Simple Question... (yeah Right)

[pg_rider]

My wife and I have been bitten hard by the hot tub bug. I've been researching nonstop for a week now and thought I'd narrowed down my search to either the Sundance Optima or Cameo. Reasons are many, but in short I like the reputation, warranty, and "look". Now... just wet-tested the Optima last night and while the wife loved it I had my doubts about the comfort. I think I'm going to be a lounge kind of guy so I'm anxious to try the Cameo. We'll see....

Anyway, on to my question. An acquaintance works at an Arctic dealer here in Colorado Springs. Wasn't really considering them til I read a bit on this forum. I kinda like their idea of insulating, but the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

Really appreciate any input/advice. Looking to buy in the next couple weeks so I'd like to narrow down my choices if possible!

[pg_rider]

Actually, I enjoyed reading the articles on your site! The diverter valve one was particularly interesting -- I agree that it seems like a compromise in the design of the plumbing. Because of that, I'm interested in hearing which companies use dedicated pumps without diverters.

Also, any data (real or anecdotal) on pipe movement in tubs without full-foam?

[Autoplay]

Actually, I enjoyed reading the articles on your site! The diverter valve one was particularly interesting -- I agree that it seems like a compromise in the design of the plumbing. Because of that, I'm interested in hearing which companies use dedicated pumps without diverters.

Also, any data (real or anecdotal) on pipe movement in tubs without full-foam?

I'm sure Conjuna will be around shortly,to tell you the many benefits of un-supported pipes/plumbing.

P.S. ... Buying things site unseen/tested off of the internet is best!

[Guzz]

Pg rider, Do not listen to anything Jim says, he has a split personality right now.

[Autoplay]

Pg rider, Do not listen to anything Jim says, he has a split personality right now.

Right now ?? LOL He has had a split personality for as long as I've known him....and it isn't 5 years like he suggested. I purchased my spa in april-may of 03. Do the math Conjuna.

[pg_rider]

Jim, got a link?

Guzz, I think you're right based on the reading I've done today!

[spa Dr.]

Actually, I enjoyed reading the articles on your site! The diverter valve one was particularly interesting -- I agree that it seems like a compromise in the design of the plumbing. Because of that, I'm interested in hearing which companies use dedicated pumps without diverters.

Also, any data (real or anecdotal) on pipe movement in tubs without full-foam?

Most D-1 spas operate with only 1 diverter , for the foot jet.

Its been my experience that a full foam tub is less likely to leak bc the plumbing is supported

However a non ff tub is a liittle easier to repair leaks in.

[Chas]

Anyway, the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

I have sold both types of tubs, and worked on many other brands along the way. Yes, in my experience, the pipes move a lot when the pumps are turned on and off. This is very true in a spa which uses one of the jet pumps (usually on low speed) to do the filtering and heating cycles - that system will go on and off twice a day, or perhaps many times as needed even if you are not using the tub that day.

As to the diverters: they add a level of variety. You may have a seat with fourteen jets in it, but you would like to focus on the top seven or whatever. The whole system is engineered to work with the diverter if the tub has one, and IF the tub in question has real engineering people behind it.

As to running all jets at the same time, you usually don't. It seems like a big deal in the showroom, but I have found our customers love to do sort of a 'circuit therapy' thing where they will start with neck jets, and move around the spa as they focus the massage on the upper back, then mid back, lower back and finally lower extremities.

Not every back is the same, and you don't always want the same massage every time. So the variety diverters offer is generally a good thing. Further, if you have a seat with a dedicated pump, and you don't happen to want it all or nothing, then you have a rather expensive piece of equipment sitting idle.

So do your shopping wet - and don't worry too much about the man behind the curtain....

[Hot H2o]

My wife and I have been bitten hard by the hot tub bug. I've been researching nonstop for a week now and thought I'd narrowed down my search to either the Sundance Optima or Cameo. Reasons are many, but in short I like the reputation, warranty, and "look". Now... just wet-tested the Optima last night and while the wife loved it I had my doubts about the comfort. I think I'm going to be a lounge kind of guy so I'm anxious to try the Cameo. We'll see....

Anyway, on to my question. An acquaintance works at an Arctic dealer here in Colorado Springs. Wasn't really considering them til I read a bit on this forum. I kinda like their idea of insulating, but the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

Really appreciate any input/advice. Looking to buy in the next couple weeks so I'd like to narrow down my choices if possible!

I agree with the Spa Dr. Full foam is the way to go and also Dimension One. You can't go wrong on the quality. It has better power and energy efficiency than the others you're looking at.

[wesj53]

My wife and I have been bitten hard by the hot tub bug. I've been researching nonstop for a week now and thought I'd narrowed down my search to either the Sundance Optima or Cameo. Reasons are many, but in short I like the reputation, warranty, and "look". Now... just wet-tested the Optima last night and while the wife loved it I had my doubts about the comfort. I think I'm going to be a lounge kind of guy so I'm anxious to try the Cameo. We'll see....

Anyway, on to my question. An acquaintance works at an Arctic dealer here in Colorado Springs. Wasn't really considering them til I read a bit on this forum. I kinda like their idea of insulating, but the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

Really appreciate any input/advice. Looking to buy in the next couple weeks so I'd like to narrow down my choices if possible!

I see you're a Newbie pg rider. I've only been on this site about a week or so in order to educate myself as a prospective buyer as well. First, you gotta understand a few things. Most of this site is dominated by spa techs, dealers, or guys that have too much time on their hands and just like to spout off on spas (of all subjects). Secondly, there is a running feud between Jim the Jim (the original) and his opposition (you'll catch on quickly as to who they are). Ignore most of that crap; it's hardly educational. Thirdly (if you haven't already figured it out), Jim the Jim's first response to you was not the real Jim the Jim; rather an imposter who's screwing with the real Jim the Jim (thus the bogus reply to you). Just look at their membership level and # of posts and you will recognize who the real Jim the Jim is. I think he's been on this site longer than my first child has been alive (she's 17).

Now to your question. As a fellow consumer and spa outsider (I have no vested interest and no biases), the ONLY unit without divertors and separate controls that I have seen is the Artesian Platinum series of which Piper Glen is one of their models. Go to their website and look at the 4 models they offer. Actually, the Piper Glen is one of our final 4 choices along with the Barefoot 88MR (with a unique lounger that runs towards the middle of the spa), the Vita Rendevous, and the Arctic Tundra. We like a lot of jets and features and all those models have them, including seating for at least 6. We have wet tested the Artesian and Barefoot and really like the Piper Glen. Individual pump controls for each seat, center footwell with volcano, and seating for 6-7. It's very nice! The Dove Canyon is Artesian's lounge model which you may like better (actually so do I but my wife and kids are too short for the lounger and float a bit). Check them out; I don't think you'll be disappointed. I also checked out Artesian on BBB and they have no complaints in the last 3 years against them. They've been around for many years and although one of the smaller players, they seem to have a pretty reputation in the marketplace. I haven't heard too many of the guys on this site slam them either (which is amazing considering the critical nature of some of them).

Re: Sundance. We wet tested the Optima also and liked it but like some of the other "big" names in the business, we felt that for $9500 we got more jets and features elsewhere (Piper Glen is $10k) Plus, it really has only 5 active seats; we want 6 for entertaining. Plus, I don't think their jets are any better than any of the others we have tested. But they do have a good reputation and the dealer network is strong, including here in metro Chicago.

Re: Arctic. I can't comment since I haven't seen them yet. But come Sunday, I will be wet testing and also looking "under the hood" to check out their foaming technique. If they don't hold the hoses in place with foam, I may decide against them as well for your same reasons. You are thinking the same way I am.

Re: Haven and Jim the Jim. I don't know much about the man or his company so I can't and won't comment on the subects. I've read some things on his site and at first I thought I he was an independent reviewer only to learn that he sells his own brand. But without any distribution, it's hard to believe anyone buys units from him site unseen (especially at his prices which aren't cheap). Plus, there are pictures where his shells are made and putting it mildly, it's not exactly a modern mfg plant where I want my spa shell produced! To be fair to Jim, however, he seems to know what he's talking about and I agree with some of his thoughts. It's too bad that he and his opponents can't keep their personal disagreements under control. Sometimes their pettiness and lack of decorum gets pretty raw.

Bottom line: find a spa that fits you; has the features you want, has a good dealer, and is a reputable mfg. Check out BBB and look them up, remembering that the bigger the company (like Cal Spa and Hot Springs), the more complaints they may have. More importantly to look at is how they handle the complaints and how quickly they resolve problems. I have ruled out Hydro Spas and a few others because of unsatisfactory ratings. Good luck.

[Jim_The_Jim]

My wife and I have been bitten hard by the hot tub bug. I've been researching nonstop for a week now and thought I'd narrowed down my search to either the Sundance Optima or Cameo. Reasons are many, but in short I like the reputation, warranty, and "look". Now... just wet-tested the Optima last night and while the wife loved it I had my doubts about the comfort. I think I'm going to be a lounge kind of guy so I'm anxious to try the Cameo. We'll see....

Anyway, on to my question. An acquaintance works at an Arctic dealer here in Colorado Springs. Wasn't really considering them til I read a bit on this forum. I kinda like their idea of insulating, but the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

Really appreciate any input/advice. Looking to buy in the next couple weeks so I'd like to narrow down my choices if possible!

We use foam on all of the tubing, but it is a special foam that does not hold water. It makes the Haven Spas much quieter than most all other spas.

I am insulted by your post, since we are the most ethcal of spa companies and we offer much higher level of spas for a heck of a lot less money.

And we are the only company using American made pumps and motors in American made spas.

[Dr. Spa]

Just look at their membership level and # of posts and you will recognize who the real Jim the Jim is. I think he's been on this site longer than my first child has been alive (she's 17).

That would mean I've been since before Grama was born (member #5).............. Seriously though, although this website has been around for a while, they abandoned most of their last board and this board has only been here a few weeks......... but it's fillin up fast don't you think?

[Jim_The_Jim]

That would mean I've been since before Grama was born (member #5).............. Seriously though, although this website has been around for a while, they abandoned most of their last board and this board has only been here a few weeks......... but it's fillin up fast don't you think?

I have five witnesses across the country now. Doc, you want to be on the witness list?

[Stevie]

I am insulted by your post, since we are the most ethcal of spa companies and we offer much higher level of spas for a heck of a lot less money.

INSULTED? Have you read all of the posts after yours in EVERY thread? You should be getting use to it by now! (It’s no wonder you don’t know how to spell “ethical”. It’s not in your vocabulary!

Though Jim would like you to believe that if he wrote it, it must be true, the reality is that he is VERY new into the world of spas and comes here to learn from us. Though he will say that he is an "electrical engineer" or some other type of "engineer" depending on his mood and what week it is, the fact remains that he is just a newbie trying to be perceived as someone who knows. It only takes a few thousand lies on some message forums to sell a spa and as we all know, he's got the time to do it!

Why, you ask does he hide behind his computer screen to sell spas? Because the man has no ethics and wouldn't last a day in the real world of retail sales. He's internet slime and predator of the weak.

This multiple JIM THE JIM thing is freaking HILARIOUS!

[Autoplay]

INSULTED? Have you read all of the posts after yours in EVERY thread? You should be getting use to it by now! (It’s no wonder you don’t know how to spell “ethical”. It’s not in your vocabulary!

Though Jim would like you to believe that if he wrote it, it must be true, the reality is that he is VERY new into the world of spas and comes here to learn from us. Though he will say that he is an "electrical engineer" or some other type of "engineer" depending on his mood and what week it is, the fact remains that he is just a newbie trying to be perceived as someone who knows. It only takes a few thousand lies on some message forums to sell a spa and as we all know, he's got the time to do it!

Why, you ask does he hide behind his computer screen to sell spas? Because the man has no ethics and wouldn't last a day in the real world of retail sales. He's internet slime and predator of the weak.

This multiple JIM THE JIM thing is freaking HILARIOUS!

I concur Stevie the Stevie

Guess his parents never taught him,what goes around comes around.

Conjuna,what do you think of my spa,after 3 years of trouble-free satisfaction. As you're aware,it's a 2003 Caldera Geneva Utopia. You think it will last another 6 months before it totally falls apart? Shirley you must know the lifespan of said spa,as you're the self-professed SPA-LORD

[Jim_The_Jim]

I concur Stevie the Stevie

Guess his parents never taught him,what goes around comes around.

Conjuna,what do you think of my spa,after 3 years of trouble-free satisfaction. As you're aware,it's a 2003 Caldera Geneva Utopia. You think it will last another 6 months before it totally falls apart? Shirley you must know the lifespan of said spa,as you're the self-professed SPA-LORD

I never said it would fall apart. Actually they last longer than Hot Spring. I said you got ripped off and paid way too much for a spa that has 39 friggin bullet jets. and a couple of tiny pumps in this day and age.

And how many diverter valves?

And ever since then you have been on the warpath, like a manic depressive fool.

[Stevie]

I have five witnesses across the country now. Doc, you want to be on the witness list?

Witnesses? To what? What did ya witness Doc? Did I see it? I wanna be one too!

Did he mean CUSTOMERS?

NICE application Autoplay! I've seen those before but I forgot how beautiful it was! Lots of full size therapy jets in that puppy! Isn't jelousy an ugly thing? I bet Jim's got a Thermospa nestled out there in the farmers field at Phoenix that he uses!

[Jim_The_Jim]

INSULTED? Have you read all of the posts after yours in EVERY thread? You should be getting use to it by now! (It’s no wonder you don’t know how to spell “ethical”. It’s not in your vocabulary!

Though Jim would like you to believe that if he wrote it, it must be true, the reality is that he is VERY new into the world of spas and comes here to learn from us. Though he will say that he is an "electrical engineer" or some other type of "engineer" depending on his mood and what week it is, the fact remains that he is just a newbie trying to be perceived as someone who knows. It only takes a few thousand lies on some message forums to sell a spa and as we all know, he's got the time to do it!

Why, you ask does he hide behind his computer screen to sell spas? Because the man has no ethics and wouldn't last a day in the real world of retail sales. He's internet slime and predator of the weak.

This multiple JIM THE JIM thing is freaking HILARIOUS!

And if any of them are you, we do have space in the federal pens here in the states for you.

http://www.havenspas.com/cgi-bin/forum2/Fu...fig.pl?read=340

[Chas]

And ever since then you have been on the warpath, like a manic depressive fool.

Yeah, but his new pool deck sure looks great!

[Jim_The_Jim]

3 years of trouble-free satisfaction.

Oh! Yea. right? Do you think I would forget the warranty service you got on your tub? You published it on the forum remember?

"trouble-free".

I have heard that so many times it is funny. I always like it when I go out to a spa to do a repair and the customer says: "We have never had any problems."

When I open it up, there are all sorts of parts that have been changed and it often times looks like it has been worked on at least 7 times. This is typical of people who are emotionally attached to inanimate objects. They seem to for get the warranty repairs, and tell others the spa was "trouble free" becasue of the love they feel for their tubs.

Nice pool deck. Good work!

[Autoplay]

I never said it would fall apart. Actually they last longer than Hot Spring. I said you got ripped off and paid way too much for a spa that has 39 friggin bullet jets. and a couple of tiny pumps in this day and age.

And how many diverter valves?

And ever since then you have been on the warpath, like a manic depressive fool.

Not really the warpath,just insuring others know the REAL you. You are your own worst enemy Conjuna.

You toss sticks and stones etc....but it will never effect me personally,nor how my spa performs/malfunctions. You seem to be the ONLY person on the spa boards(the limited few you haven't been banned from) that ganishes a dislike from others. Shirley you're aware of that. Is that your model business approach? Slam almost everybody/anything. Makes perfect business sense to me LOL.

I musta missed the negativity aspect,as far as managing a business. Seems to be working limited for you,more power to ya/grin.

BTW,I play the Harmonica while tile/stone setting. You think people are impressed by my personal habits while at work/at home/on vacation etc etc etc? Oh,and I read the bible to other fellow construction workers at lunch hour. They praise my name and look upon me as a construction savior! Oh,and when I was working on my L88 motor,I could hear Roger calling my name(in my head naturally)and trying to bribe me with a trade of a 70 buick gsx or was it a "67 CYCLONE"? I forget/grin.

And off topic,which I ALWAYS do,I sold a 70 Cuda bout 3 years ago for what I paid for it. What a freakin loser I am Bimbo. You know me like no other person ever could.

[Autoplay]

3 years of trouble-free satisfaction.

Oh! Yea. right? Do you think I would forget the warranty service you got on your tub? You published it on the forum remember?

"trouble-free".

I have heard that so many times it is funny. I always like it when I go out to a spa to do a repair and the customer says: "We have never had any problems."

When I open it up, there are all sorts of parts that have been changed and it often times looks like it has been worked on at least 7 times. This is typical of people who are emotionally attached to inanimate objects. They seem to for get the warranty repairs, and tell others the spa was "trouble free" becasue of the love they feel for their tubs.

Nice pool deck. Good work!

Correct you are Jim. I had 2 issues....a heatsink and a cosmetic rubber button,was within the 1st year of ownership. I personally made a few phone calls,and the warranty covered it. Was trub free for me as all I had to do was lift the phone,and set-up appointment.

Why would you compliment me and my work? As most know you're insincere,and a BS artist....why would you waste the bandwidth tellin me that? Do you expect me to really believe that your sincere? I believe little/nothing of what you say Conjuna,and I seriously doubt you will ever gain any form of respect from me,in yours or my lifetime.

You and only you Jim,have brought this upon yourself. Must be part of your master business plan...all the negative publicity I.E. Calspas Suing ya,the multiple complaints on various sites about you,Banks collecting/suing you..etc etc.

Here's food for thought.....I see someone in a grocery store,I walk up to them as their putting a case of Miller beer in their cart and say "you're an idiot for purchasing Miller Beer" and then proceed to tell em how great CaVeNslaugher is. BBL....gotta try that approach

[pzeeker]

My wife and I have been bitten hard by the hot tub bug. I've been researching nonstop for a week now and thought I'd narrowed down my search to either the Sundance Optima or Cameo. Reasons are many, but in short I like the reputation, warranty, and "look". Now... just wet-tested the Optima last night and while the wife loved it I had my doubts about the comfort. I think I'm going to be a lounge kind of guy so I'm anxious to try the Cameo. We'll see....

Anyway, on to my question. An acquaintance works at an Arctic dealer here in Colorado Springs. Wasn't really considering them til I read a bit on this forum. I kinda like their idea of insulating, but the one negative I see is that without the full-foam to support the pipes are they much more prone to shaking and therefore eventually leaking?

My other question is this: after playing with the diverter valves on the Sundance Optima I'm not real thrilled with the entire setup. Reading the diatribe against diverters on the Haven Spas website didn't help either. Are there other reputable, high-end companies that make quality tubs with dedicated pumps for each seat?

Really appreciate any input/advice. Looking to buy in the next couple weeks so I'd like to narrow down my choices if possible!

check out the artesian platinum series. I wet tested one and was very impressed but my budget was in the island series. I purchased the grand bahama (which has diverters) and I am very satisfied with the performance and the flexibility of all the seats. Plenty of power and comfort. good luck with whatever you choose.

[Chas]

Oh,and when I was working on my L88 motor,I could hear Roger calling my name(in my head naturally)and trying to bribe me with a trade of a 70 buick gsx or was it a "67 CYCLONE"? I forget/grin.

HEY! I had a 70 Buick Gran Sport. 13 second car! 455 'Stage One' engine, rated at 440 HP right outa the box! Actually, the car was a 67 GS, but the motor was a 70. The first motor (a 340) is most likely still scattered amongst the weed at Freemont raceway. I ran against Chevelles all the time - the small blocks I could easily smoke, but a 396 would make me have to really pay attention to win but not break out.

Ah youth.

Mine was white with a black vinyl top, but here's a nice red one.

[pg_rider]

Thanks for all the replies, both public and private. As for the diverter issue, I'm not really concerned with if a tub with diverters has enough power -- I prefer a low-power massage regardless. It's really an issue of long-term reliability. Just today I wet-tested some Vitas; one of them had a broken diverter handle and another one had water leaking from the bottom of the diverter handle. I hate that kind of thing.... not to mention the toll it takes on the plumbing under the skin...

Anyway, definitely going to try the Artesian next week. Very curious to see the difference. I have to admit, I hate having to figure out which diverter controls which seat, so to have a pump dedicated to each seat would be sweeeeeeeet.... What's a "good" price for an Artesia Platinum? And speaking of, is ~$11,200 a good price for a Vita Rendezvous if it includes a cover, steps, chemicals, and your choice of a pool table or HDTV? Seems kinda high... I could just buy my dream tub (a Maxxus) and be done for that price...