waterbear

Spa Frog has recently changed their website also. They used to say that their system was a silver, zinc, and limestone. They said the silver was bacteriostatic (it is with a cavet) and that the zinc was algaestatic. Now they just say siver and limestone and no longer claim that the zinc helps prevent algae, nor do they even list it. Limestone is another name for calcium carbonate. We also know calcium carbonate as the scale that forms in our spas from hard water and high calcium levels. To the best of my knowledge calcium carbonate does not in any way help sanitize the water! Silver is bacteriostatic but needs a very long contact time because it has very slow kill times. In a spa or pool you need enough residual sanitizer to provide quick kill times of water borne pathogens. IMHO, mineral systems do not provide safe water when used at reduced sanitizer levels but are very effective in draining your wallet.

I'll repost the info I previously put under the thread "Rash". Hope it clears things up for you. Here it is: We just got a new shipment of Nature 2 spa cartridges in and I noticed the packaging was different and had a 2006 copyright on it so I opened one and read the instruction pamphlet, also copyright 2006!....low and behold it it NO LONGER a chlorine free system or LOW CHLORINE system! The "Old recipe" (which is STILL on their website) was : 1) on each refill add 1 teaspoon dichlor for each 250 gal water (this will bring the fc to 2 ppm) 2) before each use add 1 tablespoon MPS per 250 gallons OR 1/3 teaspoon dichlor (this will bring the FC to about .5 ppm) 3) once a week shock with 3 tablespoons MPS per 250 gal, the preferred way OR (in very fine print it says that 1 tablespoon dichlor can be subistituted which will bring the FC to about 6 ppm...hardly shock level!) 4) As needed or if water looks hazy shock with 1 teaspoon dichlor per 250 gal (2 ppm...hardly shock level!) 5) Drain, refill, put in new Nature 2 cartridge and start over every 4 months. The "New recipe" as of 2006 is: 1) on each refill add 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS dichlor for each 250 gal water (this will bring the fc to about 10 ppm...can anyone say 'shock'?) 2) before each use add 1 tablespoon MPS per 250 gallons (1 teaspoon dichlor can be substituted...this will raise the FC 2 ppm!) 3) once a week shock with 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS dichlor per 250 gal, the use of MPS for weekly shocking is no longer even an option! (this will bring the FC to about 10 ppm...standard shock level!) 4) As needed or if water looks hazy shock with 1 TABLESPOON dichlor per 250 gal (6 ppm...Isn't this normal chlorination for a spa?!) 5) Drain, refill, put in new Nature 2 cartridge and start over every 4 months. Seems to me that this is pretty much standard spa maintenace on chlorine without a Nature 2 cartridge! (and I wonder if the MPS before each use is really necessary if you are maintaining a FC level of 6 ppm! I think not!) My question is why even bother with the Nature 2 cartridge? This is, IMHO, pretty much an admission on the part of Zodiac that the Nature 2 cartridge does NOTHING for the spa except lighten your wallet!

any product that recommends raising your free chlorine level to between 20 to 75 ppm when the water becomes cloudy, smelly, or develops algae is certainly NOT any kind of santizer!

All forms of sodium hypochlorite, whether laundry bleach or liquid pool chlorine are mostly water and some salt (sodium chloride, table salt) that is a byproduct of the manufacturing process. The water and salt are the "inert ingredients". The pH of 11 is because of the sodium hydroxide content that is necessary to keep it stable (otherwiste the chorine would not stay in solution). The salt added to your spa has absolutely no effect (if it did any pool or spa with a salt water chlorine generator would be in trouble and they work just fine!) There is absolutely no reason why you cant use liquid sodium hypochorte, whether laundry bleach or liquid chlorine in your spa. Pool liquid chlorine is approx. twice as stronge but it breaks down much faster on storage. If you are concerned about the pH realize that when the chlorine reacts in the water it produces an acid reaction that is enough to effectively negate the pH of the sodium hypochlorite added so the effect on your spa water pH is minimal. ALL other forms of chlorine (dichlor, cal hypo, litium hypochlorite) have a greater impact on water pH! There is absolutely no reason why liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) cannot be used in a spa! It is my first choice for shocking. If it is used for normal chlorination and the spa is exposed to sunlight and outdoors then Cyanuric acid (stabilizer) needs to be added to the water to about 30 ppm to protect the chlorine from the sun. If dichlor is used for normal sanitation this is not necessary since dichlor is about half cyanuric acid. This is also the reason that dichlor should NOT be used for shocking since the cyanuric acid will build up too quickly and cause the spa to need to be drained and refilled in a much shorter time than normal (possibly after a few weeks, depending on the amount of dichlor used as shock and how often the spa is shocked). Also be aware that many public health departments are now recommending that dichlor NOT be used in spas and only unstablilized chlorine (sodium hypochlorite, calcium hypochlorite, lithium hypochlorite) be used and that cyanuric acid NOT be added. This does make keeping the chlorine levels high enough a problem unless you check your water daily, however!

If you are using a chlorine system then you want to use a non stabilized form of chlorine for shocking and a stabilized form of chorine for santizer if the spa is exposed to sun. If the spa is indoors you want to use only non stabilzied chlorine since the buildup of Cyanuric acid in the water from stabilized chlorine is detrimental. Also, some State public health departmens are now saying that no form of stabilized chlorine should be used in a hot tub but this makes maintenance very difficult if the spa is exposed to the sun. The purpose of stabilizer is to protect the chlorine from breaking down in sunlight but it also inhibits it's efficiency at killing microorganisms in the water. There is only one form of stabilized chlorine that should ever be used in a hot tub and that is dichlor. It will cause a slow pH drop with continued use but it's impact on the pH is very small.The other stabilized chlorine, trichlor, is too slow dissolving and acidic to use in a tub. Any of the non stabilized chlorines are suitable for hot tub use. They are: Lithium Hypochlorite---very fast dissolving but very very expensive to use. It has a high pH but because of the acidic reaction that occurs when the free chlorine is in the water it's effect on the spa pH is minimal. IT might cause a slight pH rise over time Calcium Hypochlorite (Cal Hypo)--often sold as 'spa chlorine sanitizer' and 'spa shock'. slow dissolving, can cause the water to cloud, adds calcium (hardenss) to the water and can lead to scaling, especially if your fill water is hard to start with. It has a high pH and will cause the pH in the spa to rise over time. Sodium hypochlorite (My choice)- - This is liquid chlorine which is available in 12.5%, 10% and 6% strenths in pool supply stores and also in grocery stores as laundry bleach in both 6% (ultra bleach), 5.25% (reglular bleach) and 3% (some of the cheap off brand laundry bleaches so read your labels!). Laundry bleach is an excellent shock, btw! You want the regular, unscented type...no florals,or special additives. Sodium hypochorite in any of it's forms has a high pH but because of the acidic reaction of the free chlorine in the water the net effect of spa water pH is usually 0! (The chemistry involved is a bit more complicated than just measuring the pH of the chlorine itself. It's a bit involved so I won't go into it here) For shocking a 400 gallon spa 1 cup of regular laundry bleach will raise your free chlorine to well above 10 ppm (actully, around 15 ppm) so it is more than enough. MPS, non chlorine shock, is expensive and is actually best used in indoor spas and with bromne systems (although liquid chlorine is actually a more effective and less expnsive shock for bromine systems.) MPS is NOT a sanitizer and should not be used as one...also MPS needs to be used on a REGULAR basis so there is always a residual in the water or you will get the formation of chloramines. MPS will NOT break down choramines and if they form you will need to shock with chlorine to destroy them. Also MPS makes water testing more difficult since it will read as part of your total chlorine reading unless you use a reagent to eliminte the interferace from it in your testing. Taylor Technologies sells a reagent to remove the MPS interfence for their DPD and FAS-DPD chlorine test kits for those who use MPS as a shock. one final thought on spa sanitation with chlorine. If you do not want to use dichlor as your primary sanitizer AND you spa is exposed to sunlight then you can use a non stabilized form of chlorine (which one doesn' matter) if yo add enough cyanuric acid (stabilizer) to the water to achieve a 30 ppm level. If you do this do NOT use any dichlor but only non stabilzied chorine. Chlorine levels in a spa should NEVER be below 2 ppm and ideally should be maintained betweeen 4-8 ppm (anything under 10 ppm is safe to be in according to most State health departments). When you shock the spa you should raise your free chlorine levels to at least 12-15 ppm and wait for the level to drop below 10 ppm before entering the spa. This is usually only a matter of hours. Be sure to leave the cover off the spa when you shock it so the ammonia compounds and nitrogen gas can dissapate into the air.

Nowhere on their website do they say that it is EPA approved as a sanitizer. Also, in small print they say it is compatible with chlorine and bromine. There are several enzyme products on the market (I like NaturalChemsitry's Spa Perfect myself) but this is the only one that I have seen that implies that it will sanitize the water. All the others that I have ever seen still say that they are NOT sanitizers and need to be used with an EPA approved sanitizer in the water. Enzymes will help break down organics and help reduce sanitizer demand but they will not kill water borne pathogens quickly (or at all!) , which is the purpose of a residual sanitizer in your water. Their website does make it sound like a miracle. Here is a quote from their website in the hints and tips section (Boldface by me): " At times you may experience an organic smell. This simply means Spa Magic has found contaminants and is working harder. This smell may suggest your filter requires more frequent cleaning. Check your pH, make sure it is between 8.0 and 8.4. Check the underside of your cover and clean if necessary. If the odor persists add two cups of chlorine bleach. If the odor gets stronger or persists for a long period of time add 1 to 2 quarts of bleach to really shock it good. Be patient. Spa Magic just need some time to do its job. Cloudy water may be caused by heavy usage, lotions, oils, deodorants, sun screen, other products used on the skin, or soap residues in bathing suits or your hair. To clear up cloudy water 4 to 6 ounces of water clarifier or two cups of bleach can be used to speed up recovery time. Be patient, the water will clear up and does not have to be drained, Spa Magic just needs some time to do its job. The Penetrating Spa Cleanser does not always remove all the contaminants in your system also there is always a little water left in the plumbing and pump. You may get a reaction, causing cloudy or green tinted water. Just add two cups of bleach and your water will clear up." It seems that they admit that the spa might get cloudy or smell or turn green (algae). These are all indications of an unsantized spa. They recommend adding bleach to fight this. Bleach is sodium hypochorite which is the same as pool store liquid chlorine except about half the strength. Two cups of bleach in a 400 gal spa will raise the free chlorine levels to almost 20 ppm! One quart will raise it to about 37.5 ppm and two quarts to about 75 ppm! This is way beyond shock level. It it more like nuking the spa! This much chlorine will certainly clear green, cloudy, or smelly water whether you have spa magic in it or not. So much for their claim of a chemical free spa! Seems they are admitting that chlorine is needed with their product.

Once again I have to say just because the water looks clear does NOT mean it is properly sanitized! It is very important to: 1) Use an EPA approved santizer (there are only 3, chlorine, bromine, and biguainde-- Baqua, SoftSoak, Revacil are some brand names of biguanide) 2) Use it PROPERLY and REGULARLY 3) Test your water REGULARLY with a good drop based test kit and do NOT rely on test strips! Spend some money on a good one from a company like Taylor Technologies or LaMotte. You spent thousands on your spa. Is $50-$200 really a lot to spend on a good test kit by comparison? Not really! 4) Don't believe all the marketing hype on all the miracle 'Natural', 'MIneral', 'Non Chemical', Reduced Chemical', 'Blue', etc. products out there that just drain your wallet. (Metal Ions ARE chemicals, btw.) They might help keep the water looking clear by inhibiting algae but they are not keeping it safe! Pseudomonas is only one of many water borne pathogens that can grow and cause problems in undersanitized water. You need enough residual sanitzer in the water with a quick kill time to take care of them....This means chlorine, bromine, or biguanide at proper levels. 5) Realize that MPS (non chlorine shock) does NOT sanitize the water and if you are using it be sure that your sanitizer level is at least 2 ppm for chlorine and 4 ppm for bromine at all times. If you are using chlorine or bromine in an outdoor tub then unstabilzied chlorine (calcium hypochlorite, lithium hypochlorite, sodium hypochlorite--liquid chlorine or laundry bleach) is a better choice of shock, IMHO. 6) Realize that Hydrogen Peroxide (used as a shock with biguanide based systems) does NOT sanitize the water and if you are using such a system be sure that your saniizer (biguanide) level is proper at all times. You should have a test kit that will test both biguanide and peroxide levels. There is one available from Taylor Technologies. Hope this is helpful.

bleach works fine (used to use it myself before I got a salt water chlorine generator) but if the tub is exposed to sunlight you would need to add stabilizer (cyanuric acid) to keep the sun from destroying the chlorine. this is true for any unstabilized chlorine (cal hypo, lithium hypochorite, or liquid (sodium hypochlorite) For shocking unstabilized chlorine is best. Dichor is stabilized so you would not need to add stabilizer if you used it for normal chlorination.

The ozonator will destroy some of the chlorine. Is the tub exposed to sun at all? If so you do need to have CYA in it just like in a pool....about 30 ppm. Also, the higher heat and large bather load in the smaller water volume will create a higher chlorine demand than in a pool. Remember, a hot tub is NOT just a small pool. Sanitizing one is a bit different. Have you tried adding enough chlorine to bring it to shock level after use (10 ppm if there is no cya, about 12 ppm if there is 30 ppm CYA, about 15 ppm if there is 50 ppm CYA)? It is not unusual for a tub to need some chlorine added before use to bring up the residual free chlorine to the 3-6 ppm range. It seems that you have found how to keep your tub sanitized fairly easily. Don't lose any sleep on adding half a cup of bleach at a time if you rumbers are good and the tub is clear and clean. Seems like pretty easy maintenace to me!

There is a choice of 3 EPA approved sanitizers....chlorine, bromine, and biguanide. Chlorine is the easiest to use and when used properly keeps the spa water clean and sanitized with very few side effects. When used properly, there is little or no smell and it is gentle to the skin. Bleaching of bathing suits can occur if you let the levels get too high but that is not using it properly. Bromine is more expensive and a bit harder to use, It is more likely to cause a reaction with some people since it is a known sensitizer but is a better choice than chlorine if you have an ozonator since ozone works with it instead of against it. (Ozone reactivates bromine while it tends to destroy chlorine, however ozone can be used sucessfully with chlorine if this is taken into account). It is also a better choice for indoor spas. Bromine is less fussy about pH but does make some other water balancing issues a bit harder. Bromine has a distincitive smell that some people find 'strong' or 'chemical'. Biguanide (Baqua, Revacil, SoftSoak) is an antimicrobial that is used with a hydorgen peroxide oxidizer. It is expensive to use and will require filter and spa cleaning and filter replacement more often than either chlorine or bromine. It is a good choice for people who have a chemical senisitivity to chlorine or bromine. The biggest drawback (besides the price) is the tendency for white water mold and pink algae (both bacterias) to develop an immunity to it over time. It is not compatible with many spa chemicals so if you choose it make sure that any products you use are compatible with it! Metals (copper/siver or copper/zinc, or copper systems) such as electonic ionizers, Nature2, Spa Frog, Pristine Blue, etc. are not stand alone sanitizers and do need to be used with a residual of chlorine or bromine. Some metal systems, Nature2 for example, are only compatible with chlorine while others,(Spa Frog) can be used with either. The claim is that you can use a reduced sanitizer level with these systems but recent research indicates that the reduced levels of residual sanitzer do not provide properly sanitized water.The Austrailian government has recently passed legislation that requires these system to be used with normal sanitizer levels in spas and pools because of this and Nature2, who promoted their system as a 'low chlorine' alternaitve has recently changed their directions for spa use and it now uses normal chlorine levels and not reduced chlorine levels in the US. The new directions are in the 2006 copyright boxes of their spa cartridges but their website had not been updated last time I looked (about 2 weeks ago). Metals can cause staining of spa surfaces and hair and nails if the levels get too high or the water balance goes 'off'. Metals do have algastatic and bacterostatic properties (they have no effect against viruses) but have very slow kill times which is why a residual chlorine or bromine level is required with them. Ozone is not a stand alone sanitizer since it does not provide any residual in the water. It can help reduce the amount of sanitizer needed to maintain proper water quaility however. Hydorgen peroxide by itself and MPS by itself will not properly sanitize the water. Bottom line, whatever sanitizer system you choose you need to use it properly. The purpose of the sanitizer system is more than to just keep the water clear. It is to keep it safe, pathogen free, and prevent water borne illnesses. A good test kit is a necessity! Don't rely on test strips. They do not have the precision needed for water balance. This is one area where you should get the best one you can find. Taylor is my fist choice. LaMotte also make good kits but they are a bit more expensive. I would suggest that you research exactly what each system requires in terms of maintenance and cost and be aware that there is a lot of 'marketing hype' out there to sell expensive equipment with scare tactics (such as saying that chlorine causes cancer, which is a distortion of the facts, or that 'minerals' will keep your water clear....'minerals' are a marketing term for metals. If you want to give different systems a try that would be a good idea since spas are drained and refilled every 3 months approximately. If you decide to to this it is probably easiest to start with chlorine, then try bromine, and if you don't like those two then try biguanide. This is the least problematic way because of the chemical interactions between these different systems. It is very easy to convert a chlorine system to bromine, a bit harder to convert a bromine system to chlorine, and most difficult to convert a biguanide system to either chlorine or bromine but not as difficult to convert chlorine or bromine to biguanide.

I agree with what Chas says with one caution. Don't let the pH go below 6.8! It is a bit safer to keep it about 7.0 since you might think you are at 6.8 but the pH is acutally much lower because this is the lowest limit that phenol red can test. Also be sure to use a good drop based kit and don't rely on strips if you do this. If the pH is too low (lelow 6.8) it can attack the heat exchanger.

Because of the constant aeration in a hot tub you will always have a TA that will drop.(and the acids given off by the bodies soaking in them also cause the pH and TA to drop) This is easily remedied by the addition of baking soda (EXACTLY the same thing as total alkalinity increaser!) I personally keep the TA in a tub around 100-150 ppm if the tub gets a lot of use. When the TA is on the low side and the pH is where you want it then add the baking soda, reajust the pH since the baking soda will cause it to rise slightly, and you are good to go again. This is why a good test kit and regular water testing is important. I would test the pH at least a few times a week and the TA weekly or every two weeks. Calcium can be tested montly since it doesn't change that much once it has been adjusted unless you have a lot of evaporation and your fill water is either very hard or very soft. Also if your fill water has a high TA, which yours seems to have, then the water that you add to make up for evaporation will probably keep your TA in line once you get it adjusted initially.

There really is only one way to succesfully lower TA.....Here it is step by step (You must have a drop based test kit to do this, test strips do not have the precision needed!) 1 drop the pH to 7.0 with acid 2 start aerating the water (turn on all you blowers and venturis for the jets). As you aerate the pH will rise because of the outgassing of carbon dioxide gas. 3 test pH as you aearate and when it climbs to about 7.6 retest TA. If TA is still to high repeat process It can take anywhere from an hour to a day of aeration to cause the pH to rise back up. it depends on how well your tub will aerate the water. For a brief explanation of why this works....when you add the acid to drop the measureable TA you convert part of the carbonate/bicarbonate buffer we call TA to carbonic acid (carbon dioxide dissolved in water, think club soda) when you aerate you drive off the carbon dixoide( think shaking a bottle of club soda to make it go flat) which reduces the amount of carbonic acid and causes the pH to rise with no impact on the TA If your TA needs to be lowered a lot there is a faster way if you have a good drop based test kit and are familiar with it's use....keep the pH at 7 by the additon of acid while you aerate and keep testing TA until it is where you want it then stop adding acid and let the pH rise by the aeration....You will end up the the pH and TA exactly where you want them

There is so much misinformation in this post and so many run on sentances that I don't know where to begin. for example "fill water from Well, and maybe acid rain are the only two sources that could lower your TA. City will increase it every time....." Well water might have a high TA or a low TA, it depends on the part of the country that you are in. Ditto for city water. In the area I live in both well water and city water have a TA of about 110 ppm. Depening on where you keep the TA in your pool this could either raise or lower the TA of the pool (or have no effect at all). "So anyone else reading focus on the TA of your pool always save some money and time this is not hard and is what it is and do not keep high levels of chlorine in the water test your pool yourself every other day." Could someone please translate this into English? It makes no sense whatsoever. "Trichlor and Dichlor will only effect the PH at first not the TA and only because of over chlorination of the pool." The reason trichlor and dichlor will affect the pH and then the TA of a pool has nothing to do with overchlorination. They are acidic. Trichlor has a pH of about 2 while diclor's pH is about 6. Over time the continual use will lower the pH and cause the TA to lower also. When these are used for chlorination you are constantly adding an acid to your pool. "If you keep the PH to low and do not pay attention to the TA your pool will bottom out and become to acidic which happens 90% of the time and than what in the chemist world what do you add to get the acid out sodium Bicarbonate / Baking soda and alot of swimming pools are what they are and the chemicals you put into them." Once again, can anyone translate this into English? From what I can tell you are advocating using sodium bicarboante to raise pH. This is not an effective way to do that. Sodium bicarbonate is used to raise TA. To raise pH without having an impact on TA you would use sodium tetraborate. To raise pH and TA at the same time you would use sodium carbonate. "This from 23 yrs experience in the swimming pool industry." Sorry if this appears to be rude but in 23 years one would think you would have learned a bit about pool chemicals, water chemistry, and proper water balance. You make no mention of calcium levels which have to be taken into consideration. A pool with high calcium should be run at a lower TA to avoid scaling. You also make no metion of CYA (cyanuric acid) levels. CYA will test as TA but is not part of carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbnate buffer system and if the CYA levels are high then the TA should be adjusted. A ball park ajustment is to subtract 1/3 of the CYA reading from the TA when the pH is 7.4 to 8.0 or 1/4 of the CYA reading if the pH is 7.o-7.2 to get the ajusted TA. If the CYA levels are low (30 ppm or below) then the effects of CYA on the TA reading are minimal and can be pretty much ignored. "A pool is not rocket science" On this I agree 100%. However, a basic knowledge of the chemistry that happens in a pool is necessary to successfully balance the pool water and sanitize it. Very few chemicals are actually needed to balance a pool and sanitize it. A form of chlorine (or bromine or biguainde) for sanitation, muriatic acid for lowering pH, sodium tetraoborate for raising pH without impacting TA, baking soda for rasing TA, sodium carbonate for raising both TA and pH at the same time, calcium chloride to increase calcium hardness if needed, and possibly CYA if non stabilized chlorine is used as the chorine source. All other chems are really unnecesary, except for possibly polyquat to help combat algae in conjuction with shocking although the use of sodium tetraborate in the 30-50 ppm is effective as an algaestat and helps lower the chlorine demand.

The right way is to maintain proper water balance, which can be done with any form of chlorine and assciated chemicals.

If the TA is too high the 'slug method' of adding acid is not effective. A much easier way is to lower the TA with acid (do not go below a pH of 7 for vinyl pools! no lower than 6.8 for gunite or fiberglass) and then aerate to raise the pH (yes, it works by outgassing carbon dixoide so there is less carbonic acid, which is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, in the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system we call TA). Once the pH is in line (7.4-7.6) recheck the TA and if still too high repeat the process until the TA is correct once the pH has been raised by aerating.

If your nomal dose of chlorine does not produce the desired residual it means the chlorine has been used up oxiziding organics and algae in the water. This is called chlorine demand. Once the chlorine demand has been satisfied then the excess chlorine in the water will show up. This is why it is important to test your residual free chlorine and make sure it is there. It is the residual free chlorine that is 'sanitizing' the water. If there are a lot of organics in the water you need to put in enough to oxidize them (destroy them) first. "Shocking" is actually different. That is putting in enought chlorine to break the clorine/ammonia bond in the chloramines that form in the water to destroy the ammonia. Shocking should be done whenever your combined chlorine reading (chloramines) is .5 ppm or higher. It is possible (and very commen) to have combined chlorine over.5 ppm even with high free clorine levels. Mantain your free chlorine between 3-10 ppm for normal sanitation. How high you need to bring your free chlorine levels for shocking depends, on part, on how high your CYA (cuanuric acid) has risen from the use of dichlor, which is a stabilzied chlorine and adds CYA each time you use it. It will take more dichlor to maintain your tub after a month or two then when freshly filled for this reason. Many state health departments now recommend not using stabilized chlorine in hot tubs but only non stabilized chlorine for this reason. (Cal Hypo, Sodium Hypochlorite, lithium hypochorite). I personally like to use dichor for establishing the free chlorine residual and normal sanitation and sodium hypochorite (liquid chlorine or laundry bleach...the same thing. 1 oz of 5.25% laundry bleach will raise 100 gal approx 2 ppm FC, 1 oz. 6% ultra bleach will raise it about 2.4 ppm) for shocking and statisfying a high chlorine demand since this will not cause the CYA to rise as fast. HIgh CYA levels will cause problems with algae and cloudiness (and water that is not santized and safe!) even if the free chlorine levels seem fine. A good drop based test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 (IMHO, the best one out there) is your best friend when adjusting your water. It is worth every penny! The Taylor K-2005 is ok but not as easy to use or as accurate for testing your free and combined chlorine and will beach out at high chlorine levels commenly found in shocking. Either of these kits will test all the water parameters you normally need to test in your tub.

Sodium Bromide is not a sanitizer but when an oxidizer is introduced into the water it reacts with the sodium bromide to form hypobromous acid, which is your sanitizer. It is not necessary to use a floater with bromine tabs if you check your bromine (actually hypobromous acid) levels on a regular basis and add your oxidizer to maintain a proper bromine level, usually beteen 5-8 ppm. The floater makes this a bit easier since the tabs contain both bromine and an oxidizer (either chlorine or MPS). The tabs also contain dimethylhydantion which works in a bromine system in in a similar way that CYA works in a chlorine system. It helps stabilize the bromine. It has many drawbacks however and some research indicates that the DMH can 'lock up' the bromine in much the same way that CYA can overstabilize a chlorine system and can cause the formation of many undesirable byproducts in the water. If you monitor your bromine levels and add oxidizer whenever they drop too low you do not need to use the floater. As far as using chlorine in your spa, that is actually my sanitizer of choice. Bleach is an effetive choice (dichlor is good also) but you will need to test your levels daily and maintain a minimum of 3 ppm FC. Spas are usually maintained at 3-6 ppm. If the spa gets sun exposure then you might need to maintain a 30-50 ppm CYA level just like in a pool if you are suing bleach. (However, some state health departments are now saying that CYA should not be used in spas at all and do not even recommend dichlor for spa chlorination.) It is a good idea to shock a chlorine spa on a regular basis since the formaiton of chloramines in a spa happens more quickly because of the organics introduced into the water by the bathers in the smaller volume of water. It is a bit more work to maintain the proper FC level in a spa (when compared to a bromne system with a floater) but if you keep on top of it the water will alway be safe and clear. It's about the same as using a bromine system without the floater (daily water checks to maintain the sanitizer level).

depends on the type of chlorine. Dichlor, Cal Hypo, and Liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) are the most commen types used in spas. Dichlor is stabilized, cal hypo and liquid are not. Some brands are packaged for use in both pools and spas. Some have different packaging and dosing instructions for pool or spa use. Trichlor is often used in pools and is NOT a good choice to use in spas. It is stabilized. Lithium Hypochlorite can be used in either pools or spas but it is very expensive to use so it is not that commen. It is non stabilized. Some state health departments are now recommending only using non stabilized chlorine in spas, which means ususally Cal Hypo or liquid. It is interesting that HTH has recently discontinued their dichlor for spas and now only offers cal hypo as spa chlorinator and also as spa shock. Both these products contain the same amount of available chlorine (and are, in fact interchangable) but there is a great difference in the price of the spa chlorinator and the spa shock! (I guess this is where being an educated consumer really pays off!) Bottom line is this....chlorine is chlorine if the type and available chlorine in the product are the same. As a general rule the products packgaged for pool use from a product line are often cheaper than the spa products from the same manufacturers line even though the product is identical. The only differece is the dosing instuctions on the container. There are some companies that might add pH buffers to the spa product line that are not in the pool product line but that is not universal. I personally prefer dichlor and/or liquid chlorine for spa use. Dichlor dissolves fast and since spas are drained an refilled every few months the problem with overstabilization is moot. Neither of these will cause clouding of the water and liquid chlorine has very minimal impact on pH and TA. Dichlor will affect pH and TA slightly more but not enoung to really cause any major problems. Neither will increase calcium levels and contribute to scaling.

Cleanwater Blue is NOT a sanitizer (it's merely chelated copper)....MPS (non chlorine shock) is NOT a sanitizer! There are only 3 EPA registered sanitizers for hot tubs....chlorine, bromine, and biguanide! Copper can kill algae and has some bacteriostatic effects (but no action against viruses) but very slow kill times. .9 ppm copper is enough to cause staining of the spa and your hair and nails (Green!) if your pH goes high or y our chlorine actually gets to a workable shock level. Your water is cloudy and foamy because of the bacteria and organics in it. 2 terasoons of dichlor once a week is hardly shock level. For 300 gallons 1 1/2- 2 tablespoons is more like it. This will bring the freee chlorine up to about 10 ppm and that is considered shock level. I teaspoon of dichlor is the MINIMUM I would put in before each use. This will bring your free chlorine up in the neighborhood of 2 ppm, which is the minimim safe level of chlorine that most state health departments now recommend to make sure that water borne pathgens are killed quickly. 4 ppm would be better. If you want to continue using the cleanwater blue then I suggest that you ditch the MPS and use dichlor or sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine or bleach) with it. Be careful of stains, however, since they are a real possiblility. Copper and MPS will NOT keep a spa santized! Believe it or not, chlorine is probably the easiest way to maintain a spa with the least amount of problems.

Valid point! Many state health departments now recommend a MINIMUM free chlorine level of 2 ppm or an ORP reading of around 800 mv. Ozone will only oxidize what it comes in contact with and since it does not have a residual it does not do much good for the body of water in the tub. It is really only sanitizing what passes thruogh the reaction or injection chamber. In actual practive the ozone most likely gets used up fairly fast oxidizing the ammonia compounds produced by our bodies as we soak that it really does not do much sanitation. This is where the chlorine or bromine come into play.

I have to agree with what you say about the chemical smell of bromine. A properly maintained chlorine spa, with or without ozone, is practically oderless!

Ozone Services states on their website that chlorine and ozone "have the tendency to eliminate each other. Bromine and ozone cooperate to some degree." They further state that "bromine usage with ozone is almost 1/2 of what would be chlorine usage with ozone in the same pool - while maintaining recommended residuals" http://www.ozoneservices.com/faq/faq015.htm Chlorine and ozone react to form chlorine oxide, which then breaks down into chlorine and oxygen and tend to leave the water in gaseous form or form chloride and chlorate ions in the water, particularly if your ozone levels are too high. If chlorine levels are too high then the ozone is rapidly broken down into oxygen and gasses off. Ozone reacts with bromide ions in the water to form hypobromous acid (the active sanitzier in a bromine system) and bromates (depleated bromine) so it tends to reactivate the bromine into active sanitizer until the bromine bank is depleated. Chlorine can be effectively used with ozone if you pay attention to your residual chlorine levels. However, it is more effective to use bromine with ozone.