the transformer sending current to the ground wire. disconnect the GROUND wire. copper wire on the left outside of the box. power up tub. if it dosn't trip, then pour a cup of water on the earth and check to see how much voltage you have between the water on the earth. then do the same to the copper ground wire. if it 63 volts, then it the transformer. call balboa and get one of their $125 rebuilt boards. """0""" dip setting test mode leave down/OFF this has nothing to do with your problem """1""" dip setting small or large push button controler. on the keys single motor tub, this should be down/OFF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 f-4 controles the power to the transformer a few outher things. you need to find out if you have a short in the system of do you have "GFCI" trip from the transformer sending current to the ground wire. disconnect the GROUND wire. copper wire on the left outside of the box. power up tub. if it dosn't trip, then pour a cup of water on the earth and check to see how much voltage you have between the water on the earth. then do the same to the copper ground wire. if it 63 volts, then it the transformer. call balboa and get one of their $125 rebuilt boards. """0""" dip setting test mode leave down/OFF this has nothing to do with your problem """1""" dip setting small or large push button controler. on the keys single motor tub, this should be down/OFF cup of water and earth, what? Just a thought.. wouldn't pulling the fuse from the primary side transformer also power down the secondary side of the transformer? Seeing as how the relays use the secondary voltage on the coils to close, would that leave all the relays open? I would think that would stop the triping right there if it were any componet that were on a relay.. such as the ozonator, pumps, blower, heater, lights, stereo transformer.... or am i wrong? I still think you should disconnect each componet seperatly untill the breaker resets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALASKA RECREATIONAL Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Check the voltage between the water in the tub and earth with the GROUND wire disconnected. DON'T disconnect the common (white) wire. I have been fixing BALBOA VS series boxes for 4 years now, when the transformer goes bad the GFCI trips. thats the way balboa designed their internal wiring on their boards. skywalker did you read this person post ??? he said, I open the VS Series unit and pulled off all the external wiring (to motor, to top side unit, to light, to heater, ...etc) one at a time to eliminate a trouble source downstream, but the outdoor breaker kept tripping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hi, Thanks for everyone's input... much appreciated. The last thing I did was pull the heater off the board and turn the breaker back on, as someone suggested my problem is most likely my heater. At that point the breaker did not trip. So I started thinking maybe this person is right, but it could still be a "completed circuit" thing, so I left the unit hot and pushed the right copper band back onto the board stud. Ok.. so good. I then pushed the left copper band back onto the stud. The breaker tripped. Ok, fine. The problem seems to be when I get the heater back into circuit with the left lead, but in my mind it could still be the overall circuitry -being that the heater just completes the loop. So I did the process in reverse... Power on... no heater involved yet... pushed the left copper band back onto the circuit board... the breaker pops. The board circuitry is not "Made" because the right lead (the good one from pervious test) was not connected yet. So know I'm thinking, "It must be the heater." Does anybody think it could still possibly be anything OTHER than the heater? It seems pretty logical to me, but I'm not a computer componet specialist. Thanks for any more input, Luna13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hi, Thanks for everyone's input... much appreciated. The last thing I did was pull the heater off the board and turn the breaker back on, as someone suggested my problem is most likely my heater. At that point the breaker did not trip. So I started thinking maybe this person is right, but it could still be a "completed circuit" thing, so I left the unit hot and pushed the right copper band back onto the board stud. Ok.. so good. I then pushed the left copper band back onto the stud. The breaker tripped. Ok, fine. The problem seems to be when I get the heater back into circuit with the left lead, but in my mind it could still be the overall circuitry -being that the heater just completes the loop. So I did the process in reverse... Power on... no heater involved yet... pushed the left copper band back onto the circuit board... the breaker pops. The board circuitry is not "Made" because the right lead (the good one from pervious test) was not connected yet. So know I'm thinking, "It must be the heater." Does anybody think it could still possibly be anything OTHER than the heater? It seems pretty logical to me, but I'm not a computer componet specialist. Thanks for any more input, Luna13 Dude, its the heater. One heater relay is closed at all times when the board is energized, (Except for when it goes into a o.h. condition, a hi limit call opens it). the other relay closes during heat cycles. If you connected the leg that is switched (on the right), it wont trip till the board closes the heater relay after the whole primer 7 minutes deal. because, there is no power to the heater on that leg. If it runs without both heater legs connected, it's the heater. Let me know if it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Dude, its the heater. One heater relay is closed at all times when the board is energized, (Except for when it goes into a o.h. condition, a hi limit call opens it). the other relay closes during heat cycles. If you connected the leg that is switched (on the right), it wont trip till the board closes the heater relay after the whole primer 7 minutes deal. because, there is no power to the heater on that leg. If it runs without both heater legs connected, it's the heater. Let me know if it works. Sooooooooo....... are you saying it's the heater Yeah, I actually ordered the heating element for $50 the first time you told me. It should be in any day now. I was thinking of plugging it inline before taking the trouble of installing it back in the pipe first.... just in case. But I'm sure it's the heater. What do you think? Anyhow, I'll let you know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 If it runs without both heater legs connected, it's the heater. Ps. I didn't say anything about running... just that the breaker didn't trip. But I'm hoping it's all the same. We'll see. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 It should run... Don't try to wire the element up unless it's installed in the manifold and the spa is full of water and ready to go! You do not want to dry fire that element! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 It should run... Don't try to wire the element up unless it's installed in the manifold and the spa is full of water and ready to go! You do not want to dry fire that element! Yeah, but what about just to see if it pops the breaker? That's all I was planing to do. I'd hate to get it all back together fill the tub and find out I'm back at the starting gate. I'll know it the second the breaker is flipped if I got the right fix. Then I'll shut the breaker off (providing it doesn't do it on it's own - fingers crossed) and do it up right. Good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Look it's yours, but I personally wouldn't do that... in theory it would work. but, it's fairly quick and easy to install that element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Look it's yours, but I personally wouldn't do that... in theory it would work. but, it's fairly quick and easy to install that element. ok. I'll give it a try and let you know what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcaLuna13 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It should run... Don't try to wire the element up unless it's installed in the manifold and the spa is full of water and ready to go! You do not want to dry fire that element! Thanks Otis. ... It WAS the heater. All is well again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis_skywalker Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It should run... Don't try to wire the element up unless it's installed in the manifold and the spa is full of water and ready to go! You do not want to dry fire that element! Thanks Otis. ... It WAS the heater. All is well again. It hurts to say this.... But, I told you so! Good Luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendig Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Sooooooooo....... are you saying it's the heater Yeah, I actually ordered the heating element for $50 the first time you told me. It should be in any day now. I was thinking of plugging it inline before taking the trouble of installing it back in the pipe first.... just in case. But I'm sure it's the heater. What do you think? Anyhow, I'll let you know how it goes. I need one of these. Where did you find it for 50 bucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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