lys

A belated update. (Had a family emergency yesterday or would have written sooner.) So the problem was something wrong in the panel to the house itself, not the GFCI or wiring or hot tub itself. Second electrician fixed something in the house panel and away we go. Tub turned on and everything seems to work fine, despite the inital ice. It's holding its temp pretty well and so far so good. No noticable leaks, though I haven't pulled apart the panel again to double check. Will do that in the next day or so. SO! I called Home Depot again and told them thanks for support but nevermind! Told them that they did NOT need to have Keys fix anything and that they certainly did NOT need to compensate me for anything, so that's all handled. Initial electrician refunded for unnecessary extra expense and second guy didn't charge much. He was a neat guy. When we add on a garage, we'll use HIM! 40 years' experience and an engineering degree w/the electric... Wish I'd known about him in the first place. <sheepish grin> So, as previously suggested, I'm eating crow for brekky, lunch and dinner today!! To plagarize a bit from "Bubba" (Forrest Gump): Many ways to eat it ...barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, sautee it. THere's crow-kabobs, crow creole, crow gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple crow, lemon crow, coconut crow, pepper crow, crow soup, crow stew, crow salad, crow and potatoes, crow burger, crow sandwich. All on the menu. Tastes okay with a margarita as expected though. So definitely time to celebrate. More importantly time for many thanks to EVERYONE here for all the insight, assistance and added perspective. If left to my own emotion-driven devices I'd have really made a mess of things, would have sent back a perfectly useable tub and probably had Keys employees hiring a hit man... Thanks to you all and happy soaking. <dorky grin>

A quick update!!! Electrician is "5 minutes" away, so that's happy news! More importantly, Home Depot seriously ROCKS! I called to cancel the return and they were so helpful. Told me NOT to hire an independent spa tech to fix it, or it could void the warranty. EEK! They are setting up with Keys as we speak to get a tech out here to fix whatever may be amiss. AND they are sending an order for "financial compensation" to make up for this whole thing. How NICE! So, either way - via new electrician or Keys tech - there's a light at the end of the tunnel and MAYBE even heated bubbly water in sight! Woo hoo!

Soakme, the instructions said "the spa should be located near a power source capable of supplying 220 to 240 volts AC power. It must be wired directly into a grounded circuit with a 50-amp circuit breaker and a GFCI capable of carrying 50 amps. No other appliances should be on the same circuit". So I guess that means it's dedicated. lys, I know this is a dumb question, but do you currently have water in the tub and did you have a full tub when this all started? I appears that it's pretty cold where you are. Biggz I would also take dedicated to mean that the spa is the only thing on the circuit... however, the Balboa service manual also indicates that the neutral wire may be absent on a dedicated circuit... does the Keys manual show a neutral connection between the GFCI and the spa pack? I suppose on some spas the motors could be 120v and the heater 240v, so you would want the neutral... a fully 240v system might show it not connected... It is dedicated and all by itself on the circuit. I also know the neutral wire is connected because there was a copper ground, a white (neutral, right?) a black and a red. Any more electric knowledge has not managed to wedge itself in my head. Sorry! Ooh! And I did look at a service manual from Balboa the other day but it was for a different model unit. I'll try again. Will go contact Balboa now per Tiny's instructions. Thanks!

I think it's rather funny that you think I COULD keep it short and sweet! But I will sure try. THANK you for the info!!! Nope, the spa never turned on in the first place. There was a click when we pushed the button pump button to start the pump after the PR came on. That's the click. No firing up of pump, just a click sound that comes from the panel - not even over by the pump. Click in the panel and nothing more than that. The thermometer did it's thing, reading the temperature and all, but no pump action. No GFCI trippage, no shutting down of anything. Just nothing powering up. So obviously enough juice coming from the wires to run the controls, just not enough to initiate pump. I'd have thought dead pump, but there's that pesky #12 thing, which loops back to wiring... Hope that makes any sense! Thanks for the Balboa info, Tiny! You're terrific. I will go shoot them a succinct email them and report back.

Ha ! No kidding! if we ever get this puppy running - margaritas for everybody!! And yes, what a neat group there is here! That at least has been a great aspect to this whole silly thing. So, I only know this much more about our electricity if this info helps or matters at all: (NOTE: Here's me again passing on information I only barely understand.) We have a "200 AMP service to our house" and it's not very big - not a lot of extra appliances, etc. so that should be plenty. There's a sparkling (not really - it's black) brand new dedicated 50 amp breaker in place at the box, and then there's the ugly GFCI thing in its own new box. 'Tis all wired with some "6 wire" which is what they required and all wires test "hot" and the GFCI breaker will trips when tested and induced to do so but not when it's not told to, so that sounds happy. But that is the extent of any electrical info I have gathered. I hate that I'm so clueless. Hopefully this other electrician guy will show today and get us some answers. I'll ask him about the testing under a load thing too. Thanks for the info. I think I love the Biggz idea of faxing results to Keyes if elec. is okay and yours is a fantastic idea to pass on the second bill to Keyes. Likewise, if the original electrician is wrong - oh, he's SO VERY MUCH getting clocked. HA!

I think the IC condition was caused by the ICE in the pump itself. Makes sense it shut it down. We'd added some hot water direct from the hot water heater, just to help speed things along, though the other water was certainly cold. And it wasn't a freezy day when we tried it. The other thing is the jets didn't move water, no noise from the pump and the heater was cold to touch even after we shut it off. I think you're right though about there being two issues. And I am definitely hoping the pump will run once it's powered up. I think it just shut its cold little self off to prevent damage. Still makes me think that could blow a fuse or something and cause the electric problem? or, or, or? I don't know! Feel like my head's spinning! Ooh! Do you have a number or contact info for Balboa? Or email? I'd love to get that from you! I tried calling a Balboa support # earlier and went through their options. Got to the point where it asked if I was a spa owner, and a friendly message said they couldn't help and I should hang up and contact my dealer. Maybe I tried to contact them through the wrong "door." It is definitely a Balboa system. Oh! And a model # for the panel I haven't been able to Google or find a manual on: 54358 - it also says it's from 2006. Thanks Tiny!

Soakme, the instructions said "the spa should be located near a power source capable of supplying 220 to 240 volts AC power. It must be wired directly into a grounded circuit with a 50-amp circuit breaker and a GFCI capable of carrying 50 amps. No other appliances should be on the same circuit". So I guess that means it's dedicated. lys, I know this is a dumb question, but do you currently have water in the tub and did you have a full tub when this all started? I appears that it's pretty cold where you are. Biggz Not a dumb question! When we first got it hooked up, we filled per instructions then tried the priming sequence. It did it's 137, 61 (I think) 24 and 12. There was also an IC error reading, then the PR and --F. Click in the circuit and no flow from the jets or pump noise. So re-read manual, which said if it shows 12 to call them. Day before X-mas and no answer. So we pumped the water out with a pump and vaccume towel dried. When hubby went to drain the pump he couldn't unscrew the drain plugs. Thought, what the....? Opened up the pipe that goes down into the pump and that's when we saw the ice - there was a good 2-3 inch ring of ice there up out of the pump into the pipe - if that makes any sense. Couldn't get the drain open because it was frozen solid. So we took two space heaters and stuck them under the cabinet, tented it with blankets and tarps to keep the heat in. Several hours later - I think at least 5-6 - that's when the unmeasured water showed up in the foot area, drains opened in the pump and we vaccumed all the water out. We left the heaters running through the night and the next day. We had the inside surface of the tub really warm - which only made me wish it worked more. <dorky grin> So I'm sure there's nothing left in there now.

lys, I don't think your being dishonest at all. I really want to see you in hot water like the rest of us. It could have been 20 gallons or close to that. I do think your going in the right direction to have another electrician check the work as a 1st step. As I said, if he doesn't find anything wrong with the initial installation, call Keys. Why waste time and money with an independent tech. Have the electrician write a brief note on his letterhead verifying that the wiring is done correctly, fax it to there office and demand that they send their tech to check the panel and the pump. If the tech finds a problem he'll let them know and they will ship the necessary parts to you and have him return to install them. It's unfortunate that you found this out after accepting delivery. You could have rejected the delivery if you knew there may have been problems and they would have sent another tub. Again I'm sorry if I offended you. That's not my intention. I know I would be mad as hell if I went through what your going through. I would have put a diaper on and jumped in my car like the astronaut. Oh no, no, no!! You did not offend me at ALL Biggz!!!!! You've been terrific. I GREATLY appreciate the perspective! When something like this is this so confuzzling and infuriating it's hard to maintain any clarity. In this whole thing I've not ever been quite sure I'm understanding thoroughly or being understood. Anyway, you've made some excellent points and please know I do appreciate them. I'm not even the LEAST bit offended and certainly don't mind you, or anyone, pointing out a perspective I've missed or that I've acted irrationally or over reacted...! (Who me? ) I know this about me, so no worries. Love the astronaut reference, BTW. Too funny! Again, excellent suggestion. Hoping electrician makes it here today. Snow quit so maybe! Will update when I know. And really, I do thank you! So a great idea to have the electricians info faxed to Keys. I'd have never thought of that.

Thanks very much for the info and perspective! I do appreciate it.

THanks for the idea. We don't notice any other problems - three girls at home so the dryer runs ridiculously often - and house is pretty new. Also dedicated circuit for the hot tub if that matters. <SHRUG> Thank you for the idea though!

Thanks for the info Tiny. Our control panel comes up , but something in the circuit board itself clicks rather than firing the pump. No jets or pump or heater. Just the little readings on the control panel. I'll pass it on your info to second electrician when he comes - weather permitting - tomorrow. Of course it's snowing and snowing... Thanks again for the input! I appreciate your taking the time to pass on the info.

Oh! I think I'm just not being very clear!! And I'm CERTAINLY willing to eat crow when necessary - I'd love some with a margarita in a working hot tub!! Beleive me I'd be thrilled to fine out it's something simple and reparable. It'd eat crow flambe and or crow a la mode! I just want the thing to work. And yes I was probably a total basket case after several calls to Keys and being told over and over again that I couldn't possibly have a problem with their equipment. To clarify though, NO, I did NOT exaggerate the water at all. What I said was that I didn't MEASURE it. It could very well have been 20 gallons! I think probably more We thawed the plumbing out and the entire center of the spa where your feet go was filled up to the inlet/outlet drains. I'd still say at least 20 - just can't be sure because I am horrible at math and all things spatial. But that foot section is what maybe a circle 3 feet across (? GUESSING) and it was at least 4 inches deep - again bottom of the outlet. So maybe someone with rudimentry math skills would be able to figure out a gallon estimate. If it's not 20 - fine dish the crow - but it seems like a lot MORE than should have been there and was most certainly frozen solid in the bottom of the tub. (Pump side down - so in the pump and pipes) We had two heaters running under the tub for hours. Again, I'm not exaggerating or trying to be dishonest, I just super suck at math. I don't have a clue as to when it froze - I'm telling you I don't think they ever drained it. I agree it's not logical to think it could have frozen in Texas. I'm not sure they get freezing weather there. I DO think what happened was they left water in - someone didn't open the little drain valve on the pump when it was crated or something, I don't know - but however it got there, it all settled in the bottom and was absolutely frozen solid when it hit Colorado or anywhere in between. It was subzero when they delivered it to my house and had been all week before we could set the thing. (This also made me wonder if they sold us a refurbished tub rather than new? DO they do that? The date on the control box says 2006. Maybe it just sat in the factory that long.) Again, I do not know. I just know it was frozen. I also know that I probably didn't explain things about the wiring. After the error message (12 as opposed to the 24) pops up, it does go to PR mode and the --F reading. Then it reads the temp. It just does not proceed to pump water or heat up from there. Something in the panel clicks, but the pump does not turn on. Again though, the GFCI doesn't trip. The wires are all hot coming to the tub. It is also on its own dedicated breaker from the box at the house. No other draw made on 6 wire - everything's overkill. Yada, yada, yada. I don't know if faulty wiring could do that. It would be the very easiest solution if the electrician did miss something! And frankly I'd be thrilled if that were the case. So after all this what I'm wondering is this: The pump came frozen, which was obviously not apparent right off the bat. We got the error 12 message and also the IC message. Then the PR and --F and a click and nothing. So if the pump was frozen, maybe the hot tub TRIED to run and it blew a fuse or soemthing to save the pump? And now that the pump is no longer embedded in ice, which would certainly act as a major obstruction, if the proper fuse were replaced maybe it can run again...? Also if they DID test it at the factory (and the thus-far-unmeasured amount of water left in aboard suggests they did) and it assumedly worked when they sent it, doesn't the freeze a pump/fry-something scenario make sense that their factory reading of perfection is no longer valid? And yes, Mr. Keys supervisor guy might have been completely correct with his info, but I could not get him to see that there MIGHT be more going on here than the wiring. So yeah, at this point I am getting more help. The nearest spa tech folk are too busy to come out indefinitely. So getting another electrician to come test the panel and other guys work, and if he can't fix it there's another spa guy further away I'll see if I can get out. And if anybody finds something major I'll call Keys and try to convince Mr. Keys Supervisor to send a tech. Or I'll just fill the dumb thing with goldfish and re-up my membership at the hot springs. :-)

D1, Hot Springs, Sundance, Marquis, and Jacuzzi are probably the most recommended. There's a few others, but that will get you off to a good start. If the price scares you (and it will after buying from Home Depot ), keep in mind many of the high end spa makers have lower priced companion lines without all the bells and whistles. But be sure to wet test this time, and check out those dealer references. THANKS for the info!! Very good to know! Think we'll try the independent tech and if it's not worth repairing, we'll definitely look at the above. Yes, I know HD was a lot cheaper than the name brands. If you factor in hassles though, I think they'd be worth it. So, I guess we'll see how it plays out. Thank you again though for all the info and help. I really appreciate your time!

I always try and bring all new components with me for any brand I am working on. And I have flex, PVC, fittings and electrical stuff in the van. Being an independent it is a bit more difficult but depending where the call came from, direct or through a dealer I usualy pick up a few things before I make my appointment. I stock 4-5 different pumps and a couple generic controls and heaters and if the HP isn't right on the generic stuff I may still install a pump and advise. Thank you all so much for the info and words o' wisdom. Maybe I was working more from anger than logic w/the return? I'm going to call the dealer nearest us and see if their guys can fix it. I think it's time for a neutral party that won't care who was "right" the electrician or the company. Maybe their tech can sort it out. Then return if he thinks it was sent w/too much damage to make it worth the fix? I keep getting scared we'll mutilate the thing trying to tip it back up on the pallet. Anyway, you're probably all very sick of me but I REALLY appreciate all your time and information. Thanks!!

That's very, very valid and is defintely what I asked for! I repeatedly asked him to send someone out. He kept saying there was nothing wrong. Finally he said he'd send a guy out but that he was charging me for the visit even though it's under "warranty." He also said the tech would NOT bring the pump even though he said it was likely damaged. That they would ship out later in the month. Then what? What if his tech shows, I pay for that whether or not they get it working. They ship the pump and we install. What if more damage was there from freezing? More fun calls to customer service? Do I wait another month for them to fix that? Will they stand by that or will they blame the weather or the shipping agent or an act of God, or? If it was only the panel, or only one issue I'd be more inclined to let them deal with it. But as there are at LEAST two problems that we know of - and as others have said, maybe there are plumbing problems as well. It all made me very leary in dealing with this company. And frankly the customer service was the final straw. The supervisor seemed shocked when I said forget it, I'll just send it back. It wasn't until that moment that he apologized for the rude tech and the problems. Ultimately, do I want to deal with these people down the road when the next problem hits? I've even considered getting a tech from another company - someone on neutral ground - out to see if he/she could fix it and just going from there. That's why I checked here before I went through with the return. I thought maybe there was something I was missing, some switch to flip, some obvious electrician error, some missing peice of the puzzle, someone else with the same problem who could say, oh! Do this! Again though, even if they did fix everything in a timely fashion, where does that leave me down the road? This has just left a bitter taste in my mouth for this company and I'm not sure it's something I want to savor for the next several years.