Bleach

[turbottt1]

Just wondering if this is normal. We have used sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, dihydrate in our pool for two years. We are in the process of swithing our spa over to bleach and felt we would like to try it on the pool too. Our levels[ clor, ph, alky] are spot on, but I notice the water seems a little peakess. It just doesn't have that sparkle. Should I be concerned or is there a trick to using bleach. For the record it's straight clorex unscented and we have been using it for a week now.Thanks for all info. steve

[hottubdan]

Why???

[Dr. Spa]

Because to the average consummer is appears inexpensive. But, it's only 1/2 the strength of liquid pool chlorine and can lose half it's strength in 30 days after being manufactured (how long has it been sitting on a store shelf, or in a warehouse?). It also has a pH of 13, and every gallon adds 2 pounds of salt to the water, quickly raising TDS levels. But it's cheap.

[turbottt1]

You asked why???? I have trouble with the spa and skin sensitivty.[ Bromine] We use a product that we found out continues to put sodium bromide in to the water and I just can't take it.[ nasty chem. burn] We are going to try simple refilling the tub and adding the proper amount of sodium bromide at the beginning and just use bleach to maint. and shock the spa. Instead of 50 different product each with their own use in either the spa or the pool, we simple are going to try going to the b.b.b. system. It certainly is not about the money, it's to make life simple for my wife when I have extended stays away from home. Also I have got to work out this skin problem. steve

[waterbear]

Because to the average consummer is appears inexpensive. But, it's only 1/2 the strength of liquid pool chlorine and can lose half it's strength in 30 days after being manufactured (how long has it been sitting on a store shelf, or in a warehouse?). It also has a pH of 13, and every gallon adds 2 pounds of salt to the water, quickly raising TDS levels. But it's cheap.

BOGUS INFO....sodium hypochlorite is sodium hypochlorite....Lower concentrations will retain their strength longer (such as 6% ) than higher (12.5%) . 12.5% liquid chlorine will be about 8% within a few weeks. 6% will stay stable for months! ALL sodium hypochlorite will add sodium ions to the water and when the hypochorous acid loses it's oxygen it leaves a chloride ion. This will raise TDS but it is BOGUS MEASURMENT! ALL sodiuim hyposchorite has a high pH but the actual pH increase in a pool chlorinated by liquid chlorine is small and easily controlled by a bit of acid. Many users of sodium hypochorite report stable pH!

For an interesting discussion of how much salt bleach adds to a pool you might want to check this out

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.ph...32073#post32073

Just wondering if this is normal. We have used sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, dihydrate in our pool for two years. We are in the process of swithing our spa over to bleach and felt we would like to try it on the pool too. Our levels[ clor, ph, alky] are spot on, but I notice the water seems a little peakess. It just doesn't have that sparkle. Should I be concerned or is there a trick to using bleach. For the record it's straight clorex unscented and we have been using it for a week now.Thanks for all info. steve

If you could post your test results from a drop based kit and not test strips it would be helpful. If you have been using dichlor for 2 years I would be interested in knowing what your CYA reading is. Also, what free chlorine level are you maintaning in the pool?

[turbottt1]

Ok please inform me as to cya? I hope it's in the same file as tds!!!!! I checked and our cya are aprox. 70 - 80. I know dump the water right. When I stated what we have used in our pool for two yrs. Your first question was what is your cya measurement????? Fill us in on what the chlor. we used and cya have in common. The chlor. we were using ain't the cheap junk, but just the oppisite. Why would it have a effect on this measurement. Not to sound impolite but I'll fill the pool in with dirt before I dump anymore water and have more trucked in this year. Were already up to 25,000 gals. and enough is enough. Sorry about that , but I do feel better now. Please for all to benf.. explain. thank you. steve

[waterbear]

Ok please inform me as to cya? I hope it's in the same file as tds!!!!! I checked and our cya are aprox. 70 - 80. I know dump the water right. When I stated what we have used in our pool for two yrs. Your first question was what is your cya measurement????? Fill us in on what the chlor. we used and cya have in common. The chlor. we were using ain't the cheap junk, but just the oppisite. Why would it have a effect on this measurement. Not to sound impolite but I'll fill the pool in with dirt before I dump anymore water and have more trucked in this year. Were already up to 25,000 gals. and enough is enough. Sorry about that , but I do feel better now. Please for all to benf.. explain. thank you. steve

CYA (cyanuric acid, stabilizer) is necessary in an outdoor chlorine pool. It keeps the sun from burning off all the free chlorine in a matter of minutes. However, if the level is too high the pool becomes overstabilized and the water is not properly santized and algae blooms become commen. Both trichlor and dichlor are stabilized chlorine. This means that every time you add chlorine you are adding CYA. This will work fine for a while (expecially with a sand filter that you backwash so you are always diluting the pool water) but you will eventially reach a point where the CYA is too high and you need to drain and refill. The recommeded level for cya in a manually chlorinated pool is 30-50 ppm. A pool with a salt water generator requires a higher level (60-80 ppm) because of the way the clorine is created in the cell. In Florida (and many other states) a commercial pool with a CYA level over 100 ppm will be closed!

A CYA level of 70-80 ppm is livable if you STOP using dichlor or trichor and switch to non stabilized chlorine (sodium hypochorite....liquid chlorine or bleach, calcium hypochlorite....cal hypo, but this can cause your calcium hardness to rise so you need to keep an eye on it, or lithium hypochlorite....very expen$ive to use!

With the CYA at 70-80 ppm you need to maintain a free chlorine level of 5-10 ppm for normal chlorination (I would not go below 6 ppm!) and you need to shock to 20 ppm or higher to properly shock the pool and reach breakpoint! This will insure that there is enough Free chlorine to do it's job and it is not all combined with the CYA to form chloroisocyanurates (which do test as free chlorine but do not have the sanitizing or oxidizing power). The plus side is that you will find that you do not have to add chlorine as often to maintain these levels since the chloroisocyanurates act as a reserve of chorine in the water. IF you use bleach you might find that you only have to dose it once or twice a week to maintain these chlorine levels. IF you are going to run a high CYA pool I would strongly suggest investing in an FAS-DPD test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 so you can accurately measure the higher chlorine levels (as well as your other water parameters). A DPD testkit will beach out at chlorine levels above 10 ppm and OTO just measures total chlorine....it's good for a quick daily check but not much else.

The good news is many people do successfully run pools with high CYA levels by following the recommendations that I just gave you. (And save a lot of money compared to what they were spending on dichlor and trichor!) PM me for more info.

[turbottt1]

Well we figured out what was causing the water to be a little off. As we were in line yesterday with our 15 gals. of bleach the lady at the checkout said. Having a problem with algae in the pool are we. I just smiled. She said she had bought hers this morning. We had been keeping our chlor. level at aprox. 3 ppm. Now that I understand what cya are Well you might say game over. Were on top of this and will fight the fight till we clear the pool up. Just for the record we have ordered a real test kit from taylor and not one of these cheap ones that ever pool store in our area says you need. steve

chlor: very high, no way to test [1 gal. bleach = aprox. 2ppm] I put us at 22-24ppm

ph: 7.5/7.6

alky: 150ppm

cya: 70-80

[waterbear]

Well we figured out what was causing the water to be a little off. As we were in line yesterday with our 15 gals. of bleach the lady at the checkout said. Having a problem with algae in the pool are we. I just smiled. She said she had bought hers this morning. We had been keeping our chlor. level at aprox. 3 ppm. Now that I understand what cya are Well you might say game over. Were on top of this and will fight the fight till we clear the pool up. Just for the record we have ordered a real test kit from taylor and not one of these cheap ones that ever pool store in our area says you need. steve

chlor: very high, no way to test [1 gal. bleach = aprox. 2ppm] I put us at 22-24ppm

ph: 7.5/7.6

alky: 150ppm

cya: 70-80

I hope you got the K-2006 kit and NOT the K-2005! Send me a PM and I will give you some info that you will find very useful!

[11tone]

Just wondering if this is normal. We have used sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, dihydrate in our pool for two years. We are in the process of swithing our spa over to bleach and felt we would like to try it on the pool too. Our levels[ clor, ph, alky] are spot on, but I notice the water seems a little peakess. It just doesn't have that sparkle. Should I be concerned or is there a trick to using bleach. For the record it's straight clorex unscented and we have been using it for a week now.Thanks for all info. steve

Please understand it is very easy for people to give you a tone of reasons for certain things they do or what they believe. The problem is what's true water chemistry in your pool is not hard if done right with understanding. They way you where treating your pool is the proper, There is a difference between sanitizer and shock dichlor or trichlor are made to stay in the water with the proper CA level and sanitize the water shocks are hyperchlorides like Lithium, Sodium, Calcium. Sodium and Calcium leave biproduct behind that will eventualy lock the pool up and cause other issues with the pool. Hyper chlorides are made to burn out what the tri or di kill which turn into chloramines that give off the oder that people smell in hotels or public pools. To keep any effective level you would have to add the bleach everyday because if you dumped it in all at once it would still burn off in 2 to 3 days and leave alot of biproduct in the pool that was not made for a swimming pool treatment. If your going to do this it is better to use a higher grade Liq Chlor from a pool store that has less biproducts involved. But this is still not the way to go you will never have a true clear balanced pool following this way of treatment. There is a right way and a cheap way and the end result will show the choice.

[waterbear]

Please understand it is very easy for people to give you a tone

Tone? Do you mean ton?

of reasons for certain things they do or what they believe. The problem is what's true water chemistry in your pool is not hard if done right with understanding. They way you where treating your pool is the proper, There is a difference between sanitizer and shock

Shock is a verb, not a noun. It is the process of raising the free chlorine level high enough to reach breakpoint. You are correct that non stablized chlorine should be used as a shock since the use of stabilized chlorine will cause the cyanuric acid levels to rise too quickly. when used at shock levels.

dichlor or trichlor are made to stay in the water with the proper CA level and sanitize the water shocks are hyperchlorides

I believe you mean hypochlorites

like Lithium, Sodium, Calcium. Sodium and Calcium leave biproduct behind that will eventualy lock the pool up

This is not accurate. The use of cal hypo will cause calcium levels to rise but this is not alway a bad thing if more calcium is needed. Sodium and lithium ions in the water will have minimal impact on the water chemisty. The only thing that will 'lock the pool up" is an excess of cyanuric acid from constant use of stabilized chlorine products (dichlor and trichlor). Most state health departments will close a commercial pool at cyanuric acid levels of 100 ppm or less yet residential pools that run exclusively on stabilized chlorine products often have cyanuric acid levels of well over 100 ppm and the asscociated problems of recurring algae blooms and cloudy water. If you want to try to throw the blame on high TDS for these problems just look at any pool with a salt water chlorine generator. The TDS in such a pool is going to be very high (since the TDS is going to be the ppm salt in the pool in addition to any other ionic substances) yet these pools do not exhibit any of the problems that high TDS have been blamed for. However, every prolem that high TDS has been blamed for ARE evident in pools that are overstabilized!

and cause other issues with the pool. Hyper chlorides

Once again I believe you mean hyopchlorites

are made to burn out what the tri or di kill which turn into chloramines that give off the oder that people smell in hotels or public pools. To keep any effective level you would have to add the bleach everyday because if you dumped it in all at once it would still burn off in 2 to 3 days and leave alot of biproduct in the pool that was not made for a swimming pool treatment.

This is misinformation. While it is true that unstablized chlorine would burn off in the sun in a matter of minutes a pool with a correct level (30-50 ppm) of cyanuric acid would not. Liquid chlorine does need to be dosed often enough to maintain the correct free chlorine residual and the advantage to this is that you are not constantly adding more cyanuric acid to the water like you do with trichlor and dichlor and do not have to worry about 'overstabilzation'. This is why liquid chlorine is ofthen the first choice for commercial pools (and the most commen on pools with ORP controllers).

If your going to do this it is better to use a higher grade Liq Chlor from a pool store that has less biproducts involved.

This is also false info. Sodium hypochlorite is sodium hypochlrite. Pool stores sell it in 12.5%, 10% and 6% concentrations. Liquid bleach is 5.25% for regular and 6% for ultra (exactly the same as the pool store 6%. As far as pool stores selling purer products lets take a look at 'total alkalinity increaser' which is sodium bicarbonate (another name for exactly the same chemical is sodium hydrogen carbonate). This is also known as baking soda. The stuff sold in pool stores is usually of a commercial grade (not food and drug quality) and costs more than the baking soda sold at a grocery store pound for pound. The baking soda sold at a grocery story is USP grade which means it can be used for food and drug applications. It is interesting that Arm and Hammer (Church and Dwight company) who make the baking soda we are most familier with also market sodium bicarbonate as "Alkalinity First" for the pool/spa market and it costs more per pound for exactly the same chemical!

But this is still not the way to go you will never have a true clear balanced pool following this way of treatment. There is a right way and a cheap way and the end result will show the choice.

The right way is to maintain proper water balance, which can be done with any form of chlorine and assciated chemicals.

[11tone]

The right way is to maintain proper water balance, which can be done with any form of chlorine and assciated chemicals.

Wow ounce again someone with to much time on there hands. I don't feel the need to right a water chemistry master peice everytime I reply to something here. So I will make it quick which that is what most customers want. Yes Baking Soda can be used and I have saved money for alot of my customers this way for many years. But Bleach from a Walmart or Kmart is not the same grade as Liquid Chlorine that you get from most Pool Companys and I do not mean the low end crap pool chemicals from Walmart and so forth. If a customer is trained right they #1 Will not over chlorinate or start out with to much cyanuric acid in the water in new pools it is the builders that end up putting to much cyanuric acid in to start out with. Lock out is more common in area's where consumers do not close there pool so they do not drain some water in the winter. Salt Systems are not the end all that people think they require work just like any other system out there if you do not clean the core ounce it becomes calcified which is a chore the system is of no use to you and will fail....( TDS ) all I care about is the customer and helping them solve there problem which I have done for 24yrs hands on not just infront of a computor that I print out sheets for the customer. And I don't need to correct typo's and hold on to my big words just help the customer so that there problem get's resolved without taking advantage of them. Results speak louder than words.

[chem geek]

I agree with you that not all types of bleach are suitable for pools (or spas). Scented bleach has additives so should not be used for sanitation. However, Clorox unscented regular bleach is registered with the EPA for use in pools and is why you see the "% Available Chlorine" on the bottle (that number isn't needed for laundry uses). Other than it's lower strength (around 6% by weight, 5.7% available chlorine) it is exactly the same as chlorinating liquid (typically 12.5%, though sometimes 10%). I cannot comment on bleach from Walmart or Kmart, but if it is unscented, it is likely to be OK for pools, but I could be wrong about that -- it depends on what else is in such bleach (other than salt and a little extra sodium hydroxide).

[waterbear]

Results speak louder than words.

And correct information speaks louder than misinformation. You might not feel the need to 'right a water chemistry master piece' (sic) but it might be useful to at least write the correct terms and make some attempt to find a spelling that is close to the proper English so people can understand what you are talking about. You might have some valuable into to impart but your credibility is destroyed by using made up words or throwing out terms in the wrong context.

Also, your reference to TDS causing a salt cell to foul with calcium is not quite the case. First, ALL salt pools will have an extremely high TDS because of the amount of salt dissolved in the water and, second, it is a high calcium hardness combined with allowing the pH to rise by not montoring pH and keeping it in line that will cause the cell to foul. Yes, salt systems do require some maintenance on a regular basis to keep them running properly but isn't that also true of other pool equiemment such as filters, automatic cleaners, etc.? As far as pool store chlorine being better or purer than bleach.....The main objection to bleach is that it will raise TDS by adding salt. So will pool store chlorine. In fact the 6% pool store chlorine and the 6% ultra bleach are identical. When I refer to bleach I am referreing to plain, unscented laundry bleach without additives. It is intersting that now, with the rise in popularity of salt water systems that there is suddenly a variety of "pool salts" becoming available. (I am not referring to the propriatary mixes that also might contain stabilizer, borates, etc. being put out by at least 2 different companies now but the plain old soidum chloride type of salt). These 'Pool Salts' are usually close to twice the price of solar salt, have the same purity, and may have a smaller crystal size so they dissolve slightly faster. The impression beign given is that these are the only thing that should be used in a SWG because they are pure! ( Actually, water softener pellest are ususally the purest at 99.8% while the pool salts and solar salts are 99.5% pure.) I save my customers money by recommending using regular solar salt and I use the same in my pool, even thought we do stock "pool salt". This is also what the majority of SWG manufacturer's recommend, water softener or solar salt with a purity of at least 99.5%.. Once again chemical manufacturer's and pool stores are trying to give the impression that the speciality product is different from the one they can get just about anywhere. This is very similar to liquid chlorine vs. laundery bleach except that now we ARE dealing with exactly the same thing except for the price and where it is sold (or is that who is making the profits on the sale?)