New Keys Backyard Tub - Pump/electrical Issue?!? Please Help!

[lys]

Hi lys, I think your most recent post had significant info. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen you mention the IC error code before. I went to Balboa's site, the IC code means that a potential freeze problem has been detected and ice in the system has been detected. 44°F (6.7°C) or Lower has been Detected at the Lowest Temp Sensor, or the Aux Freeze Switch has Closed, and All Pumps and Blower are Activated. All Pumps and Blower are ON for at least 4 Minutes After Temp is 45°F (7.2°C) or Above at the Sensors, or when the Aux Freeze Switch Opens. This is an Operational Message, Not an Error Indication. Either wait for the Potential Freeze Condition to End, or contact your Dealer or Service Organization. Sounds like maybe you could have warmed things up with the water still in the tub and things would have been operational after it warmed above 45 degrees. Sounds like a weather situation, not a brand related issue. Of course the click, to me, sounds like a wiring problem in addition to everything else. Maybe the freeze situation caused something to trip or maybe it's also wired wrong. Although, if you told the phone tech. about the IC code, he should have been able to tell you what the situation was. Did you mention this? You seemed more focused on the 12 reading than the IC code here, but your phone conversation might have been different. If I were you I would contact balboa by email or phone and tell them what's up. They are so helpful, I just love Balboa. If you are worried about what your new spa has been through, return it. Personally, I wouldn't be at all concerned about replacing it with the same spa. Good Luck.

I think the IC condition was caused by the ICE in the pump itself. Makes sense it shut it down. We'd added some hot water direct from the hot water heater, just to help speed things along, though the other water was certainly cold. And it wasn't a freezy day when we tried it. The other thing is the jets didn't move water, no noise from the pump and the heater was cold to touch even after we shut it off.

I think you're right though about there being two issues. And I am definitely hoping the pump will run once it's powered up. I think it just shut its cold little self off to prevent damage. Still makes me think that could blow a fuse or something and cause the electric problem? or, or, or? I don't know! Feel like my head's spinning!

Ooh! Do you have a number or contact info for Balboa? Or email? I'd love to get that from you!

I tried calling a Balboa support # earlier and went through their options. Got to the point where it asked if I was a spa owner, and a friendly message said they couldn't help and I should hang up and contact my dealer. Maybe I tried to contact them through the wrong "door." It is definitely a Balboa system. Oh! And a model # for the panel I haven't been able to Google or find a manual on: 54358 - it also says it's from 2006.

Thanks Tiny!

[lys]

Wow Miss you have one hot topic! When you fix enough stuff you get to see some really bizarre problems... it's worse when it's something obscured. This should not be the case with electricity, although performing a load test may be required, and it's difficult to load up a 240V drop (read: plug in a major appliance etc.!) Now is the time we hope you didn't also get a "discount" electrician because you need to escalate this request to his Management or threaten to call for a second opinion, which you will bill back to that first company... the one that could not deliver on what you paid for... a working electrical connection. The Keyes Spa guy should have felt his own liability because if *I* called for a second opinion and it turned out the connection was 100% then I would charge that back to Keyes... on the basis he refused to accept responsibility until you proved otherwise, so when you do prove otherwise he picks up the tab as he was proven negligent in holding up his end of the contract to deliver a working spa, and refused to perform due diligence.

Load testing your connection could be achieved with a portable device requiring 220-240. Ever seen one of those huge (blower) heaters? ...like they would use on a construction site? The Keyes guy may have been speaking from experience, and it may have been your electrician who was being too stubborn to double check his work... even when it all looked operational. It does sound like a loose connection that fails under load, and other people's experience wiring these specialized GFCI spa breakers have said it doesn't exactly work like the same residential GFCI wiring. Good luck with your second opinion today... You *will* be sipping that mahgerita in a bubbly tub soon enough. Hey and look at all the friends you made! Party at Lys'!

Ha ! No kidding! if we ever get this puppy running - margaritas for everybody!! And yes, what a neat group there is here! That at least has been a great aspect to this whole silly thing.

So, I only know this much more about our electricity if this info helps or matters at all: (NOTE: Here's me again passing on information I only barely understand.) We have a "200 AMP service to our house" and it's not very big - not a lot of extra appliances, etc. so that should be plenty. There's a sparkling (not really - it's black) brand new dedicated 50 amp breaker in place at the box, and then there's the ugly GFCI thing in its own new box. 'Tis all wired with some "6 wire" which is what they required and all wires test "hot" and the GFCI breaker will trips when tested and induced to do so but not when it's not told to, so that sounds happy. But that is the extent of any electrical info I have gathered. I hate that I'm so clueless.

Hopefully this other electrician guy will show today and get us some answers. I'll ask him about the testing under a load thing too. Thanks for the info.

I think I love the Biggz idea of faxing results to Keyes if elec. is okay and yours is a fantastic idea to pass on the second bill to Keyes. Likewise, if the original electrician is wrong - oh, he's SO VERY MUCH getting clocked. HA!

[TinyBubbles]

Ok lys, this is what I did. I went to www. balboa-instruments.com. Go to the contact us section and the bottom left should have a list of email links. Pick the one for tech. support. They will need the model number to help you. I probably would make it short and sweet. Maybe just say you tried to start up the spa and what messages you got and that there was a click and nothing. They were really helpful with my questions, but I had an operational spa. Maybe your situation is beyond what they help with. It seems like ice in your lines and heater would cause a multitude of problems. Obviously with ice you wouldn't be getting flow to the pumps so there is no way they could prime. When you heard the click everything then went dead? Was the gfci tripped or did the spa just completely shut down?

[TinyBubbles]

Oh and <ahem> if you go back into C0stco in person they have Piper-Heidsieck (French) Champagne for ~$28 a bottle which is a good deal. If your budget allows you can certainly splurge, but experience says you can't beat a chilly bottle of Piper with anything less than Dom Perignon. If $13 is more your price range Piper also makes a nice American champagne... Piper-Sonoma. If you get this thing going today you WILL want to celebrate... a mahgerita may not be sufficient and I may have to defer to TinyBubbles recommendation of champagne brand ...I mean, after all, she is "tiny bubbles"

Well it's off to Costco for me, to try your recommendations. I have a fridge thoroughly stocked with Martini and Rossi Asti, which is our current favorite. Pair this with some plump strawberries dipped in dark chocolate and some 101 degree water and I'm a happy camper.

[soakme]

OK, if the dryer is working well, any wiring problem is probably confined to the hot tub branch... do a google search and try to find the balboa_service_manual.pdf... this has step by step instructions for checking the wiring... also note that you need to know whether you are supposed to have a dedicated 240v circuit or a convertible 120/240 circuit... these are wired differently...

Soakme, the instructions said "the spa should be located near a power source capable of supplying 220 to 240 volts AC power. It must be wired directly into a grounded circuit with a 50-amp circuit breaker and a GFCI capable of carrying 50 amps. No other appliances should be on the same circuit". So I guess that means it's dedicated.

lys, I know this is a dumb question, but do you currently have water in the tub and did you have a full tub when this all started? I appears that it's pretty cold where you are. Biggz

I would also take dedicated to mean that the spa is the only thing on the circuit... however, the Balboa service manual also indicates that the neutral wire may be absent on a dedicated circuit... does the Keys manual show a neutral connection between the GFCI and the spa pack? I suppose on some spas the motors could be 120v and the heater 240v, so you would want the neutral... a fully 240v system might show it not connected...

[lys]

Ok lys, this is what I did. I went to www. balboa-instruments.com. Go to the contact us section and the bottom left should have a list of email links. Pick the one for tech. support. They will need the model number to help you. I probably would make it short and sweet. Maybe just say you tried to start up the spa and what messages you got and that there was a click and nothing. They were really helpful with my questions, but I had an operational spa. Maybe your situation is beyond what they help with. It seems like ice in your lines and heater would cause a multitude of problems. Obviously with ice you wouldn't be getting flow to the pumps so there is no way they could prime. When you heard the click everything then went dead? Was the gfci tripped or did the spa just completely shut down?

I think it's rather funny that you think I COULD keep it short and sweet! But I will sure try. THANK you for the info!!!

Nope, the spa never turned on in the first place. There was a click when we pushed the button pump button to start the pump after the PR came on. That's the click. No firing up of pump, just a click sound that comes from the panel - not even over by the pump. Click in the panel and nothing more than that. The thermometer did it's thing, reading the temperature and all, but no pump action. No GFCI trippage, no shutting down of anything. Just nothing powering up. So obviously enough juice coming from the wires to run the controls, just not enough to initiate pump. I'd have thought dead pump, but there's that pesky #12 thing, which loops back to wiring...

Hope that makes any sense!

Thanks for the Balboa info, Tiny! You're terrific. I will go shoot them a succinct email them and report back.

[lys]

OK, if the dryer is working well, any wiring problem is probably confined to the hot tub branch... do a google search and try to find the balboa_service_manual.pdf... this has step by step instructions for checking the wiring... also note that you need to know whether you are supposed to have a dedicated 240v circuit or a convertible 120/240 circuit... these are wired differently...

Soakme, the instructions said "the spa should be located near a power source capable of supplying 220 to 240 volts AC power. It must be wired directly into a grounded circuit with a 50-amp circuit breaker and a GFCI capable of carrying 50 amps. No other appliances should be on the same circuit". So I guess that means it's dedicated.

lys, I know this is a dumb question, but do you currently have water in the tub and did you have a full tub when this all started? I appears that it's pretty cold where you are. Biggz

I would also take dedicated to mean that the spa is the only thing on the circuit... however, the Balboa service manual also indicates that the neutral wire may be absent on a dedicated circuit... does the Keys manual show a neutral connection between the GFCI and the spa pack? I suppose on some spas the motors could be 120v and the heater 240v, so you would want the neutral... a fully 240v system might show it not connected...

It is dedicated and all by itself on the circuit. I also know the neutral wire is connected because there was a copper ground, a white (neutral, right?) a black and a red. Any more electric knowledge has not managed to wedge itself in my head. Sorry!

Ooh! And I did look at a service manual from Balboa the other day but it was for a different model unit. I'll try again. Will go contact Balboa now per Tiny's instructions. Thanks!

[biggz]

I would also take dedicated to mean that the spa is the only thing on the circuit... however, the Balboa service manual also indicates that the neutral wire may be absent on a dedicated circuit... does the Keys manual show a neutral connection between the GFCI and the spa pack? I suppose on some spas the motors could be 120v and the heater 240v, so you would want the neutral... a fully 240v system might show it not connected...

soakme, You obviously have experience with electrical wiring. Here's the link to wiring the tub from the Keys pre-delivery documents. Go to page 8 to see the wiring. Maybe you'll be able to see something that will make sense of this situation.

http://www.keysbackyard.com/files/spapredelguide.pdf

I hope you find something. I'm too scare too fool around with electricity myself

[TinyBubbles]

ok lys, that makes more sense. I must have been reading wrong or skipping over facts. I thought the whole tub was shutting down. Your pump clicking and not priming definately points to low voltage. Of course, you have the added situation of ice. Could ice have been in the motor preventing the impeller from turning and thus overheating the pump? If you aren't planning to return the spa, I'd refill it (unless your current temps prevent this). How many times did you try to start it up?

[lys]

A quick update!!! Electrician is "5 minutes" away, so that's happy news!

More importantly, Home Depot seriously ROCKS! I called to cancel the return and they were so helpful. Told me NOT to hire an independent spa tech to fix it, or it could void the warranty. EEK! They are setting up with Keys as we speak to get a tech out here to fix whatever may be amiss. AND they are sending an order for "financial compensation" to make up for this whole thing.

How NICE!

So, either way - via new electrician or Keys tech - there's a light at the end of the tunnel and MAYBE even heated bubbly water in sight! Woo hoo!

[wireman]

Make them replace it. The pump was frozen when you got it. Probably damaged something. Water in a tub delivered in freezing temps is not acceptable.

[TinyBubbles]

That is great news Lys. Kudos to you for calling Home Depot. I've given them alot of business because they stand behind their products and work. When putting granite countertops in our kitchen and baths, I turned to them. While there are many companies around that install them, I wanted to be sure I had recourse if there was a problem or if there was damage done to my home during installation. Things went perfectly. If indeed you have a damaged pump, it should be no problem switching it out and getting you on your way to soaking. Keep us all informed, glad things are looking up.

[B0Darc]

That is great news Lys. Kudos to you for calling Home Depot. I've given them alot of business because they stand behind their products and work. When putting granite countertops in our kitchen and baths, I turned to them. While there are many companies around that install them, I wanted to be sure I had recourse if there was a problem or if there was damage done to my home during installation. Things went perfectly. If indeed you have a damaged pump, it should be no problem switching it out and getting you on your way to soaking. Keep us all informed, glad things are looking up.

Kudos to the Hommie Depot. When I had my spa electric installed I asked who did the installs for their Keys spas and used that company... for the same reasons. The older you get the more things you have seen go haywire, so it can pay to have some backing on these type deals. Ya think HommesDepot read this thread? Ya think Mr. Grumpy Grumpington who told you it wasn't his problem (Service Mgr.?) still has a job? Internet forums wield a wee bit of power... people read this stuff, and it can work like advertising... for good or bad. Companies are paying attention... employees are paying attention. Best wishes for a speedy resolution.

Bo "I misspeel stuff so it doesn't pop up on the g00gle" Darc

[Chas]

Woo Hoo!

[Roger]

Woo Hoo!

And even with a new pump, until you start moving and heating water you won't know if theres any other damage. And you still may not know untill its to operating temp.

[lys]

A belated update. (Had a family emergency yesterday or would have written sooner.)

So the problem was something wrong in the panel to the house itself, not the GFCI or wiring or hot tub itself. Second electrician fixed something in the house panel and away we go. Tub turned on and everything seems to work fine, despite the inital ice. It's holding its temp pretty well and so far so good. No noticable leaks, though I haven't pulled apart the panel again to double check. Will do that in the next day or so.

SO! I called Home Depot again and told them thanks for support but nevermind! Told them that they did NOT need to have Keys fix anything and that they certainly did NOT need to compensate me for anything, so that's all handled.

Initial electrician refunded for unnecessary extra expense and second guy didn't charge much. He was a neat guy. When we add on a garage, we'll use HIM! 40 years' experience and an engineering degree w/the electric... Wish I'd known about him in the first place. <sheepish grin>

So, as previously suggested, I'm eating crow for brekky, lunch and dinner today!! To plagarize a bit from "Bubba" (Forrest Gump): Many ways to eat it ...barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, sautee it. THere's crow-kabobs, crow creole, crow gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple crow, lemon crow, coconut crow, pepper crow, crow soup, crow stew, crow salad, crow and potatoes, crow burger, crow sandwich. All on the menu. Tastes okay with a margarita as expected though.

So definitely time to celebrate. More importantly time for many thanks to EVERYONE here for all the insight, assistance and added perspective. If left to my own emotion-driven devices I'd have really made a mess of things, would have sent back a perfectly useable tub and probably had Keys employees hiring a hit man...

Thanks to you all and happy soaking. <dorky grin>

[TinyBubbles]

Lys, thank you for being a big enough person to post the outcome. We all make mistakes. I'm sure your panic was fueled by the expense of a spa. There is nothing wrong with trusting an electrician who did work for you in the past. I am just glad you have it all sorted out and have a working spa! It's good to know that the tech at Keys was giving you the correct info. after all. So...........have you gotten to take a soak? I really am happy that everything worked out for you.

[biggz]

lys, It takes a big person to admit when they're wrong. My hat's off too you. Yeah, I've eaten a little crow in my life. As I said before they're great little tubs for people new to tubbing and the 3rd largest manufacturer in the USA, so they do have some experience in what their doing. You may need to add some insulation since you live in a colder area, but there plenty of topics on the board that have excellent examples on how to do it. It will give your husband something to do since you did buy him such a nice holiday treat. Please post pics when you have time. We'll be here for you when you start to have water issues. Post them on the Hot tub chemistry side. Those guys that frequently post over there are amazing with the information they share. I hope your family emergency has been resolved for the best. Soak long and prosper.

[Chas]

I don't see you as "wrong." I'm glad you got this all sorted out. Of course, I tried to tell you all along that the problem was in your main panel (kidding).

You stuck to it with electricians - and met a good one for future use to boot!

Now -

Go soak yourself!

[B0Darc]

Stick around Lys! You are very funny... I *will* be stealing that Forrest Gump crow bit... that's good stuff. All of your stuff was good. Congrats on the Happy Dance! Oh and if you like Margheritas try 1/2 Mango juice, 1/2 Ginger *beer* (use something strong like Maine Root, not just ginger ale) and 1/2 half Vodka/Rum/or TaKillYa... or you could just do like TinyB does and mix 1/2 Grey Goose with 1/2 Grey Goose and then 1/2 Grey Goose... then open the jar of olives and smell them...and shake/pour

{{group hugs!}}

[biggz]

Stick around Lys! You are very funny... I *will* be stealing that Forrest Gump crow bit... that's good stuff. All of your stuff was good. Congrats on the Happy Dance! Oh and if you like Margheritas try 1/2 Mango juice, 1/2 Ginger *beer* (use something strong like Maine Root, not just ginger ale) and 1/2 half Vodka/Rum/or TaKillYa... or you could just do like TinyB does and mix 1/2 Grey Goose with 1/2 Grey Goose and then 1/2 Grey Goose... then open the jar of olives and smell them...and shake/pour

{{group hugs!}}

Bo, what kind of drink is that called? Is that a Marg? It sounds gooooooood.

[B0Darc]

Bo, what kind of drink is that called? Is that a Marg? It sounds gooooooood.

Well the rest of us can't grow oranges in our back yard (heh) and now that orange juice is twice as expensive as gasoline I have discovered the joys of Mango juice. You can find it in the Spanish foods aisle, and it actually seems to have more nutrition than orange juice (lotsa vitamin A and C) It was a drink featured on the F00d Network, so I didn't invent it, and you may even be able to order it at a bar. It's called a Mañana-tini. It tastes awesome but is very close to being a girlie umbrella drink, so only order in close company, or mix at home, lest ye Man-card get yanked (ARrrgh! <Pirate voice>).

If you're watching sugar/calories you can substitute diyet (the word d1et gets filtered!) ginger beer(Pirate runs for exit)... or just make 'em strong Nothing is more thirst quenching... even without any alcohol [chuckling] TinyB recalled them as nana-tinis ...that is closer to the truth, this *is* something your Nana would drink, but don't let that stop you from trying them. I make them for everyone, and while many wrinkle their face at the recipe ("what the hell are you making?!") they 100% come back for more. The trick is a strong ginger beer... which you add *after* shaking ice/juice/alc lest ye be swabbing Mañana-tinis off tha deck Mate! ...electrical issue? what? spa problems? Mañana-tini... oh yeah

[wireman]

Was your first electrician licensed?

[mark2550]

Glad to see everything worked out, now start enjoying your tub all good things come to us that await

[Coastside Spas]

Sorry but after reading this post and seeing that all attempts to troubleshoot this problem failed to assess the problem, I had to throw in my 2 cents worth. I am a Keys contracted repair center and your initial posting waved a big red flag. You mentioned the need to read the codes initially displayed on the diplay during power up. You stated that code 12 was displayed, but yet your system is hooked up to 240VAC. This immediatedly tells me that your tub is NOT receiving 240 VAC. This indicates that your tub is NOT wired correctly. The "12" code displayed as the last code is not based on dip switches, rather it is based on the source power it is actually connected to. Any other tub you buy will be subjected to the same wiring, so be sure you have this THOROUGHLY inspected PRIOR to hooking up your new spa of choice. I have learned in my 20+ years of service and repair NOT to trust ANY electrician's statements regarding their wiring without my own inspection back to source. I have yet to find a situation like this on a new tub, that was NOT due to a wiring issue.

Here are some suggestions for your electrician:

1. Check to available power at the terminals in the spa control box. be sure you actually have 240VAC available between the red and black terminals

If this is a 4 wire circuit, be sure to check power between the red and black for 240VAC and for 120VAC between the red and white terminals and the black and white terminals. If this tests out ok, then the problem is the spa.

2. If 240VAC is NOT available at the spa, then the problem has to be upline., so check the next switching point. This could be your GFCI sub-panel, especially if it is Connecticut Electric which use a 3-4 pole contactor which I have repeatedly found highly suspectible to failure.

3. I have found more often than not that the simple task of wiring a gfci breaker in a 4 wire system, leaves many a licensed electrician confused and bewildered when it doesn't seem to work. Always make sure the gfci white pig tail goes to the ground bar and the white (neutral) is connected to the load neutral terminal on the gfci breaker. This situation will cause immediate GFCI tripping.

Good luck and feel free to contact me.