74bsp Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm having problems with our newly acquired spa. It's a Keys Backyard spa (yea, I read the fun the other person has had with theirs ). It's a long story, please bear with me. I'll try to give you as much info as possible... We bought it used (week between Xmas and New Years). Previous user said everything was fine. Only issue was that the lounger head rest and the basket that goes on top of the filter in the skimmer was missing (which basically makes the filter non-operational). Brought it home, hooked it up, filled it up and everything worked OK. After a while, we noticed that some of the jets weren't working and occasionally we would see a red bead type thing floating in the tub. Started pulling jets and found that many of the jets were blocked with these little little red rubber beads. Pulled most of the jets and cleaned them out. Still have a couple of jets blocked that I can't get out... Had one low flow display where we added water and everything worked fine again. Everything worked fine for 2-3 wks. One day was talking to my son and discussing the filter and basket (which I have ordered from Keys but haven't gotten yet, longer story), so I noticed that the filter was floating (nothing to hold it down without the filter basket), so I reached in and pulled the filter out to show my son. Next day, had a low flow, so I added more water. Couple days later, another low flow, added more water. By now, it's over full. Still getting HL and LF low flow codes. I've checked and all jets are turned on, tried it with filter, without filter, no difference. Luckily it ran enough this weekend that it didn't freeze when it was ~10 below. One thought I had was that without the basket, I get a pretty good whirlpool going in the skimmer depending upon the water level. Current water level, only small whirlpool occasionally. No matter what, it won't warm up. If we keep putting it on high pump, it will heat, but won't keep the heater running on low pump. Tonight, I pulled the side and felt of the heater, It was not hot to the touch when the HL code came on. I've tried priming the system multiple times. No help. I've read online (and on the Balboa web site) about flow switches. For the life of me, I can't find a flow switch on this system (VS 54358). From the Keys manual and looking at the system, it appears that they just use 2 temp sensors on each side of the heater to detect if it is overheating. I'm thinking that one of the sensors is bad, but don't know how to test them... This weekend it's supposed to be warmer, so I'll try to pull the heater out and look to see if I can see some kind of blockage, but the fact that the heater doesn't seem to be overheating makes me think the sensors are malfunctioning. Anyone have any ideas how to test them or anything else to try? Thanks, Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm having problems with our newly acquired spa. It's a Keys Backyard spa (yea, I read the fun the other person has had with theirs ). It's a long story, please bear with me. I'll try to give you as much info as possible... We bought it used (week between Xmas and New Years). Previous user said everything was fine. Only issue was that the lounger head rest and the basket that goes on top of the filter in the skimmer was missing (which basically makes the filter non-operational). Brought it home, hooked it up, filled it up and everything worked OK. After a while, we noticed that some of the jets weren't working and occasionally we would see a red bead type thing floating in the tub. Started pulling jets and found that many of the jets were blocked with these little little red rubber beads. Pulled most of the jets and cleaned them out. Still have a couple of jets blocked that I can't get out... Had one low flow display where we added water and everything worked fine again. Everything worked fine for 2-3 wks. One day was talking to my son and discussing the filter and basket (which I have ordered from Keys but haven't gotten yet, longer story), so I noticed that the filter was floating (nothing to hold it down without the filter basket), so I reached in and pulled the filter out to show my son. Next day, had a low flow, so I added more water. Couple days later, another low flow, added more water. By now, it's over full. Still getting HL and LF low flow codes. I've checked and all jets are turned on, tried it with filter, without filter, no difference. Luckily it ran enough this weekend that it didn't freeze when it was ~10 below. One thought I had was that without the basket, I get a pretty good whirlpool going in the skimmer depending upon the water level. Current water level, only small whirlpool occasionally. No matter what, it won't warm up. If we keep putting it on high pump, it will heat, but won't keep the heater running on low pump. Tonight, I pulled the side and felt of the heater, It was not hot to the touch when the HL code came on. I've tried priming the system multiple times. No help. I've read online (and on the Balboa web site) about flow switches. For the life of me, I can't find a flow switch on this system (VS 54358). From the Keys manual and looking at the system, it appears that they just use 2 temp sensors on each side of the heater to detect if it is overheating. I'm thinking that one of the sensors is bad, but don't know how to test them... This weekend it's supposed to be warmer, so I'll try to pull the heater out and look to see if I can see some kind of blockage, but the fact that the heater doesn't seem to be overheating makes me think the sensors are malfunctioning. Anyone have any ideas how to test them or anything else to try? Thanks, Kenton If your sure the pump is moving suffiecient water across the heater then it has to be a sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74bsp Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I'm having problems with our newly acquired spa. It's a Keys Backyard spa (yea, I read the fun the other person has had with theirs ). It's a long story, please bear with me. I'll try to give you as much info as possible... We bought it used (week between Xmas and New Years). Previous user said everything was fine. Only issue was that the lounger head rest and the basket that goes on top of the filter in the skimmer was missing (which basically makes the filter non-operational). Brought it home, hooked it up, filled it up and everything worked OK. After a while, we noticed that some of the jets weren't working and occasionally we would see a red bead type thing floating in the tub. Started pulling jets and found that many of the jets were blocked with these little little red rubber beads. Pulled most of the jets and cleaned them out. Still have a couple of jets blocked that I can't get out... Had one low flow display where we added water and everything worked fine again. Everything worked fine for 2-3 wks. One day was talking to my son and discussing the filter and basket (which I have ordered from Keys but haven't gotten yet, longer story), so I noticed that the filter was floating (nothing to hold it down without the filter basket), so I reached in and pulled the filter out to show my son. Next day, had a low flow, so I added more water. Couple days later, another low flow, added more water. By now, it's over full. Still getting HL and LF low flow codes. I've checked and all jets are turned on, tried it with filter, without filter, no difference. Luckily it ran enough this weekend that it didn't freeze when it was ~10 below. One thought I had was that without the basket, I get a pretty good whirlpool going in the skimmer depending upon the water level. Current water level, only small whirlpool occasionally. No matter what, it won't warm up. If we keep putting it on high pump, it will heat, but won't keep the heater running on low pump. Tonight, I pulled the side and felt of the heater, It was not hot to the touch when the HL code came on. I've tried priming the system multiple times. No help. I've read online (and on the Balboa web site) about flow switches. For the life of me, I can't find a flow switch on this system (VS 54358). From the Keys manual and looking at the system, it appears that they just use 2 temp sensors on each side of the heater to detect if it is overheating. I'm thinking that one of the sensors is bad, but don't know how to test them... This weekend it's supposed to be warmer, so I'll try to pull the heater out and look to see if I can see some kind of blockage, but the fact that the heater doesn't seem to be overheating makes me think the sensors are malfunctioning. Anyone have any ideas how to test them or anything else to try? Thanks, Kenton If your sure the pump is moving suffiecient water across the heater then it has to be a sensor. That's what I thought. It seems to me that the pump is moving plenty of water, but now I'm starting to second guess myself. I't supposed to warm up this weekend, so I'll pull the heater and pump out and inspect them to see what I can see. Thanks for the reply. Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 That's what I thought. It seems to me that the pump is moving plenty of water, but now I'm starting to second guess myself. I't supposed to warm up this weekend, so I'll pull the heater and pump out and inspect them to see what I can see. Thanks for the reply. Kenton The sensor on the pump side of the heater is a flow sensor and the other is a high limit. There should be one other before the heater for freeze protection if so equiped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74bsp Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 The sensor on the pump side of the heater is a flow sensor and the other is a high limit. There should be one other before the heater for freeze protection if so equiped. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this (or I'm completely missing the boat)... From the Balboa Instruments web site, it calculates flow based upon the temp. difference across the heater. It seems that anything more than a 6 degree difference between the input and output of the heater will throw a HL code which escalates to a LF code. For more info: http://balboa-i.graphtek.com/getdoc.cfm?id=76 http://balboa-i.graphtek.com/getdoc.cfm?id=99 If you follow the Error code diagnostics at http://service.balboa-instruments.com/ErrorCode/ it details the 4-6 degree threshold (depending upon the size of the heater. In my case 4kW). Thanks, Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 The sensor on the pump side of the heater is a flow sensor and the other is a high limit. There should be one other before the heater for freeze protection if so equiped. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this (or I'm completely missing the boat)... From the Balboa Instruments web site, it calculates flow based upon the temp. difference across the heater. It seems that anything more than a 6 degree difference between the input and output of the heater will throw a HL code which escalates to a LF code. For more info: http://balboa-i.graphtek.com/getdoc.cfm?id=76 http://balboa-i.graphtek.com/getdoc.cfm?id=99 If you follow the Error code diagnostics at http://service.balboa-instruments.com/ErrorCode/ it details the 4-6 degree threshold (depending upon the size of the heater. In my case 4kW). Thanks, Kenton No problem, you are allowed to dissagree with me because you are right. I did not research but fired from the hip. There are several controllers that function exactly like that. I still have not researched as I was under the impression that duel temp sensors was going to be phased out. my bad! OK so now you should have an easier time removing and testing or better yet just replacing both sensors. There must be a bunch of those controllers on Balboas shelf yet, How old is the tub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74bsp Posted January 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 No problem, you are allowed to disagree with me because you are right. I did not research but fired from the hip. There are several controllers that function exactly like that. I still have not researched as I was under the impression that duel temp sensors was going to be phased out. my bad! OK so now you should have an easier time removing and testing or better yet just replacing both sensors. There must be a bunch of those controllers on Balboas shelf yet, How old is the tub? It's a 2006. Looking at Balboa's web site, it's under the current controllers, so not sure if they are phasing them out or not. I'll let you all know what I find out. Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Since you dont have a filter basket and locking ring to keep the filter in are you sure you dont have an airlocks??? Are you getting any flow when pump 1 comes on?? If your getting a huge funnel then your introducing air into the system which can create an airlock. Another could be something got by the filter and has wrapped itself to the first sensor. Lastly you may just need new sensors. I wouldnt wait for keys to send you a basket and lock ring just go to your local spa store they will probably have one that fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74bsp Posted January 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Since you dont have a filter basket and locking ring to keep the filter in are you sure you dont have an airlocks??? Are you getting any flow when pump 1 comes on?? If your getting a huge funnel then your introducing air into the system which can create an airlock. Another could be something got by the filter and has wrapped itself to the first sensor. Lastly you may just need new sensors. I wouldnt wait for keys to send you a basket and lock ring just go to your local spa store they will probably have one that fits. I promised I'd fill everyone in on what I found. Even though it was single digits tonight, I HAD to go out and figure out what was wrong (luckily the wind was being blocked by the house. Gotta love winter in Chicago ). It only has one pump. I get flow when it comes on. I measured the resistance of the sensors and they were both reading within 2% of each other. Assume that they have linear response, that would be around 1.2 degrees at the temp the spa was tonight (or 2 degrees when operating correctly). Might make it more sensitive, but not the problem. I pulled the heater, and Pathfinder hit the nail on the head. Some kind of heavy plastic warning label got by the filter (my guess is it got dislodged when I pulled the filter out to show my son) and sucked in and wrapped itself around the first sensor. It was partially blocking the flow and affecting the reading of the first sensor. I pulled the blockage out, re-assembled and it has been running for about an hour (raising the temp by 5 degrees up to a balmy 64 degrees) with no LF or HL codes. Guess the engineer in me was over analyzing it. Guess my highly sensitive hand flow meter isn't as accurate as I thought it was... I checked with the closest spa/pool/pool table/bar/exercise store, and they didn't have the basket. There is a local store that specializes in spas and has a service dept. I'll call Keys tomorrow and if they haven't shipped out the basket yet (last time I called they claimed that their credit card merchant processor was down and would be working again this week. Lame excuse), I'll pick one up from them. At a minimum, I'll try to find something to keep foreign material from getting sucked through the system and keep the filter in position. Tomorrow night, I'm in there. Don't care how cold it is! Thanks for the help guys! Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 I would have posted sooner but the first time I just grazed through your post. I re-read it tonight and saw the part about the vortex and posted on what I have found in that situation only in my case the customer had a prophylactic wrapped around the sensor. His kid had a party the weekend b4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 I would have posted sooner but the first time I just grazed through your post. I re-read it tonight and saw the part about the vortex and posted on what I have found in that situation only in my case the customer had a prophylactic wrapped around the sensor. His kid had a party the weekend b4 You may have a continued problem with the little red beads you found. They could block impeller, wedge in the heater etc. so I would keep an eye on those also. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastside Spas Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Here is some information you may wish to consider... The Keys Corner Spa is notorious for flow problems. This model is manufactured in China, not at the Keys Factory in Texas. The primary reason is that the PVC flex piping used to manufacture these tubs is also manufactured in China and is NOT schedule 40, actually closer to schedule 20. For those of you who do not know what that means, it is thin walled and subject to collapsing under suction. The pump used on this model is a single speed (3450 rpm) and within a very short time causes the suction line to the pump to fail and collapse, causing the loss of water flow and the control pack to start showing flow errors. The red beading is a bit of a mystery though. I suspect it could be coming from the filter or possibly from something in the plumbing line, maybe even from the inside lining of the piping, due to piping failure. I am a spa service company doing warranty work for Keys since 2006. (Only the suction side) It should be apparent which piping is failing, it is oblong, like it has been crushed or pinched. Replacement of the piping to the pump is required to resolve this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74bsp Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Here is some information you may wish to consider... The Keys Corner Spa is notorious for flow problems. This model is manufactured in China, not at the Keys Factory in Texas. The primary reason is that the PVC flex piping used to manufacture these tubs is also manufactured in China and is NOT schedule 40, actually closer to schedule 20. For those of you who do not know what that means, it is thin walled and subject to collapsing under suction. The pump used on this model is a single speed (3450 rpm) and within a very short time causes the suction line to the pump to fail and collapse, causing the loss of water flow and the control pack to start showing flow errors. The red beading is a bit of a mystery though. I suspect it could be coming from the filter or possibly from something in the plumbing line, maybe even from the inside lining of the piping, due to piping failure. I am a spa service company doing warranty work for Keys since 2006. (Only the suction side) It should be apparent which piping is failing, it is oblong, like it has been crushed or pinched. Replacement of the piping to the pump is required to resolve this issue. Thanks for the info. Since I took the foreign material out of the heater, it's been working fine for the past 3 days. I think the red beads are filler from some toy or something that exploded in the tub. Since it didn't have a skimmer basket, they just got sucked through and are now in all of the jets. I'll keep pulling the jets occasionally and cleaning them out until I can't find any more... Now I just need to find the skimmer basket for it. I ordered one from Keys 1/3/08, was told that it would ship out next day. Still haven't gotten it. My wife called and started pushing on the customer service guy who promptly hung up on her! (I think I heard that in someone else's posting). Called back and got to speak to a very helpful person this time who explained that they are changing their name to Infinity Spas???? And they don't have a merchant processing account set up yet, so they can't process credit cards. At this point, we're not real ready to send them a certified check to get it... Please see my next posting for my quest for the skimmer basket... Thanks, Kenton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastside Spas Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Here is some information you may wish to consider... The Keys Corner Spa is notorious for flow problems. This model is manufactured in China, not at the Keys Factory in Texas. The primary reason is that the PVC flex piping used to manufacture these tubs is also manufactured in China and is NOT schedule 40, actually closer to schedule 20. For those of you who do not know what that means, it is thin walled and subject to collapsing under suction. The pump used on this model is a single speed (3450 rpm) and within a very short time causes the suction line to the pump to fail and collapse, causing the loss of water flow and the control pack to start showing flow errors. The red beading is a bit of a mystery though. I suspect it could be coming from the filter or possibly from something in the plumbing line, maybe even from the inside lining of the piping, due to piping failure. I am a spa service company doing warranty work for Keys since 2006. (Only the suction side) It should be apparent which piping is failing, it is oblong, like it has been crushed or pinched. Replacement of the piping to the pump is required to resolve this issue. Thanks for the info. Since I took the foreign material out of the heater, it's been working fine for the past 3 days. I think the red beads are filler from some toy or something that exploded in the tub. Since it didn't have a skimmer basket, they just got sucked through and are now in all of the jets. I'll keep pulling the jets occasionally and cleaning them out until I can't find any more... Now I just need to find the skimmer basket for it. I ordered one from Keys 1/3/08, was told that it would ship out next day. Still haven't gotten it. My wife called and started pushing on the customer service guy who promptly hung up on her! (I think I heard that in someone else's posting). Called back and got to speak to a very helpful person this time who explained that they are changing their name to Infinity Spas???? And they don't have a merchant processing account set up yet, so they can't process credit cards. At this point, we're not real ready to send them a certified check to get it... Please see my next posting for my quest for the skimmer basket... Thanks, Kenton You need to call them at 877-897-7493, as soon as it answers punch in Ext 854 for Scott Martin in Parts or Ext 847 for Otis Hewitt (Manager). Explain to them your need and apparent lack of customer support. If you get no where on this email me directly at charles@coastsideservices.com, I'll make a few calls myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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