Can't Seem To Get It Right....

[Miss Noel]

First let me say how happy I am to have found this forum!!!

Second, I realize already from reading here that I need a better testing system (will look into the Taylor K-2106).

What I am using: Aquacheck 7 way test strips for testing, and the GLB Rendezvous Bromine system for my relatively new Gulf Coast Spa LX 11000 (450 G).

I am going to give as much info as possible to try and get to the root of my issue.

When I fill up, I am using 2, 2oz Broma-Start pouches (sodium bromide), Protect Plus (the mineral element protector),Spa Increase (to raise PH), Alkalinity Up ( to raise alkalinity), Liquid Calcium Hardness Up (we have a water softener) ...

and Brominating Tablets to a floater:

= 1-bromo-3chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (60.0%)

= 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (27.4%)

= 1,3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin (10.6%)

= "Other Ingredients" (2.0%)

My levels look darn good when she starts up! I add brominating tablets to the filler every other day or so, shock once a week with 6oz. of "Activate" (potassium peroxymonosulfate), use 2oz. of the Protect Plus once a week, use 2oz. of Spa Clarifier (not exactly sure what's in it, but it says it clears cloudy water and improves filter efficiency) once a week, and use 1oz. Natural Clear (enzyme action scum remover) once a week. I also clean the filters once a month.

So after about 6-8 weeks, my levels start to go all wonky. I can't seem to every get my calcium up very high. The test strip generally reads "100 - low." My total Bromine reads "10 - ok." My free chlorine reads "20 - very high." PH is low; Color isn't even in the strip. Alkalinity is the same. I can't seem to get them up. Then Cyanuric Acid (whatever that is) reads "0 - low."

The other day after shocking (about an hour or so), we got into the tub and when the jets started a really heavy chemical odor came up and stung our eyes. We had to get out. Our skin was itchy and splotchy for a day.

I was so frustrated, I went out to the closest place ... Wal-Mart ... ~cringes~ and bought a Ph/Chlorine/Bromine water test kit. The PH was super low (light yellow) and the Bromine was RED when all the little windows are shades of yellow! That can't be good, right???

Now, we've only had the tub about 6 months. When we first got it we used an enzyme system, but it didn't work well and the water was gross. So after about 2 months, we drained it, cleaned it, and started a bromine system. About 2 months in we started having balancing issues. I just drained it, cleaned it again, and restarted, switching bromine systems in the hope I would find something that worked. I follow all of the directions. I try to keep the levels right.

What do you do if you have too much bromine? How do you know how many bromine tablets to use (cause the bottles never say!)? What in the heck is "free chlorine" and why is mine so high? Is it dangerous? Is this the chemical odor we have? Is it ok if I treat my spa with multiple chemicals a day or do I need to spread them out? I am panicking here... Our tub is new, and like all tubs, was expensive. I am afraid I am doing something wrong and am going to ruin it.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!!!!

~ Noel

[Miss Noel]

Crud... Ok so after writing this post I went out to look at the tub. I opened the top and had to back away sputtering and caughing the fumes were so bad. I turned on the light (it's night) and the water is yellow.....

[Miss Noel]

Any help would be appreciated...

[Woodsy]

If you are running bromine, then you do not need to worry about free chlorine levels. Chlorine and Bromine are different sanitizers. Bromine is suggested in spas because it is not as temperature sensitive as chlorine. However cyanuric acid levels shouldn't be present unless you are using a chlorine product to oxidize the bromine and activate it. Also, with bromine you will only read total bromine. When bromine combines with organics(nitrogen and ammonia, sweat and swimmer waste) it is still an active sanitizer.

So, if you're bromine levels are high and you have a lot of sun exposure leave the cover off for a few days. The sun will pull the bromine out and lower your level. Usually if you are running a one part bromine system(floating tabs) only one two ounce package of sodium bromide should start you off ok. Until you know how much bromine your system runs through you need to test bromine daily and start the floater on the lowest setting.

The two part system would be adding a two ounce package and oxidizing(activating) the bromine with a MPS(potassium peroxymonosulfate) product to convert the sodium bromide to hydrobromius acid(killing form of bromine) to sanitize.

So if you are using bromine stop using chlorine as well. The chemicals do not mix and cause "off gassing" which is probably the smell you are getting.

I am sure some people on here can explain it a little better, but I hope this helps. Also if any information here is a little off I hope someone will step in and help us both.

[tony]

First let me say how happy I am to have found this forum!!!

Second, I realize already from reading here that I need a better testing system (will look into the Taylor K-2106).

What I am using: Aquacheck 7 way test strips for testing, and the GLB Rendezvous Bromine system for my relatively new Gulf Coast Spa LX 11000 (450 G).

I am going to give as much info as possible to try and get to the root of my issue.

When I fill up, I am using 2, 2oz Broma-Start pouches (sodium bromide), Protect Plus (the mineral element protector),Spa Increase (to raise PH), Alkalinity Up ( to raise alkalinity), Liquid Calcium Hardness Up (we have a water softener) ...

and Brominating Tablets to a floater:

= 1-bromo-3chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (60.0%)

= 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (27.4%)

= 1,3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin (10.6%)

= "Other Ingredients" (2.0%)

My levels look darn good when she starts up! I add brominating tablets to the filler every other day or so, shock once a week with 6oz. of "Activate" (potassium peroxymonosulfate), use 2oz. of the Protect Plus once a week, use 2oz. of Spa Clarifier (not exactly sure what's in it, but it says it clears cloudy water and improves filter efficiency) once a week, and use 1oz. Natural Clear (enzyme action scum remover) once a week. I also clean the filters once a month.

So after about 6-8 weeks, my levels start to go all wonky. I can't seem to every get my calcium up very high. The test strip generally reads "100 - low." My total Bromine reads "10 - ok." My free chlorine reads "20 - very high." PH is low; Color isn't even in the strip. Alkalinity is the same. I can't seem to get them up. Then Cyanuric Acid (whatever that is) reads "0 - low."

The other day after shocking (about an hour or so), we got into the tub and when the jets started a really heavy chemical odor came up and stung our eyes. We had to get out. Our skin was itchy and splotchy for a day.

I was so frustrated, I went out to the closest place ... Wal-Mart ... ~cringes~ and bought a Ph/Chlorine/Bromine water test kit. The PH was super low (light yellow) and the Bromine was RED when all the little windows are shades of yellow! That can't be good, right???

Now, we've only had the tub about 6 months. When we first got it we used an enzyme system, but it didn't work well and the water was gross. So after about 2 months, we drained it, cleaned it, and started a bromine system. About 2 months in we started having balancing issues. I just drained it, cleaned it again, and restarted, switching bromine systems in the hope I would find something that worked. I follow all of the directions. I try to keep the levels right.

What do you do if you have too much bromine? How do you know how many bromine tablets to use (cause the bottles never say!)? What in the heck is "free chlorine" and why is mine so high? Is it dangerous? Is this the chemical odor we have? Is it ok if I treat my spa with multiple chemicals a day or do I need to spread them out? I am panicking here... Our tub is new, and like all tubs, was expensive. I am afraid I am doing something wrong and am going to ruin it.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!!!!

~ Noel

I am not terribly experienced with bromine but a couple of things stand out here. First, with a very high level of bromine, just take the floater out until you get to a managable level. Next, you must get your pH and TA into the proper range. I am not familiar with the test kit you are using but you need something that will give you numbers. You need to get your pH in the 7.2-7.8 range preferably 7.4-7.6. You want your TA to be 80-120. With bromine you may want to be on the higher end of that range because the bromine tabs are going to naturally pull your pH down and the high TA will help keep it up. The values you should be concerned with are total bromine, pH and TA...Calcium hardness only at your new fill.

Your start with the sodium bromide to get a bromine bank is good. Protect Plus sounds like a stain and scale and is ok for weekly basis as is the natural clear enzyme (though this is purely optional). I would not use the clarifier unless you have hazy (not cloudy) water. Clarifiers, IMO, should not be needed for regular maintenance but can be used to help with water that just won't sparkle. Fill your floater weekly or as needed and keep it adjusted to give you a 3-5 ppm free bromine. Shock weekly or after heavy use with the Activate which is a buffered MPS. You should only need about four tablespoons of Activate per use. Six oz is way off the charts. Alk Up should bring both TA and pH up while pH UP should raise just pH. Test your water at least weekly and adjust accordingly before levels get too out of wack.

If your spa is six months old and you changed your water at two months, you are probably overdue for a water change, especially with all the products you are adding. With yellow water it may be prudent to drain and fill. Most spa owners change water between three and four months.

[Miss Noel]

Thank you both so much. I appreciate the feedback. I drained last night and am cleaning and polishing right now. I will fill this afternoon.

Woodsy, I am actually not adding chlorine. There is a part of my test strip that is called "free chlorine" that reads off the charts even though I am not adding any chlorine products.

Tony, I was adding so much of the Activate shock because the jug says to add 4oz. per 250 gal. I have a 450 gal. tub so I just used 6 oz. I will lower the amunt and see what happens. Thanks so much!

My bromine tablet floater doesn't have any release settings, and I was just tryong to keep it full. I guess I can play with filling it halfway and replacing a couple tablets every couple days and see what happenes.

I think I now what one of my issues is. I have been surfing the net on spa care and browsing these forums, and I think I was adding too many chems at the same time (which is a no-no I guess?). Plus, I was closing the lid right after shocking. It is so cold here that I was just running out, doing my maintenance as fast as possible, and running back in. I think I need to slow down and take more care with how I add chems and leave the lid off for a bit when I do.

[fdegree]

My bromine tablet floater doesn't have any release settings, and I was just tryong to keep it full. I guess I can play with filling it halfway and replacing a couple tablets every couple days and see what happenes.

I have used the floater found here http://www.hottubworks.com/cgi-bin/commerc...amp;key=MP1973E , with great success. It holds around 6 or 7 tablets, it has adjustable settings and it holds that setting very well.

Simply fill it with tablets and play with the settings until you reach the desired bromine level you want.

Back when our tub was new and we were in it nearly every day, a full load of tablets would last about 10 days with the floater set at about the #2 setting. Now, with a busier shedule and the novelty of the tub deminished, we don't use the tub nearly as frequently...so a full load of tablets will last over a month with it set below #1 - barely cracked open.

[tony]

Thank you both so much. I appreciate the feedback. I drained last night and am cleaning and polishing right now. I will fill this afternoon.

Woodsy, I am actually not adding chlorine. There is a part of my test strip that is called "free chlorine" that reads off the charts even though I am not adding any chlorine products.

Tony, I was adding so much of the Activate shock because the jug says to add 4oz. per 250 gal. I have a 450 gal. tub so I just used 6 oz. I will lower the amunt and see what happens. Thanks so much!

My bromine tablet floater doesn't have any release settings, and I was just tryong to keep it full. I guess I can play with filling it halfway and replacing a couple tablets every couple days and see what happenes.

I think I now what one of my issues is. I have been surfing the net on spa care and browsing these forums, and I think I was adding too many chems at the same time (which is a no-no I guess?). Plus, I was closing the lid right after shocking. It is so cold here that I was just running out, doing my maintenance as fast as possible, and running back in. I think I need to slow down and take more care with how I add chems and leave the lid off for a bit when I do.

When following the Enhance/Activate bromine program you add 4 0z Activate the first time and 2 oz thereafter. For a normal shock, use 2 oz per 250 gallons. If your bromine floater does not adjust, then you have to experiment to see how many tabs you need to maintian a certain bromine level. I see that Protect Plus is a combination of stain and scale and a clarifier, so definitiely stop using the separate clarifier. Many times it makes sense to start with fresh water. It will all come together...we all had to endure the learning curve.

[Miss Noel]

I have used the floater found here http://www.hottubworks.com/cgi-bin/commerc...amp;key=MP1973E , with great success. It holds around 6 or 7 tablets, it has adjustable settings and it holds that setting very well.

Simply fill it with tablets and play with the settings until you reach the desired bromine level you want.

Back when our tub was new and we were in it nearly every day, a full load of tablets would last about 10 days with the floater set at about the #2 setting. Now, with a busier shedule and the novelty of the tub deminished, we don't use the tub nearly as frequently...so a full load of tablets will last over a month with it set below #1 - barely cracked open.

Oh, I'll have to take a look at that floater. Not too happy with mine. Thanks for the link!

When following the Enhance/Activate bromine program you add 4 0z Activate the first time and 2 oz thereafter. For a normal shock, use 2 oz per 250 gallons. If your bromine floater does not adjust, then you have to experiment to see how many tabs you need to maintian a certain bromine level. I see that Protect Plus is a combination of stain and scale and a clarifier, so definitiely stop using the separate clarifier. Many times it makes sense to start with fresh water. It will all come together...we all had to endure the learning curve.

Ok, so 2oz is ok to shock with 1 time a week then? Do I still need to use a tablespoon of it after I am in it or does a once a week shock do the trick?

Thanks for the tip about the clarifier. I always wonder if ya truly need everything a line of products sells.

[waterbear]

You are using bromine tablets and MPS, both of which are acidic. This is what caused your pH and TA to drop. Also, you have discovered why test strips are not recommened for water balance. They just are not reliable. Your cheap little 2 way liquid based tester proved that to you. You will need to monitor pH and TA and most likely add baking soda to maintain your TA around 100 ppm. To raise your pH when the TA is in line (if the pH is too low) then turn on the spa jets and bubblers and run the spa until the pH rises I suspect that your pH dropped so low because you depleated the TA in your water.

As far as having too high a bromine level that is either because the floater is not adjusted properly or you are shocking too often.

And to the poster that told you to stop using chlorine since it does not mix well with bromine---RUBBISH! Your bromine tablets contain chlorine as one of their ingredents to oxidize the bromine ions into hypobromous acid. It really doesn't matter whether you use chlorine, MPS, or ozone to create the hypobromous acid from bromide ions. The trick is to add just enough to maintain the proper bromine levels and not let them go through the roof. When you shock your tub leave it uncovered for a few hours. That is always a good way to start.

Get yourself a good test kit and you will find that your water balancing will become very easy to do! For bromine get a Taylor K-2106.

[Whoneedsavacation]

Get a good bromine floater. I was running too high (and getting some skin irritation) with even the "deluxe" floater from Leisure Time. Someone on here pointed me at a type of floater with a locking ring that adjusts and stays adjusted and also has a weighted bottom so it doesn't tend to wind up in the filter basket.. You can fill it full of tablets and let it run until they are all gone. It's like this one:

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Floating-Brom...er-P609C43.aspx

[Miss Noel]

... You will need to monitor pH and TA and most likely add baking soda to maintain your TA around 100 ppm...

How much baking soda do you add at a time while trying to raise the TA? An ounce? A tablespoon?

... To raise your pH when the TA is in line (if the pH is too low) then turn on the spa jets and bubblers and run the spa until the pH rises...

Wow, didn't know runing the jets and bubbles could raise PH! Cool. Good to know, thanks!

... Get yourself a good test kit and you will find that your water balancing will become very easy to do! For bromine get a Taylor K-2106...

Already ordered.

Get a good bromine floater. I was running too high (and getting some skin irritation) with even the "deluxe" floater from Leisure Time. Someone on here pointed me at a type of floater with a locking ring that adjusts and stays adjusted and also has a weighted bottom so it doesn't tend to wind up in the filter basket.. You can fill it full of tablets and let it run until they are all gone.

Tanks for the tip!

[waterbear]

Get a good bromine floater. I was running too high (and getting some skin irritation) with even the "deluxe" floater from Leisure Time. Someone on here pointed me at a type of floater with a locking ring that adjusts and stays adjusted and also has a weighted bottom so it doesn't tend to wind up in the filter basket.. You can fill it full of tablets and let it run until they are all gone. It's like this one:

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Floating-Brom...er-P609C43.aspx

This is very similar, if not identical to the Pentair (Rainbow/Lifeguard) bromine floater that should be available in any good pool/spa supply. If they don't stock it they should be able to order you one. It really is the best bromine or 1" chlorine floater available!

[waterbear]

... You will need to monitor pH and TA and most likely add baking soda to maintain your TA around 100 ppm...

How much baking soda do you add at a time while trying to raise the TA? An ounce? A tablespoon?

... To raise your pH when the TA is in line (if the pH is too low) then turn on the spa jets and bubblers and run the spa until the pH rises...

Wow, didn't know runing the jets and bubbles could raise PH! Cool. Good to know, thanks!

... Get yourself a good test kit and you will find that your water balancing will become very easy to do! For bromine get a Taylor K-2106...

Already ordered.

Get a good bromine floater. I was running too high (and getting some skin irritation) with even the "deluxe" floater from Leisure Time. Someone on here pointed me at a type of floater with a locking ring that adjusts and stays adjusted and also has a weighted bottom so it doesn't tend to wind up in the filter basket.. You can fill it full of tablets and let it run until they are all gone.

Tanks for the tip!

As to how much baking soda to add to maintain your TA, your test kit will tell you that! TA 'carbonates' your water (much like club soda is carbonated). This carbonation is the buffer system we call TA. It is made up of carbonic acid--carbon dioxide dissolved in water--and carbonate and bicarbonate ions. When the TA is too low we raise it by adding baking soda. This adds more bicarbonate ions, some of which might convert to carbonate ions, depending on the pH.You want to keep your TA around 100 ppm since you are using bromine tabs which are acidic. If the TA is in line but the pH is too low aerate the water. This drives out carbon dioxide (like shaking up a bottle of soda to make it go flat). This lowers the amount of carbonic acid so the pH rises. If the TA is too high you want to drop the pH to about 7 and then aerate to raise it. Each time you do thsi you will lower the TA somewhat. Repeat until the TA is where you want it. A very high TA is often the result of the fill water used. If that is your case you will probably never need to add baking soda.

If the pH is too high you just add acid to lower it to the desired range.

TA will get 'consumed' over time so you will need to add a bit of baking soda from time to time unless your fill water has a natural high TA.

Your water testing results are what tell you what to add, when to add it, and how much to add! That is why a GOOD test kit is so important!

[Miss Noel]

No, no ~hah~ I think you misunderstood me. I know my test kit will tell me when the level is correct, I meant in what interval do you add uintil it is correct? Say I added an ounce at a time until it was right, well is that too much to add at a time? Is the baking soda really strong? Should I only add a tablespoon at a time until it is correct, instead?

But no worries. I guess I can figure it out through trial and error.

Thanks again.

[Whoneedsavacation]

No, no ~hah~ I think you misunderstood me. I know my test kit will tell me when the level is correct, I meant in what interval do you add uintil it is correct? Say I added an ounce at a time until it was right, well is that too much to add at a time? Is the baking soda really strong? Should I only add a tablespoon at a time until it is correct, instead?

Baking soda goes in more by the half cup than the teaspoon.... and I have a smallish spa. FWIW.

[tony]

No, no ~hah~ I think you misunderstood me. I know my test kit will tell me when the level is correct, I meant in what interval do you add uintil it is correct? Say I added an ounce at a time until it was right, well is that too much to add at a time? Is the baking soda really strong? Should I only add a tablespoon at a time until it is correct, instead?

But no worries. I guess I can figure it out through trial and error.

Thanks again.

In my spa I add a tablespoon at a time.

[Miss Noel]

**EDIT: Duplicate Post**

[Miss Noel]

Awesome, thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for.

I really appreciate all of the great feedback I've received here. I've been able to compile some great notes, and have purchased better equipment for my spa care.

Thanks everyone!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Awesome, thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for.

I really appreciate all of the great feedback I've received here. I've been able to compile some great notes, and have purchased better equipment for my spa care.

Thanks everyone!

I've so far avoided giving my $0.02 but I can't help but to chime in with my usual response to this type thread. There is one simple way to fix all this. Get rid of bromine and go to a simple chlorine system. I'm not a big fan of bromine and have helped many people with this type issue over the years and almost all are MUCH happier with using chlorine. Bromine will sanitize but I and others can't get over the "chemical soup" type feeling that bromine gives when compared to what you get with chlorine. IMO, chlorine is also MUCH easier to use and the water is much nicer to sit in so if your next attempt doesn't work out so well I'd advise a switch (and you can always PM me if you need help if you ever do go the chlorine route).

[waterbear]

Awesome, thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for.

I really appreciate all of the great feedback I've received here. I've been able to compile some great notes, and have purchased better equipment for my spa care.

Thanks everyone!

I've so far avoided giving my $0.02 but I can't help but to chime in with my usual response to this type thread. There is one simple way to fix all this. Get rid of bromine and go to a simple chlorine system. I'm not a big fan of bromine and have helped many people with this type issue over the years and almost all are MUCH happier with using chlorine. Bromine will sanitize but I and others can't get over the "chemical soup" type feeling that bromine gives when compared to what you get with chlorine. IMO, chlorine is also MUCH easier to use and the water is much nicer to sit in so if your next attempt doesn't work out so well I'd advise a switch (and you can always PM me if you need help if you ever do go the chlorine route).

Even with chlorine you still need to monitor pH, TA CH and now possibly CYA so it really is not going to simplify water balancing. I do agree that chlorine is much nicer than bromine (I've lived with both myself) and there is less smell but it takes a bit more work to maintain. Bromine is more fogiving of a bit of neglect and has wider tolerances for acceptable water balance ranges. These are it's main advantages.

Miss Noel,

IF you got the Taylor testkit as recommended it has treatment tables in it that will allow you to determine how much of a chemical you need to add based on your testing results. Trial and error don't play a part. Your testkit tells you what you need.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Even with chlorine you still need to monitor pH, TA CH and now possibly CYA so it really is not going to simplify water balancing. I do agree that chlorine is much nicer than bromine (I've lived with both myself) and there is less smell but it takes a bit more work to maintain. Bromine is more fogiving of a bit of neglect and has wider tolerances for acceptable water balance ranges. These are it's main advantages.

You are correct but I was mostly responding to the one part of her post where she stated:

"The other day after shocking (about an hour or so), we got into the tub and when the jets started a really heavy chemical odor came up and stung our eyes. We had to get out. Our skin was itchy and splotchy for a day."

[waterbear]

Spatech, I do agree with you on that one. I would guess that the bromine levels were through the roof at that point. (but then again, high chlorine levels after shocking would have similar results if you entered the tub, unless you were shocking with MPS.)