Mikey_in_NY

Since we bought our spa it's been a great place for family gatherings most nights - no TV, cell phones, etc, and you can't put a price on that. Although my wife has now begun to question how much I'm spending on cigars and beer!

They certainly have a huge choice of spas's, but need a lesson in English! http://www.china-jnj.com/EN/Hot_Tubs_01.htm

I can't comment on the Jacuzzi but last year I purchased a Sundance Hawthorne, which is basically the same as the Hartford (both 680 series) but with a lounger instead of 2 seats. http://www.sundancespas.com/680Series/680Series.html After nearly 6 months I'm very happy with this tub - no issues whatsoever, and great dealer support. You're probably already aware that both of these tubs are at the 'low-end' of the Sundance range, which basically means you don't get the fancy aromatherapy and fluidix jet options, but nevertheless you do get a solid, quality, well insulated tub which should last for many years - but I can't yet qualify that statement! When I bought mine I persuaded the dealer to throw in the 'optional' 24 hour circ pump, ozonator, stainless jets and LED lights for the same price - this may be normal practice, so you should try the same. For what it's worth I've also read Jacuzzi and Sundance are in fact the same company.

I'm struggling to understand some of these low numbers here. I live in western NY where it's frequently below 15F. I leave my tub set at 101F. I'm in my tub every night for around 40 mins with the pumps on maybe 50% of the time, during which the temp drops around 2F depending upon how windy it is, with the heater kicking in, and staying on, for maybe the last 20 minutes, When I get out the heaters probably on for another 30 mins or so to get the water back above 101F. Again, none of this has anything to do with how well the tub is insulated - just heat loss due to surface cooling and evaporation. So, assuming 50mins of heating with a 5.5KWH heater at $0.15 per KW, which equals $0.69 per day, and that totally excludes the power the pumps and ozonator uses, never mind the routine heating needed over 24 hours, as well as the 2 x 30 mins filtration cycles. I'm guessing but that's got to be more than $1.00 per day. So how can anyone's electric bill for a hot tub in a cold climate be only $20 per month (or $0.67 per day) if they use their tub every day??? I don't get it. $20 per month in the winter @ $0.12 per kw equates to 167 kw which, with a 5.5 kw heater means the heater is only on for 30 hours in that month, or one hour per day? And that assumes NO electric usage from ozonator, pumps, lights, etc. I must be missing something here?

The statement "energy guaranty of $20-$30 max depending on climate and location" is very ambiguous to say the least. If you live in a cold winter climate - say between 0F and 30F and you never open the cover then just maybe you'll get away with $30, but assuming you're gonna use it a few times a week $60 per month could be what to expect. HS are well insulated tubs, but it doesn't matter how well insulated the shell is when the covers up - all that steam is your $ evaporating. Cost is also very dependant upon where you live. Here in NY a KW costs $0.15, but in other states I believe a KW can be as cheap as $0.08, a difference approaching 100%!

I'd bite their hand off at that price. Sundance make quality tubs.

Make sure your new concrete pad doesn't need some time to 'cure' before placing your new tub on it. Your contractor can advise you further on this.

Filled my 540 gal tub with 49F water a couple of weeks ago. Took 12 hours to get to 100F, and that was with a 5.5KW, 220V heater. So I agree with Dr Spa - allow a full day.

For what it's worth I've been using this method very successfully now for nearly 5 months with no problems (changed water first time about a month ago). The water is always well balanced in terms of PH, FC, CC and TA. My tub also has an ozonator. Just like OttawaGreg I'm also unsure if I need to be spending $40 every 4 months on a Nature2 cartridge, but because I've had no problems with my water chemistry I'm just gonna keep on with the same old regime (if it ain't broke don't fix it). Like Chem geek said I usually get a mild 'bleachy' / ozone smell when I lift the cover, but apart from that there's very little odor. Probably too late to worry about it now anyways as I've been drinking and bathing in chlorinated water from the faucet for the last 50 years.

Sandi / Grayce - thanks for your prompt replies to my questions. Looks like I'll be investing in one of these blankets soon.

There may be some sort of freeze protection built in to the board logic, where if the temp in the equipment compartment falls too low then the heater will kick in to protect all the various components. Now you've put the door back on it may be warm enough in the compartment to stop this happening?

Hey Grace / Dr. Spa - I'm interested in this floating blanket also, as my electric bill has certainly gone up this last month with the cold weather. Two questions... 1. Is the blanket negatively affected by an ozonator? 2. Grace - did you see any reduction in your electric bill since using this blanket?

Voice - you have some valid comments regarding Costco buyers wasting dealers time asking for wet tests, but you're way off base with your pricing comments in your first paragraph... 1. When a potential purchaser enters your showroom, sees the MSRP's, and quickly walks out muttering under their breath about how expensive your tubs are, then what does that do for your monthly sales? Don't assume that every customer wants to engage a salesman - some simply prefer to walk around undisturbed looking at prices. 2. Why would anyone want to walk into Home Depot with a notebook or camera when all they need to do is look on homedepot.com? or Lowes.com? or wherever? Home Depot do sell some higher $ items such as washers, fridges, back-up generators, etc, and ALL of these prices are totally transparent via their web site. So how do they remain competitive doing the exact thing that you find "annoying" in a much more competitive market? I do accept there is a case for some wiggle room on MSRP's for most high $ items, including hot tubs. but not the 30% to 40% I encountered earlier this year from most of the main brands. If posting the real MSRP means a particular dealer is uncompetitive with other dealers then tough - they're gonna have to figure out a way to reduce overheads or go out of business just like in any other market. Finally, I doubt your comments are shared by most Spa manufacturers

Don't hold me to this but I'd bet the connection diagrams you show are for the supply, and not the actual draw. On my hot tub (Sundance) the 40A, 50A and 60A labelling is for the supply, and I'm pretty sure the same applies to all manufacturers, whether they make hot tubs, dishwashers or toasters! Might be worth speaking with an electrician if you know one.

Hey gman - seems that great minds think alike!

You will need to change the breaker first. You can't run a 50 amp product on a 50 amp breaker it will trip because of the heat from the equal rating from the breaker and spa. You would need a 60 amp breaker. Breakers are used with at least a 10 % difference between them and the product that is connected to them. Another way is this when a electrical device is turned on like a jet pump the amps jump way up and then level off once the motor starts. So with a 50 amp breaker and spa set at 50 amps with it heating and you turn the pump on high speed the amps jump up and the breaker trips You are correct PS558, however configuration diagrams such as these are typically for the supply required, and include the allowance you speak of (BTW I think it's 25%, not 10%, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this). For example a tub requiring a 60A GFI will only actually draw 48A constant with both pumps on high plus the heater.

This is a long shot but some boards can be configured for 40A, 50A or 60A demand via jumper settings. If your board is calling for 60A with both pumps and the heater on, but it's configured for maybe 40A or 50A, then you're obviously going to trip the GFI. The way around this is to change your jumper settings if you have a manual.

Don't forget about safety. You don't want people accidentally walking on the tub and crashing through the lid. Our lid is durable enough to deal with 'some' load but I'm still wondering how to best deal with blocking it off against foot traffic (aka children). Hot tub covers in my area, and I think most/all of the US, have to be ASTM certified, meaning they have to be able to withstand a certain static load without collapsing. Not sure exactly what this load is but it's a lot more than a child or two. I believe the only exception to this is where the area containing the tub is fenced off, meaning the hot tub would then be considered a 'pool', and no cover regulations then apply. But don't take my word for it - talk to your local town inspector.

Standby watts is how much energy the spa will use just ticking over and maintaining temperature with the cover closed. From an energy efficiency perspective this is a good comparison of how well insulated (and efficient) a particular tub is, however this comparison is only truly fair if all tubs tested use a low power circ pump for heating, rather than main pumps which will suck up more electric, and therefore skew the data. After a lot of searching page 86 on this link... http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009publications/...00-2009-013.PDF describes the test conditions/methods, which appear to be water temp 102, ambient temp 60. If this testing was carried out by an unbiased 3rd party then they could be considered a fair and scientific comparison of the various brands, but I don't know if that was the case or not.

Did you replace the cover when you came back home? If you're still running it without the cover then you'll certainly lose water by evaporation - especially if you live in a cold climate, not to mention a huge electric bill. If you're losing water with the cover on, then yes, you've got a leak somewhere.

Don't know if this is what you wanted but there is some updated info here... http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/QuickSearch.aspx Select 'Pool Products', then 'Portable Electric Spa's, and you can export the results to an Excel file showing standy watt consumption of all the major manufacturers.

LOL...here we go again with the sales pitch for a tub that is well, almost as good as some but not as good as others. You need to add in your opinion to your statements because in my opinion it isn't the "best insulation bar none" I will give you a 100% garuantee that during non filter times (20 hrs a day) the pump and heater will kick on intermittantly several times a day to recover lost heat as the R-Factor of the side walls and cover looses heat to the ambient outside temp here in Northern Minnesota. Maybe not where you live. There is NO magic in Arctics insulation design. The R-Factor is the R-Factor of the side walls and the cover. Heat loss on an Arctic is constant just like on any other tub. Totally agree. All reputable tubs have good insulation, and no doubt each manufacturer will say their own tub has "the best" insulation. As far as I'm aware there is no scientific data available to determine insulation rankings between brands, so debating which tub may or may not have the best insulation is a pointless, and circular argument driven only by subjective opinion.

Agree with Hrustar - you cannot simply 'plug in' a 220v hot tub, it must be on a dedicated circuit, protected by a GFCI and, in my area at least, with an outside disconnect more than 5 feet away from tub. There are some tubs that will work on a 40A GFCI circuit - I know Sundance have these available, possibly Hot Spring and others also. Don't know how far tub needs to be from A/C - have you tried calling your town inspector? Lastly, $2,000 seems a lot for a new sub panel, $1,000 seems more realistic? Try shopping around for a better quote.

I dunno how you guys can stand -20F, and I'm here in Buffalo. Getting hammered with lake effect snow last 24 hours - tub's rapidly dissapearing under a huge snowdrift.

I dunno how you guys can stand -20F, and I'm here in Buffalo. Getting hammered with lake effect snow last 24 hours - tub's rapidly dissapearing under a huge snowdrift.