Are All Chemical Brands Equal?

[newtotubbing]

Sorry another newbie question; My spouse and I are discussing the merits of brands....is it OK to substitute a different brand of the same chemical or should you stay with one Brand. For instance; we are using brand X for all cheimcials and have run out of Alkalinty increaser. Can we use Brand Y Alkalinty increaser? Or should we just wait and order the same brand (dealer is too far to drive too)?? Thanks for all your help and putting up with us newbies!

[B0Darc]

Sorry another newbie question; My spouse and I are discussing the merits of brands....is it OK to substitute a different brand of the same chemical or should you stay with one Brand. For instance; we are using brand X for all cheimcials and have run out of Alkalinty increaser. Can we use Brand Y Alkalinty increaser? Or should we just wait and order the same brand (dealer is too far to drive too)?? Thanks for all your help and putting up with us newbies!

There may be some merits to staying with one brand, especially in the more specialized bromine or biguanide systems (Baquacil etc), but this is pure chemistry and the chemicals used are usually in pure form especially pH up and down, DiChlor, and non-Chlorine Shock Oxidizer. Read the chemistry threads well (you have to go up and then over from this forum... this is NOT the chemistry forum and there is one). Personally I like the Dupont lineup at HomeDespot, but I use DiChlor and bleach, and the Dupont sanitizer is bromine... I just buy my dichlor somewhere else... for me my pool supply is cheapest! ...but if you're in the Hommie Depot pick up a bottle of Peace of Mind Spa fragrance ...good stuff.

Of course read the labels and follow directions... some of the exceptions I remember are pH down products having additional chemicals like Borates

[newtotubbing]

Sorry another newbie question; My spouse and I are discussing the merits of brands....is it OK to substitute a different brand of the same chemical or should you stay with one Brand. For instance; we are using brand X for all cheimcials and have run out of Alkalinty increaser. Can we use Brand Y Alkalinty increaser? Or should we just wait and order the same brand (dealer is too far to drive too)?? Thanks for all your help and putting up with us newbies!

There may be some merits to staying with one brand, especially in the more specialized bromine or biguanide systems (Baquacil etc), but this is pure chemistry and the chemicals used are usually in pure form especially pH up and down, DiChlor, and non-Chlorine Shock Oxidizer. Read the chemistry threads well (you have to go up and then over from this forum... this is NOT the chemistry forum and there is one). Personally I like the Dupont lineup at HomeDespot, but I use DiChlor and bleach, and the Dupont sanitizer is bromine... I just buy my dichlor somewhere else... for me my pool supply is cheapest! ...but if you're in the Hommie Depot pick up a bottle of Peace of Mind Spa fragrance ...good stuff.

Of course read the labels and follow directions... some of the exceptions I remember are pH down products having additional chemicals like Borates

Thanks so much for the info, Sorry I posted in the wrong place. Will check out the other forum....

[thestallion]

I think it is reasonable to say that chemicals in general that you purchase at a pool and spa store will be generally better than those at a big box store. There is a credible reason as to why. Most of your big box chems come from China and are stored many times in the direct sun which depletes the usable chem inside by as much as half. This weekend a customer came into our store as they were doing a water change and they told me they had tried chems from wal mart and could tell the difference that they had to add more to get the same results. I think how ever that brand to brand there is not much difference.

[biggz]

I with limited information certainly wouldn't want to dispute a industry professional, but I use Aqua Chem Dichor and occasionally other Aqua Chem products (clarifier,PH up and Down) all bought at the local Walmart and see no difference in the results. There are some product that I only purchase from the pool supplier. The liquid chlorine in pool stores tend to be fresher since the turn over is much more. Products like "PoolPerfect /Phosfree are not sold at Walmart so I buy that a the pool store as well however when you consider that a spa can be successfully maintained with common bleach and baking soda it becomes obvious that even the liquid chlorine sold at Walmart or other "Big Box" outlets will probably give you successful results. Oh by the way Aqua Chem is a subsidiary of Biolab which also makes commercial pool products that are marketed as Chemtura. They also make Bioguard, Bayrol, Hydrotech, Spaguard, etc and are based in Lawrenceville Ga. Here's their link for your review.

http://www.biolabinc.com/index3.html

I'm not sure but it doesn't look like their a Chinese company to me. Did I mention that there also sold at more cost effective prices.

[chem geek]

Furthermore, for the very basic chemicals for maintaining pH, Alkalinity, Borates and Chlorine, these are made by reputable manufacturers and brands that may be found in grocery stores as follows:

Arm & Hammer Baking Soda - this is Sodium Bicarbonate and is identical to Alkalinity Up products.

Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (careful: not the laundry detergent) - this is Sodium Carbonate (aka Soda Ash) and is identical to most pH Up products.

20 Mule Team Borax - this is Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate and is virtually identical to Proteam Supreme and similar products (the difference is in the amount of hydrated water they contain). Borax can be used to raise the pH with less increase in TA compared to Washing Soda / pH Up. In larger quantities, it can be used as an additional pH buffer and algaecide.

Clorox Regular (unscented) Bleach - this is 6% chlorine (in the U.S. -- may be 5.25% in Canada) and is identical to chlorinating liquid sold in pool stores except for its lower strength (i.e. it's more diluted with water). Off-brand bleaches may be significantly lower in strength and unfortunately are not usually labeled as to their strength though usually the "Ultra" version of these brands is designed to compete with Clorox so is usually 6% bleach.

Some spa and pool products will combine these and other basic chemicals, but you can always add the appropriate separate amounts yourself and oftentimes that's better anyway since you can then independently adjust pH and TA the way you want.

The acids, Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) and Dry Acid (Sodium Bisulfate) are very standard as well though some hardware stores sell Muriatic Acid at half strength but at the same price as full strength so always check the label. Half-strength doesn't fume as much so it does have its advantages. It's possible that the customer example was with this half-strength acid since it's not obviously labeled that way.

The product that degrades the fastest is chlorinating liquid (see the chart at the bottom of this page) and it is true that if left out in the sun this will degrade rather quickly (even in their bottles as heat degrades the product, not just UV rays from sunlight). Bleach can also lose its strength, but these forms of chlorine are all produced locally since they are easy to produce (via the chlor-alkali process) and are heavy to ship (due to their mostly water content). So for this product I would say that finding a store that keeps this form of chlorine out of the sun and has good turnover is important. My local pool store is responsible in this way so I buy my 12.5% chlorinating liquid (for my pool) there and have tested it and found that it's always around full-strength. Furthermore, the pool store reuses the bottles so I return a set (including a crate that holds 4) and take a fresh set so this is obviously much better for the environment as it avoids plastic in the garbage or recycled (reuse is better than recycling). So even though they are a little more expensive than bleach (adjusted for equivalent chlorine content), I prefer to buy from my pool store and have thanked them for being responsible and reasonably priced.

Cal-Hypo (Calcium Hypochlorite) comes in different strengths ranging from around 48%, 65% and 73%. Trichlor tabs are usually nearly pure Trichlor (at nearly 92% Available Chlorine) while Dichlor powder/granules are sometimes "cut" with other chemicals (so perhaps this is what your customer found), but usually are pure at 55% Available Chlorine for the more common Dihydrate form or 65% Available Chlorine for the Anhydrous form. You can compare the true costs of various chlorine sources by looking at this post.

As for the industry sources of pool and spa chemicals, the big three in the U.S. are Chemtura (BioGuard, SpaGuard, OMNI, etc.), Advantis Technologies (GLB, Leisure Time, Robarb, etc.), and Arch Chemicals (HTH, PoolLife, Baquacil, etc.) with additional distributors such as Kem-Tek / Spa-Kem. Virtually all non-chlorine shock is made by Dupont from Oxone and is re-branded with differing names of non-chlorine shock. Most of the stabilized chlorine (Trichlor, Dichlor) products are made by Oxy Chemicals and re-branded by the other companies I mentioned (who are mostly distributors except for specialty chemical products that they make). Chlorinating liquid is made by a variety of companies in different parts of the country including Odyssey Manufacturing Ultra Chlor, Kem-Tek (also a distributor as mentioned above), Hasa Sani-Clor, etc.

Richard

[thestallion]

I with limited information certainly wouldn't want to dispute a industry professional, but I use Aqua Chem Dichor and occasionally other Aqua Chem products (clarifier,PH up and Down) all bought at the local Walmart and see no difference in the results. There are some product that I only purchase from the pool supplier. The liquid chlorine in pool stores tend to be fresher since the turn over is much more. Products like "PoolPerfect /Phosfree are not sold at Walmart so I buy that a the pool store as well however when you consider that a spa can be successfully maintained with common bleach and baking soda it becomes obvious that even the liquid chlorine sold at Walmart or other "Big Box" outlets will probably give you successful results. Oh by the way Aqua Chem is a subsidiary of Biolab which also makes commercial pool products that are marketed as Chemtura. They also make Bioguard, Bayrol, Hydrotech, Spaguard, etc and are based in Lawrenceville Ga. Here's their link for your review.

http://www.biolabinc.com/index3.html

I'm not sure but it doesn't look like their a Chinese company to me. Did I mention that there also sold at more cost effective prices.

The company may not be a Chinese company but that does not mean thier products are not produced there. Also if you just look at tabs as a example. What is used for binders is vastly diffrent.

[B0Darc]

Volatile and toxic chemicals can be manufactured for much less in other countries because they don't have to meet our same safety and environmental regulations which tend to dramatically raise the cost. We won't even talk about liability insurance. To stay competitive companies have no choice but to have them made elsewhere... I mean General Motors is an American company, are any Chevy's still built here? Chances are the Chinese are making some spa chemicals, but items like chlorinating liquid (bleach) and muriatic acid or cheap and simple to make and heavy (and dangerous!) to transport, so it's easy to agree with chem geek along those lines.

[cplarsen]

Thanks chem geek. Good post.

[chem geek]

The company may not be a Chinese company but that does not mean thier products are not produced there. Also if you just look at tabs as a example. What is used for binders is vastly diffrent.

The different binder in tabs is only for specialty forms of stabilized chlorine such as BioGuard Smart Sticks which are bound to only dissolve when there is water flow so are designed to be put into the skimmer (normally, putting Trichlor tabs into the skimmer is a no-no, but these are designed to not dissolve when the pump is off). Most Trichlor tabs are quite standard, however, and are simply compressed Trichlor with little or no binder. In fact, sometimes it is advertised that there are no fillers, though this website's description of using the OMNI Trichlor tablet in the skimmer is irresponsible unless the pump is running 24/7. Trichlor tabs are very acidic so dissolving without water flow when the pump is off can build up strong acidity near the tablet which can damage the area near the skimmer as well as giving a blast of acid downstream when the pump turns on (though this is very brief). I can tell you from personal experience that even having Trichlor in a floating feeder can be corrosive as mine "parked" itself near some stainless steel rails and rusted the mounts closest to the feeder (this was before I decided to take things into my own hands and learn about pool water chemistry).

Cal-Hypo tabs have to have some sort of binder as even compressed Cal-Hypo does not stay together very well. Unfortunately, Cal-Hypo tablets tend to fall apart near the end when they get smaller and also tend to leave a residue of binder material.

I am not as familiar with the bromine tablet manufacturers so can't comment on those.

Richard

[biggz]

The company may not be a Chinese company but that does not mean thier products are not produced there. Also if you just look at tabs as a example. What is used for binders is vastly diffrent.

Stallion, Although you have a point that the products of the Chempura Corporation could be produced in China, I find it odd that you have not produced one shred of evidence to this claim. Yet I have given you and the forum evidence that the company is American based. If you take the time to go to their site you will see that this company goes back too the 1800s. You will also read that this company has affiliations with Uniroyal chemical to name a few. You probably have products in your house that this company directly or indirectly manufactured. Yet you haven't shown the proof. Why? A new user asked a simple question and he wants a honest unbiased answer. Not "jibba jabba". If you don't have the facts why make the statement? Has your obvious hatred for box stores clouded your sense of realism? Show the forum the Chinese connection. In fact why did you bring up China in the first place? Are you attempting to appeal to the forums and posters sense of nationalism? If that's the case this is the wrong site for that type of response. Chempura is an American company that manufactures their products. If they are sending the manufacturing duties to China then what are the 5600 employees doing? And as for the tabs, what makes you think theirs are bad and yours are better? What product did you sell your customer in your store and I'll gladly research that company to see where there tabs are manufactured. I'll also research their sales to see how much better their products are selling then the ones that I'm talking about. This "Big Box" bashing is pure nonsense. Your suppose to be a professional. Act like it. Biggz

[B0Darc]

Thanks chem geek. Good post.

Yeah thanks mucho chem_hombre. It's funny how we have such a wide selection of pool and spa products but really they are mostly made by just 3 manufacturers.

[Pathfinder]

I will jump in on the tablet issue. Most tablets you find from your Walmart,HD,Canadian Tire, etc... are made by the big chem companies that make them for dealers. The difference is quality of the tablet. The big box stores are made with extra fillers and binders. When these tabs are pressed they are no where near as firm as what you will buy from a dealer. If you opened up a bucket of tablets from a dealer i.e. Sani Marc or Bio Guard and a bucket from a discount store and compare how many broken tabs are in each. You will also notice how easily the lesser priced tabs crumble. Now I cant say the same for powder chems, they are what they are. I know that Walmart is not cheaper than me if someone wants a 50lbs bag of sodium bi carb or soda ash.

On certain items a dealer is more expensive not because they want bigger profits but the qualilty is just better.

[biggz]

I will jump in on the tablet issue. Most tablets you find from your Walmart,HD,Canadian Tire, etc... are made by the big chem companies that make them for dealers. The difference is quality of the tablet. The big box stores are made with extra fillers and binders. When these tabs are pressed they are no where near as firm as what you will buy from a dealer. If you opened up a bucket of tablets from a dealer i.e. Sani Marc or Bio Guard and a bucket from a discount store and compare how many broken tabs are in each. You will also notice how easily the lesser priced tabs crumble. Now I cant say the same for powder chems, they are what they are. I know that Walmart is not cheaper than me if someone wants a 50lbs bag of sodium bi carb or soda ash.

On certain items a dealer is more expensive not because they want bigger profits but the qualilty is just better.

'Pathfinder', I'll agree that the tabs from the "big box" may have a few broken tablets but the results are still the same in terms of water quality and to imply that they are not is not being fair to a new user. As I pointed out, on Chempura's website they manufacture BioGuard and Spa Guard for dealers and Aqua Chem, Pool Time and Spa Time for Mass merchants. see link:

http://www.chemtura.com/corporate/v/index....nextfmt=default

To say that they are made in China without evidence is careless and only leads to lack of credibility. That is unfortunate since we all come here for straight talk from the professionals and people that have experience with various products. The fact is that tablets can't be used in a spa anyway so again what's the difference in diclor from Walmart or a dealer? I'd venture to say little to none.

[Pathfinder]

'Pathfinder', I'll agree that the tabs from the "big box" may have a few broken tablets but the results are still the same in terms of water quality and to imply that they are not is not being fair to a new user. As I pointed out, on Chempura's website they manufacture BioGuard and Spa Guard for dealers and Aqua Chem, Pool Time and Spa Time for Mass merchants. see link:

http://www.chemtura.com/corporate/v/index....nextfmt=default

The fact is that tablets can't be used in a spa anyway so again what's the difference in diclor from Walmart or a dealer? I'd venture to say little to none.

Since when are tablets not allowed in a spa??? Just shows you dont know that much to be making claims. It is fair to say water quality is not equal when buying the cheaper tabs. 11 yrs of testing water and customers complaining to me after they switched to the cheaper brand tells me that as well. If you fully read my post I never said dry chems like di-chlor were different. I said "they are what they are"

Im sure if you got to talking with a rep from Chemtura you will find not things are created equal.

[biggz]

Since when are tablets not allowed in a spa??? Just shows you dont know that much to be making claims. It is fair to say water quality is not equal when buying the cheaper tabs. 11 yrs of testing water and customers complaining to me after they switched to the cheaper brand tells me that as well. If you fully read my post I never said dry chems like di-chlor were different. I said "they are what they are"

Im sure if you got to talking with a rep from Chemtura you will find not things are created equal.

Coulda' swore I deleted this post already....

Note from moderator. We now have a zero tolerance for personal attacks and this message will replace any posts containing such.

This post contained a personal attack or derogatory remark and has been removed! The original poster is more than welcome to rephrase and repost their message, however if the personal attacks continue they will be banned"

[Dr. Spa]

Lighten up folks.......... I'm about to delete half the posts in this thread and lock it.

[biggz]

Lighten up folks.......... I'm about to delete half the posts in this thread and lock it.

Sorry, Dr. Spa, I'll just say I agree to disagree and repost a kinder response.

Since when are tablets not allowed in a spa??? Just shows you dont know that much to be making claims. It is fair to say water quality is not equal when buying the cheaper tabs. 11 yrs of testing water and customers complaining to me after they switched to the cheaper brand tells me that as well. If you fully read my post I never said dry chems like di-chlor were different. I said "they are what they are"

Im sure if you got to talking with a rep from Chemtura you will find not things are created equal.

I don't claim to be an expert. Do you recommend putting triclor tabs in your customers spas? That is what we're talking about. And why are you trying to change the subject that it was alleged that the products sold at "big box" stores particularly chemicals are made in China. I've owned a pool for several years and only complained to the local pool supplier when I bought my first pool 16 years ago. Stay own the subject that it was claimed that those chemicals are made in China. In fact, you can use common bleach and baking soda to maintain a pool or spa for that matter. On your last point, I never disagreed with you regarding "powder chemicals as you put it". If you do recommend putting trichlor tabs in your customers spas, please enlighten the forum on how this is done. Your attempt to placate my post is useless to the topic thats been discussed since "newtotubbing" asked the original question.

[chem geek]

This thread describes some big-box stores that sold HTH Trichlor that had copper in it, but that was a year and a half ago. The current HTH Pace 3" Chlorinating Tablets do not appear to have copper in them. The HTH Duration Chlorinating Tablets are slow-dissolving Cal-Hypo that has binders. HTH Chlorinating Granules are granules/powdered Cal-Hypo (without binders).

I can understand some unbranded or off-brand products being of lower quality, but are you saying that the same brand of product (i.e. HTH, BioGuard, GLB, ...) sold at the big-box stores is different than that sold at pool stores? Or are you talking about store-brands (which I haven't seen for pool chemicals, though we've all seen for other consumer goods)? If the main chemical companies wanted to protect pool store's profits and prevent cannibalizing sales, then they should sell the big-box stores store-brands or different brand names and could then do so with lower quality and lower price without confusion. In my limited experience, I haven't seen that and instead see what appear to be some of the same products in the same packaging, labeling, etc.

As for Trichlor tabs falling apart, five years ago I had some shipped directly from a distributor/manufacturer in a 50 pound container and a few (I think around 4 or 5 out of 100) were broken. I'd bet that it has more to do with the care in shipping than anything else and I could understand how a big-box store might not be so careful to prevent "dropping" containers compared to a pool store that was more knowledgeable about its contents and was more careful. The same could be said about keeping chlorinating liquid out of sunlight -- I would expect pool stores to be more careful about that sort of thing than the big-box stores.

Richard

[biggz]

This thread describes some big-box stores that sold HTH Trichlor that had copper in it, but that was a year and a half ago. The current HTH Pace 3" Chlorinating Tablets do not appear to have copper in them. The HTH Duration Chlorinating Tablets are slow-dissolving Cal-Hypo that has binders. HTH Chlorinating Granules are granules/powdered Cal-Hypo (without binders).

I can understand some unbranded or off-brand products being of lower quality, but are you saying that the same brand of product (i.e. HTH, BioGuard, GLB, ...) sold at the big-box stores is different than that sold at pool stores? Or are you talking about store-brands (which I haven't seen for pool chemicals, though we've all seen for other consumer goods)? If the main chemical companies wanted to protect pool store's profits and prevent cannibalizing sales, then they should sell the big-box stores store-brands or different brand names and could then do so with lower quality and lower price without confusion. In my limited experience, I haven't seen that and instead see what appear to be some of the same products in the same packaging, labeling, etc.

As for Trichlor tabs falling apart, five years ago I had some shipped directly from a distributor/manufacturer in a 50 pound container and a few (I think around 4 or 5 out of 100) were broken. I'd bet that it has more to do with the care in shipping than anything else and I could understand how a big-box store might not be so careful to prevent "dropping" containers compared to a pool store that was more knowledgeable about its contents and was more careful. The same could be said about keeping chlorinating liquid out of sunlight -- I would expect pool stores to be more careful about that sort of thing than the big-box stores.

Richard

Richard, what about water quality? Would it be the same?

[Pathfinder]

Biggz, i wish you would read better. I never said anything about chems coming from China.If you read closely Stallion made that post not me. Second where did tri-chlor tabs come from in all this conversation besides from Chem geek. In Canada you wont find any big box store carrying the same lines as a pool & spa store. When it comes to pucks and tablets there are differences. You guys can read all you want but years of dealing with this issue I know there is a difference.

When it comes to your basic chlorine powders, alk, ph & calcium increasers and ph- Its mainly all the same. I have no idea if some of the bulk stuff is coming from China & dont care. I deal with Sani Marc products which are made in Canada. When it comes to liquids and specialty products, bulk stores cant hold a candle to dealer lines.

[chem geek]

If the binders or whatever is "extra" in the tablets that are of inferior quality don't break down readily, then you can end up with some residue in the water that will take some time to get filtered out or possibly eventually break down. If the tablets are broken into lots of pieces or if they are not bound or compressed well, then they could dissolve faster and the feeder would need to be adjusted accordingly (if possible). Other than that, the water quality should be the same since the chlorine is chlorine (and Trichlor is Trichlor, etc.). I'm not disputing that there may be some inferior off-brands out there, but it was news to me that the same brands with the seemingly same packaging and ingredients contents are different, if this is indeed the case.

[EDIT] I see that Pathfinder just posted and clarified the issue. In Canada, there are separate lines (brands) carried at the big-box stores than at the pool stores. In that case, I could see where a manufacturer could distinguish these brands by quality. It seems that this may occur less frequently in the U.S. from what I've seen in the big-box and hardware stores I've been in. And he's right that I was the one who brought up Tri-Chlor tabs in the context of special tabs that have unique binders (BioGuard Smart Sticks). [END-EDIT]

[Shaamus]

There is no chlorine tab that should be used in a spa. The tabs/sticks are usually tri-chlor and that's a no-no in a spa due to its concentration. Chem Geek has posted about this over in the chemistry forum. Y'all can do a search on the subject and let that subject die.

As for the off-brands. Some are good. Some aren't as good. The problem is no-one really knows because outside of Chem Geek, who pulls MSDS sheets when looking at a particular chemical. Who else can really read them? This goes deeper than where's it made or what's in it. This is about dealer vs. internet vs. mass merchandiser vs. consumer looking to get away with the cheapest thing out there that gets the job done. The fact is Leisure Time and the other brand-name lines are very good. They take a whole view approach to their line and adjust the chems accordingly. An example is their Renew non-chlorine shock. They add buffers to it. Many cheaper shock products are just 100% Oxone MPS. The reason Leisure Time adds the buffers is because MPS has a tendency to drop pH. If you have high pH anyway, then use the cheaper 100% MPS, but LT adds the buffers to make Renew as pH neutral as possible.

We sell both Leisure Time and an off-brand, Spa Choice. To my knowledge, outside of the shock, the product lines are very similar in construction. We have good prices on both lines, but the Spa Choice is a little cheaper. I chalk it up to paying for Leisure Time's R&D and advertising. Despite the higher prices, we sell 4x more of it than the Spa Choice. It just works and people seem to like it. Like others have said, the mass merchants are buying from the same suppliers that private label for individual stores in some cases. Dealers don't tell their customers that the bottle in their showroom with their name on it is horrible compared to the brand-name product because they know it's not.

All this said, thestallion brings up a good point in that you really don't know what's in it. But those of you buying from a mass merchant paying 20-35% lower prices isn't going to take a dealer's word for it. My advice is to try it. If it works for you, great... you're saving money. But also give the brand-names their due, they do make a great product and are "in the business of spa chemisty". What I mean by that is they are doing the R&D and introducing the products, taking the risks. The mass merchants are selling the old-standbys. Eventually if you put the innovators out of business by buying the cheap knockoffs, no one will be around to invent the next great product. Lowes and Walmart aren't in the product creation business and I think a lot of people forget that part of our economy.

[thestallion]

The company may not be a Chinese company but that does not mean thier products are not produced there. Also if you just look at tabs as a example. What is used for binders is vastly diffrent.

Stallion, Although you have a point that the products of the Chempura Corporation could be produced in China, I find it odd that you have not produced one shred of evidence to this claim. Yet I have given you and the forum evidence that the company is American based. If you take the time to go to their site you will see that this company goes back too the 1800s. You will also read that this company has affiliations with Uniroyal chemical to name a few. You probably have products in your house that this company directly or indirectly manufactured. Yet you haven't shown the proof. Why? A new user asked a simple question and he wants a honest unbiased answer. Not "jibba jabba". If you don't have the facts why make the statement? Has your obvious hatred for box stores clouded your sense of realism? Show the forum the Chinese connection. In fact why did you bring up China in the first place? Are you attempting to appeal to the forums and posters sense of nationalism? If that's the case this is the wrong site for that type of response. Chempura is an American company that manufactures their products. If they are sending the manufacturing duties to China then what are the 5600 employees doing? And as for the tabs, what makes you think theirs are bad and yours are better? What product did you sell your customer in your store and I'll gladly research that company to see where there tabs are manufactured. I'll also research their sales to see how much better their products are selling then the ones that I'm talking about. This "Big Box" bashing is pure nonsense. Your suppose to be a professional. Act like it. Biggz

First off I made a statement that when I have the time "if" it applies to this company I will post it and I hope your apology will be as rapid and heart felt as your criticism. It is a very funny thing that happens on these boards people who are not in the spa industry love to throw stones at those who are when they (I) make a statement about something that we or again (I) know to be true. Now never did I say they were using chems produced in China but I will find out.. BUT what was actually said by me was they may be...I was not responding directly to the particular company your referenced.....NOW you mention the original question asked by the poster and they wanted an you mentioned an unbiased opinion....First I think my opinion is actually far more unbiased than the one you hold....You know nothing about me or what I recommend on a daily basis...Chem geek mentions baking soda.....I tell customers each week who into my store come to go and buy a 12lb bag at Sam's Club for 6 bucks and save some money of course this comes at a direct cost to me to do this but it is what I would do myself and unlike you , I am putting my money where my mouth is but I feel it is the right thing to do...now should someone want only to raise PH or Alk than I point to another product that we carry that will only raise one but for the most part I recommend the baking soda...I also try and bring in items that after researching I feel offer the best value for the dollar spent...I am not go to get into all of the examples as I feel they would tedious....But what I do know that is factual is that as a whole the products we carry are better than the big box stuff and the proof is the people who try both and come back to me and tell me they can see an difference. You asked me to me professional I ask you to be a grown up and look into to something instead just jumping on the dealer bashing the big box bandwagon...that's is such an easy way out for those who want to toss a big net over an entire industry when they lack any genuine insights....

Tell me Biggz do you use suave shampoo ? or do you buy something you feel is better and if so why and how is it better... If your a man do you wear Old Spice, Brutt, High karate or something from a dept store like say Nordstroms that costs 10 to 15 times as much....If your a woman do you buy your make up at walgreen or again a store like Nordstroms......and if not WHY ?......because there is a difference

[thestallion]

If the binders or whatever is "extra" in the tablets that are of inferior quality don't break down readily, then you can end up with some residue in the water that will take some time to get filtered out or possibly eventually break down. If the tablets are broken into lots of pieces or if they are not bound or compressed well, then they could dissolve faster and the feeder would need to be adjusted accordingly (if possible). Other than that, the water quality should be the same since the chlorine is chlorine (and Trichlor is Trichlor, etc.). I'm not disputing that there may be some inferior off-brands out there, but it was news to me that the same brands with the seemingly same packaging and ingredients contents are different, if this is indeed the case.

[EDIT] I see that Pathfinder just posted and clarified the issue. In Canada, there are separate lines (brands) carried at the big-box stores than at the pool stores. In that case, I could see where a manufacturer could distinguish these brands by quality. It seems that this may occur less frequently in the U.S. from what I've seen in the big-box and hardware stores I've been in. And he's right that I was the one who brought up Tri-Chlor tabs in the context of special tabs that have unique binders (BioGuard Smart Sticks). [END-EDIT]

hummmm could it be that I was telling the truth.... ...look at tabs...some have as much as 5% binders or fillers...check em out at Lowe's, Wal mart...what we carry has 1% and it is a conditioner something you actually need in your water...these are pool tabs I am speaking about not spa...but my first post mentioned both pool and spa.....