Added Hot Tub Cover Insulation?

[Nat]

The hot cover I have is a "1.5 Pound" cover. Does this mean that it weighs 1-1/2 pounds per square foot?

Anyway, I was wondering if it is advantageous to add extra insulation to the cover, or move up to a "2 pound" cover in order to save some on electricity usage. This is in Northern Virginia, where I live, it can get down to 15 degrees at night in the winter.

Right now I have two unused king/queen size comfortors that I throw ontop of the cover when precipitation is not predicted. I have no idea if this is even worthwhile. It may even attract critters looking for a nice warm place to nest.

Another thought I have is to get a large 2-inch thick piece of Tyvek type building insulation board and put this ontop of the cover, using bungee cords or something similar.

Also, I was rather preplexed by a caution that appeared in my tub's owner's manual (Tiger River Spas). It said basically, "Do not place plastic drop cloths or tarps over the cover because this can melt the cover's core". Heat buildup? Maybe it prevents chlorine from outgassing through the cover? Strange warning.

Any thoughts? Anyone else add supplemental cover insulation?

Thanks.

--Nate

[Dr. Spa]

That's per cubic foot of foam, not square foot.

1.5 pound foam has an R value of 4.17 at 1 inch think. 2 pound foam is 4.35. I don't think the up grade based solely on increased insulation would be cost effective.

putting clear plastic over the cover will act like a greenhouse in the sun and overheat causing the foam to melt.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

That's per cubic foot of foam, not square foot.

1.5 pound foam has an R value of 4.17 at 1 inch think. 2 pound foam is 4.35. I don't think the up grade based solely on increased insulation would be cost effective.

putting clear plastic over the cover will act like a greenhouse in the sun and overheat causing the foam to melt.

I wouldn't get rid of a perfectly good cover with 1.5# foam to upgrade to the 2#. As Doc showed, the insulating difference is not major. The next time you need a cover though I would upgrade. The 2# will be sturdier and should be less apt to sag but wait until your current cover has seen its day.

[dilauro]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

Now, I know since this was my first month with the Legacy Envision I had some start up problems.

Had to Start/Shutdown/Start/Shutdown several times Then it was playing with the different modes, Standard,

Economy, FC... Then it was what temperature. First at 99, then at 100, then 101, 102...Probaby never let

the machine stay in one setting for more than 3 days.

So, now, I can not imagine that electric bill will be normal.

Can the initial startup and changing settings frequently make that much a difference in electric? My dealer told me

to expect between $40 and $60 as an average.

Anyone living in the CT area, if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear ANY!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

I would not wait. You need to insulate that spa better. Themopane insulation done right can work fine but I've seen a lot of people with your brand having the same issue (and others themopane brands as well). Do a search on this site and you'll find others in the same predicament talking about the methods they used to isualte teh psides and corners.

[dilauro]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

I would not wait. You need to insulate that spa better. Themopane insulation done right can work fine but I've seen a lot of people with your brand having the same issue (and others themopane brands as well). Do a search on this site and you'll find others in the same predicament talking about the methods they used to isualte teh psides and corners.

Thanks I am looking into articles about Themopane insulation

What are your feelings about those water blankets? Will they help?

I've seen several calculators on this site for chemicals, does anyone have something for energy consumption?

[RickJ]

About the best thing you could do to add insulating value to your cover would be to install a floating blanket.

http://www.rhtubs.com/store/float.htm

That will probably do more than increasing the insulation from 1.5 lb to 2 lb.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Thanks I am looking into articles about Themopane insulation

What are your feelings about those water blankets? Will they help?

I've seen several calculators on this site for chemicals, does anyone have something for energy consumption?

Certainly that will help but if your spa is not well insulaetd on the sides and corners it'll only help so much.

[Dr. Spa]

Or as an analogy, if the walls of your house are made of paper, no matter how well you insulate the roof, it wont make any difference.

[Nat]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

Now, I know since this was my first month with the Legacy Envision I had some start up problems.

Had to Start/Shutdown/Start/Shutdown several times Then it was playing with the different modes, Standard,

Economy, FC... Then it was what temperature. First at 99, then at 100, then 101, 102...Probaby never let

the machine stay in one setting for more than 3 days.

So, now, I can not imagine that electric bill will be normal.

Can the initial startup and changing settings frequently make that much a difference in electric? My dealer told me

to expect between $40 and $60 as an average.

Anyone living in the CT area, if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear ANY!

I can just compare to my first bill that includes a full month of tub use (Northern Virginia), which was just this month. Mine increased about $40. The usage increased by about 400 kilowatts. It appears your electricity rates are near double to mine (I pay about 9.5 cents per KW-Hr.) and your cimate is colder. Your tub may be bigger too. I have a 330 gallon Tiger River Bengal. The multiple start-up fills did not help either. I calculated to raise 330 gallons of water from 60 degrees F. to 100 degrees F. costs me about $3.50 in electricity, assuming no heat loss (which there will be a little). Hopefully your next bill will be a little lower.

--Nate

[dilauro]

Thanks Nate,

Up here, our Electrical rate is about $.17 per Kwh. So its a bit high.

I forgot all about the time it took to go from 50 degrees to 100 degrees. That took me about 12-16 hours to reach.

That had to be an added 'value' in this months bill.

Just trying to rationalize how my next month's bill will not be as high

[Shaamus]

Like others have mentioned, don't get rid of your new cover until you have to. A floating blanket will help out, but your big problem is the insulation around the shell. Thermalpane insulation, unless done perfectly, needs a little help. Just do a search on this forum for some ideas.

[thestallion]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

Now, I know since this was my first month with the Legacy Envision I had some start up problems.

Had to Start/Shutdown/Start/Shutdown several times Then it was playing with the different modes, Standard,

Economy, FC... Then it was what temperature. First at 99, then at 100, then 101, 102...Probaby never let

the machine stay in one setting for more than 3 days.

So, now, I can not imagine that electric bill will be normal.

Can the initial startup and changing settings frequently make that much a difference in electric? My dealer told me

to expect between $40 and $60 as an average.

Anyone living in the CT area, if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear ANY!

I am just wondering but before you purchased your spa...did you do any research ?....I am surprised that so many people buy a spa and than have things happen and come to a forum like this looking for help...doing some investigating before buying is time well spent. Sometimes people get accused of mentioning the same half of dozen or so spa makers on boards like this but the reason is rarely do these brands that get recommended again and again have the issue that you are now facing. Adding the insulation will hopefully help your problem but its not something you should have be doing for a new well made spa...I am not trying to be negative here but really just wondering what lead you to decide on this tub ?.....I am sure you will enjoy it for many years once you get the energy costs in line.

[Nat]

Like others have mentioned, don't get rid of your new cover until you have to. A floating blanket will help out, but your big problem is the insulation around the shell. Thermalpane insulation, unless done perfectly, needs a little help. Just do a search on this forum for some ideas.

Thanks. I think that's good advice.

I have a full foam tub, and in fact, I think its insulated pretty well. I have a habbit of trying to improve on things, and sometimes I think I can actually make things worse!

I also added some fiberglass batting (glass wool insulation) to the pump/heater compartment (there again with my "improvement", I wonder if the extra heat will hurt the pump or circuit board, not so cost saving if so) and added some pipe insulation to the heater hoses. I'll remove this insulation in the spring when it gets over 50 - 60 degrees outside.

I do appreciate all of the responses, though.

My take is that its not a big deal, in my case. I think I'm only talking about $10 or so a month in savings and alot of effort to get it!

--Nate

[biasedhistorian]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

Now, I know since this was my first month with the Legacy Envision I had some start up problems.

Had to Start/Shutdown/Start/Shutdown several times Then it was playing with the different modes, Standard,

Economy, FC... Then it was what temperature. First at 99, then at 100, then 101, 102...Probaby never let

the machine stay in one setting for more than 3 days.

So, now, I can not imagine that electric bill will be normal.

Can the initial startup and changing settings frequently make that much a difference in electric? My dealer told me

to expect between $40 and $60 as an average.

Anyone living in the CT area, if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear ANY!

I am just wondering but before you purchased your spa...did you do any research ?....I am surprised that so many people buy a spa and than have things happen and come to a forum like this looking for help...doing some investigating before buying is time well spent. Sometimes people get accused of mentioning the same half of dozen or so spa makers on boards like this but the reason is rarely do these brands that get recommended again and again have the issue that you are now facing. Adding the insulation will hopefully help your problem but its not something you should have be doing for a new well made spa...I am not trying to be negative here but really just wondering what lead you to decide on this tub ?.....I am sure you will enjoy it for many years once you get the energy costs in line.

Now that is a fair and balanced question. The short answer is...not really. I think a lot of 1st time buyers are not thinking of insulation as their top, or even major, concern. Not because it should not be, but because their attention is focused on the "features" of the tub and how it fits. For example I have been in my friends Cal spa several times figuring what did and did not work for me and this was in the mountains of New Hampshire and not once did I think about how insulated it was. Though it seems at this point that the Legacy line is running on the thin side for insulation there seems to be several inexpensive "fixes" for the insulation issues. Me...I am getting 6 bags of those white peanuts from my good old brother in law's shop for free, so it should improve my bill. I think you have a great question...one that could be it's own thread. I mean from the dealers perspective...is the 1st question from a customer about the insulation? The second...third question?

[dilauro]

My wife and I spent about 4 months investigating different hot tubs. We visited show rooms, got reports, went to people's homes that had them, so overall I believed we had a good knowledge base on which models to chooice from and in what price range.

We settled on the Masterspa Legacy Envision for its features, specifically the layout of the jets which is critical to my spinal problems, since the tub is basically being used for therapeutic reasons.

We read about the different types of insulation, full, blown in, therompane, sheets, etc pros/cons of each. Seemed like different dealers had different views. Bottom line, it almost appears that without spending a lot more (ie > $8K) for a tub there are going to be some insulation concerns.

Next came how to set it up and start to use it. Filling the 330 gallons with cold water and taking it up to 101 degrees was over 12 hours and at 50Amps and at .175 cents kwh that added up. Pluse because of some electrical problems and mis use of buttons, the entire unit had to be shut/started/shut/started 3 or 4 times. Of course, I was playing with settings/temperature until I settled on Standard Mode 102 degrees. I read so many posts about using Economy mode, the Electrical company themselves suggested keeping Standard mode and NOT playing around with the temp, keep it set and dont change it.

The weather has been in the mid 20's and I am using the tub every night for about an hour, so I am enjoying it.

assumptions:

1) Initial start electrical costs (bringing water up to temp, different settings ,etc) was a one time cost

2) Altering the settings daily increased electrical costs

3) Using the tub 7 days a week in 20 degree weather will increase cost

Future:

1) Look to add some internal insulation (therompane?)

2) Adding a water blanket

3) Come warmer weather it should not cost as much

Did we know everything we needed to know before hand? NO, We tried, we looked, we at least felt we were not blind going into the purchase. My view is its here now, how can it be optimzed...

Thanks, there have been so many good ideas that have been shared on this site, I appreciate it

[thestallion]

I appreciate your answer. I guess my point is on a boards like this one. The maker you chose is one of the more debated makers in the market and for me If I was looking for a product and saw as much good things but and equal amount of negative things spoken about a product and I had lots of other choices I would stay away from them. I think sometimes most of us want to be to polite and not tell someone flat out stay from a particular manufacture, when maybe we should. I am sure once you get some more insulation in your spa it will serve you well.

[Nat]

Connecticut has some of the highest residential electric rates in the country. The only state with higher ones is Hawaii. See this:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That is probally half of the reason why Dilauro's hot tub used $200 worth of power in one month. The other factors could be cold weather, multiple drain/fills, long daily soaks, and less insulation on the tub.

--Nate

[thestallion]

Connecticut has some of the highest residential electric rates in the country. The only state with higher ones is Hawaii. See this:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That is probally half of the reason why Dilauro's hot tub used $200 worth of power in one month. The other factors could be cold weather, multiple drain/fills, long daily soaks, and less insulation on the tub.

--Nate

I am sure that in and of its self is the biggest reason but 200.00 is very high for a tub and much higher than many other makes of spas would have been. I think he can help to lower the cost by improving on the insulation. I am just sadden that he has to go though it with a new tub. I know that you rarely ever hear these issues mentioned again with the 6 or so makes of tubs that most commonly are referenced or recommended here. Some people seem to wonder why are there so few that get spoken about so much and some people think it is because these boards are just filled up with people who represent those products but I think it is more to the point that over time they have proven themselves to stand apart from many other tubs.

[kengorman]

Well, I got my first electric bill today!

$502.... Thats $200 more than normal!!!

went from 1760 kwh to 2909 in one month!

My first electric bill jumped significantly as well, however, my bills have come down substantially after that first one. I had inadvertently set the filter cycle to FC (continuous). It ran like this for about 4 days. This, coupled with heating 450 gallons of water from 60 degrees to 100 degrees will greatly impact your energy usage.

So, now, I can not imagine that electric bill will be normal.

Can the initial startup and changing settings frequently make that much a difference in electric?

Yes - my second months bill was significantly lower than the first and was about $45 dollars more than a similar period the year before. After my second bill came, I added insulation to the tub. My post-insulation bill was similar to the pre-insulation bill. I don't have enough data to draw any concrete conclusions, however, I do think the initial start-up, running on FC continuously, and heating all that water all contributed to the extravagent first months bill.

HTH,

Ken