waterbear

basic chemistry of bromine...most people think that by putting a bromine tab in a floater they are running bromine...they are not. First you have to establish a 'bromine bank' in the water with sodium bromide...you then activate it with hypochlorous acid which is immediately converterd into hypobromous acid (translation, you start a bromine spa by putting the sodium bromide in the water and activating it with chlorine!) If you want you can now put the tabs in the floater to help maintain the levels but it really isn't necessary...all you need to do is add an oxidizer to the water to reactive the hypobromous acid from the 'bromine bank". This is usually called 'shocking' and can be accomlised with either chlorine (usually liquid, dichlor, or in the bromine tabs...yes there is chlorine in the bromine tabs!), MPS (potassium monopersulfate, Oxone, non-chlorine shock), or ozone, which will convert the sodium bromide into hypobromus acid as long as it is being generated....sort of automates the whole process! what all these have in commen is they are oxidizers. As far as ozone and chlorine..Hypochloruous acid depletes ozone and ozone lowers free chlorine levels....they fight each other....While you gain some sanitation from the ozone you will need more chlorine to maintain proper residual than with out it. Also the chlorine breaks down the ozone. The chemisty is exactly the same as occurs in the atmosphere with the depletion of the ozone layer by chlorine and chlorine compounds . Bromine also destroys ozone but in the process hypobromous acid is formed, which is the sanitizer in a bromine system. Bromine also destroys chlorine. It converts it into hypobromous acid once again! When ozone reacts with chlorine this type of reaction does not occur and chlorine monoxide is formed. Main reason they say never to add acid to the water is twofold... One, dosing with acid is going to be in teaspoons or fractons thereof up to maybe an ounce. It's much harder to measure than dry acid and very easy to overdose but it can be done. Two, they want to sell you the expensive spa chemicals to keep their profit line up! (I happen to be in the pool/spa business so I have some perspective on this.) The ultra high TA is either from your fill water, or from overdosing on sodium carbonate (soda ash, washing soda, pH increaser...raises BOTH pH and TA quite fast) and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda, alkalinity increaser, which some people use in error to raise the pH of a spa! It raises TA with miminal impact on pH...usually raising it to about 7.8. Borax will raise pH with minimal impact on TA since it does not add carbonate or bicarbonates to the water, which is what your TA actually is, the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system in the water. Borax introduces a secondary boric acid/ borate buffer system)

If you have an ozone system then I would recommend bromine over chlorine. Ozone will reactivate the bromine bank automatically...this will be the easiest way to sanitize! Ozone and chlorine fight each other. Ozone and bromine play together very well!

Well, your original question was about high TA so either your dumped a LOT of baking soda into the spa or your fill water has high TA. You have also seen some scale deposit in the spa...High TA, high calcium and high pH cause this. If you keep notes on what you need and how much to get the water balanced the next time you drain and refill you will know just how much of everything to add to get it right so it becomes easier. You asked for my advice as to what I would do if it were my spa. I told you I would get rid of the N2, balance the water, and use either chlorine or bromine.

What is your calcuim hardness? If it is high the high pH you are running will lead to scaling. Also, if you are using test strips for testing get a test done with liquid reagents. Test strips don't have the resolution to balance water.

It is were my spa the first thing I would do is get rid of the N2 and just use chlorine or bromine! Also, DO NOT USE TEST STRIPTS FOR BALANCING. They are fine for quick checks to see if everything is withing parameters but the do not have the precision or resolution (NOT the same as accuracy) to balalnce the water. Second, I would test my fill water so I know what I am dealing with. Test for TA, CH, and metals. If there is any iron or coppperI would put in a seqesterant and let the filter operatare for 24 hours. If the Calcium is high I would select a seqesterant that is specific for calcium (usually called Calcium Hardness Reducer). Nether of these things can be done if you are using the N2 so in that case I would fill with softened water since a water softenter will remove both metals and calcium.(a spa filling stick filter will also work...goes on the end of your hose) Once the spa is filled I would ajust the TA if it is low with baking soda. If it is high I would lower it with acid. Once it is in balance I would add some calcium to protect the heater if your calcium is below 100 ppm. about 150-200 ppm is what I would shoot for. I would then shock the spa with liquid chlorine, ultrableach, or dichlor to about 10-15 ppm. (use dichlor if you still have the N2.) and then adjust my pH with either acid or borax to lower or raise it to about 7.4 (borax will raise pH with very minimal effect on your TA. If you are using the N2 I would then shock the spa with either dichlor or MPS after each use. If you are using just chlorine I would use the dichlor for an outside spa and liquid chlorine or bleach (same thing) for an inside spa. You need some stabilizer for an outside spa on chlorine but it is not necessary or desirable for in indoor spa! If you decide to go with bromine the procedure is slightly different. (Bromine is NOT compatible with N2!) Once you get to the part of being ready to shock you add sodium bromide to the water to create a bromine bank in the spa and then shock with either liquid chorine or dichlor to activate it. The chlorine is immediately converted into hypobromous acid. To maintain you then shock after each use and whenever the bromine levels are too low with either liquid chlorine , ultra bleach, dichlor or MPS...all 4 of them will have the same effect of reforming the hypobromous acid. You can also add a floater with bromine tablets but it is not necessary. It does help to maintain a more constant bromine level. Bromine tablets by themselves will NOT work. You need to create the bromine bank first with sodium bromide and activate it with chlorine the first time! No matter what method you choose you do need to drain and refill about every 3 months or less, depending on usage!

Always add the acid with the pump runnig. When your pH is down open the air valve. You will drive off the carbon dioxide that is part of the TA buffer system in the water. As it gases off the pH will rise and the TA will go down. repeat as needed. Realize that the amount of acid you need might be as small as a few teaspoons. Dry acid is easier to measure but either one is fine.

I would start with about half a tablespoon and then chekc your pH...you want to get it down to about 7.0 or a bit lower. Then turn on the blower if you have one and open the air jets up and run the spa. As you do two things will happen. the pH will sstart to rise and the TA will go down......continue this until the pH is up about 7.8(it might take a day or so) and check your TA. If it is still too high lower the pH to about 7 again and repeat, There is sound chemistry behind this but the explanation is rather lengthy. Once you get the TA into range then if you need to raise the pH with borax.

First you need to get your TA down to acceptable range with acid (dry or muriatic, but be careful with the muriatic...you need very little). Once the TA is in range you can raise the pH with borax. This will have minimal impact on the TA. Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) can be found in the grocery store in the green 20 mule team box in the laundry aisle or you can buy a sodium tetraborate product such as Proteam Supreme(basically the same thing except it has less water molecules attached, it is sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, so it is a bit more concentrated and you will need a bit less) and use that but not accoring to package directions. To use either for raising pH start with about 1/4 cup, wait a few hours to a day and test your pH. Repeat until pH is in proper range of 7.2 to 7.4. Be aware that your diclor is part of the reason your pH is low as it is slightly acidic.

Since almost all sequesterants are phosphonic acid derivatives such as HEDP they all work about equally well. I only know of one that isn't (although there might be some more). NaturalChemistry's Metal Magic is EDTA, a chelating agent.

Would you mind translating this into English so the rest of us understand what you are trying to say? You seem to be saying that you really don't know but you assume that it will be ok based on your lack of knowledge.

You really shouldn't post when you don't know what you are talking about. It is not fair to the people looking for answers to their problems! Cartridge filters filter more efficiently than sand. Sand will filter to about 60 microns. Carts to about 20 microns. and DE to abut 6 microms. You are right that sand filtes are the easiest maintenance (must feel good to be finally right about something!) Old sand does not filter as well as new sand because the erosion of the water on the sand rounds off the facets that actually catch the dirt! Where did you ever come up with needing to wash a cart daily?!?!?!....You really don't need to wash the cart until the filter pressure has risen 8-10 psi and with a properly sized filter this will take months! (however, monthly cleaning will make maintenance much easier since it will take much less time to clean the cart if you do it often and not wait for it to get really plugged up with stuff) A properly maintained cart will last about 5 years, not one, and should be soaked in a degreaser to remove organics yearly. Acid washing will shorten the life of a cart and should only be done after soaking in a degreaser since acid will cause the organics to hardend into a cement like substance and ruin the cart. You only acid wash if there is scale buildup on the cart!. Carts actually come pretty close to DE in their filtering ability and are much less work!

This was already covered at the beginning of this thread when someone mentioned 'chlorine lock'. This would NOT explain the FC testing at 0 ppm since chloroisocyanurates DO test as FC! Anyway AAS stated that his/her CYA was at 40 ppm! This is certainly NOT going to overstabilze the pool and is, in fact, right in the middle of the 30-50 ppm recommended range for CYA!

BOGUS INFORMATION!!!!! Regular bleach is 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. Ultra bleach is 6 % sodium hypochlorite. Liquid chlorine is either 6% (SAME as ultra bleach) or 10% or 12.5% (usually sold as liquid shock). The higher the concentration the faster it loses strength so that 12.5 jug might only be around 8% by the time it goes into your pool after sitting for a week, while the 6% stuff will still most likely be 6% a month or so later! The only difference between any of them is the amount you need to add to get a given ppm of Free Chlorine. Rule of Thumb for dosing...1 gallon will raise 10000 gallons of water approx. the percentage of chlorine in the sodium hypochlorite. Thus 1 gallon of 6% will raise 10000 gallons about 6 ppm and 1 gallon of 10% will raise 10000 gallons about 10 ppm, etc. There is no such thing as 'detergent algecide'. There are linear quats which foam (perhaps this is what you mean), polyquat which, IMHO, is the only algecide you should ever use, copper and silver based algecides which WILL cause staining if you have enough metal in the water to kill the algae, sodium bromide which will convert your chlorine pool to a bromine pool even if you add more chlorine (this effect is temporary), and inorganic ammonia compounds which form monochoramines to kill the algae. The last two types require the addtion of a lot of chlorine repeatedly for them to be effective and tend to create a lot of problems such as a hugh chlorine demand in the pool until they 'burn off' in a week or two.

BOGUS!!!!!!! Phosphates MIGHT be a cause of repeated algae blooms but are ususlly NOT the limiing factor. Algae also feed off of nitrogen compounds and these are far more commen in poosl than phosphates (where do you think chloramines come from?) IF you have no nitrogen compounds in the pool AND have high phosphates then reducing the phosphate might work but this is ususlly NOT the case!

Do you even have a clue as to how the NaturalChemisty line works? It is based on enzymes (which are actually protiens) and they break down (digest) organics.All you do is repeat sales patter and give no information. I find that very sad when people are coming here with problems and looking for answers.

Sorry to burst your bubble but ANY oxidizer will make metal staining worse....this includes Lithium Hypo, cal hypo, sodium hypo....any form of chlorine, in fact. Sodium bisulfate will work, as will muriatic acid since they will reduce the oxidation state of the iron and it becomes soluable in the water....A seqesterant needs to be added to keep it from staining again. Ascorbic acid is no secret....It (or oxalic acid) is the ingredient in the majority of stain treatments on the market. They work by reducing the oxidation state of the iron oxide also. Ascorbic acid is the chemical name for vitamin C. Rose hips happen to be an excellent source of vitamin c. Once again a seqesterant needs to be added to prevent restaining. If the stains are organic (say tannins from leaves) then chlorine will help to remove them but not metal stains such as rust!. BTW, mineral stains (including scaling from calcium) ARE metal stains!

And it is the most expensive form of chlorine you can buy! You must like the profit margin from the sale of it! What is wrong with Sodium Hypochlorite! OR even Cal Hypo, with all its disadvantages....they are both unstabilzed chlorine also. Sodium Hypo is my first choice. It is cheap, readily availabe, easy to dose, and has minimal impact on water chemisty....even affects pH less tha lithium hypo!

You never cease to amaze me! Phenol Red is the indicator used in both test strips and in drop based kits. It will tell you the pH but nothing about TA. TA is tested by difererent indicators with a titraton test! I really hope that you don't do any water testing for people!

The filter is a standard sand filter and the filter medium you have is just zeolite. It it being pushed as a "new miracle" filter medium but is only slightly more efficient than sand. It's main advantage is the ability to scavange ammonia compounds from the water. It needs to be regenerated yearly with a brine solution to keep the ammonia scavagine property. And just like sand it does need cleaning on a regular (usually yearly ) basis. If you could post a complete set of test results it would help to figure out what is going on in your pool.

MPS= potassium monopersulfate= non chlorine shock= DuPont Oxone (they developed it and manufacture it...everyone else just repackages it). Most people in the industry know what MPS is by this commen acronym.

There is no indicator called phenol blue! I don't know what the rep gives you but you might want to find out what it really is. I doubt you are testing the pH range of 3.0 to 4.6. EcoSmarte is a copper ionizer so perhaps the test you are doing is for copper and not pH. BTW, this is a quote off the Eco Smart website " ECOsmarte chemical free swimming pool systems have been in use for the past 10 years and have sold worldwide as a 100% chlorine and chemical free alternative. In Australia the APVMA does not allow this and requires pool owners to use an approved (read chlorine) sanitiser in conjunction with these systems." (empahsis mine....what do you think they know in Australia that we don't know here?) Also, Ecosmarte and Eco One are not the same. Eco One is an enzyme based cleaner that is used in conjunction with chlorine, bromine, copper, ozone, etc. I think the only thing it is not compatible with is biguinide. There are several such products on the market. Perhaps NaturalChemisty's Spa Perfect line is the most well known product of this type.

Are you referreing to lithium hypochlorite for iron and mineral stains....and by mineral stains do you mean metal stains?

High sanitizer levels can cause interferance with the pH test and give bogus high readings. I suggest that you let your bromine levels drop to normal range of about 6 ppm and then test pH....you might find that it is lower than you think! Also I would use a drop based reagent to test, not strips. If you can find a store that uses the Taylor Technologies testing reagents their pH indicator has a halogen neutralizer built in and will give accurate readings at higher sanitizer levels than test strips and some of the cheapie test kits.