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I do sell Sundance but on the west coast. Check out New England Hot Tubs in Norwell,Auburn or Natick, MA. They sell Sundance. or Check out Crocker Sales in Woburn, they sell them also. I do not believe that Crocker sells Sundance, unless this just happened very recently. John

I'd recommend New England Spas. I do a lot of work for them as a sub-contract servicer, although not on the north shore. I'm in SE Mass. They are very reputable. John

Even when considering the opinions of electricians, many people do not take into account their level of expertise with this particular equipment. Some are very good and experienced with the nuances of Article 680. Others, you can tell, never cracked the code book and read that section. I've seen the gamut of great wiring jobs and some pretty pathetic ones, all performed by licensed electricians. A small niche portion of my business is consulting with engineering firms, insurance company's and lawyers following catestrophic failure of hot tubs, jetted baths and sauna/steam equipment. When following these online "debates", be cognizant of the fact that some of these "opinions" are based on little to no experience or actual knowledge. Electricians that do a lot of hot tub work quickly learn their way around the sometimes unique requirements of hot tubs. John

I did factory work for them for a few years and I never saw any schematics. Then again, there is so little to the Softub boards that you don't really need a schematic. If your display is dead and the motor is not running, I'd suspect the cord end GFCI first, followed by a board fuse or a bad board. John

NM is NOT ALLOWED. Article 680.42 C allows for this wiring method on the indoor portion of the run and in that respect NM would be compliant. However, you run afoul of a couple of other articles due to the HS requirement for 75 C or better conductors. Specifically, you run afoul of 334.80 and 110.3 B. In 334.80, NM is considered a 60 C conductor, period. Any NM marked with a higher temperature rating can only use that for derating purposes, not for actual conductor temperature rating. In 110.3 B, the installer is REQUIRED to install the equipment per the LISTING or LABELLING of the equipment. The HS engineers sought the listing of their equipment with either UL or ETL utilizing something better than 60 C conductors and the testing lab issued the certification based on that 75 C minimum rating. My advice is to make the whole run on a HS tub with THWN-2, which is readily available. You may sneak indoor NM past the inspector if he does not realize the HS requirement, but God help you if there is a melt down, the insurance company gets involved and they have a pro go through everything. John

Two points. First, you should have had the tub filled for the electrician so he could power up and test his work. The manual is clear about the need to have the tub full before powering on. Second, there are safeties designed to keep this from happening, but parts (including safety related parts) do fail with age and cannot be relied upon to protect your tub when powered up dry. I suspect that you have more than a heater to replace. The cause of this melt down could possibly be flow sensing related or even a fused heater relay on the circuit board. Until you test, you won't know for sure. John

Looks like Spa Builders version of one of the old Len Gordon packs. Key question: What's the voltage coming into the Common terminal of the relays and are the relays actually switching between NO and NC?? John

Only one relay opens when the call for heat terminates. The other relay is always energized, unless a safety shut down occurs, such as the high limit detecting a problem with an overheat condition. Good luck finding a schematic. I'm in the trade and I can't get one. John

Again, even the smaller conductors attached to the 20 and 30 amp GFCI breakers need to be rated 75 C or better. Use of anything less constitutes a violation of Art. 110.3 B of the NEC. John

Wire size is only one aspect of conductor selection. For hot tubs, especially outdoor hot tubs, other code listed designations and types are equally important. Many tub brands and/or controller brands routinely require 75 C or 90 C temperature ratings. I am also starting to see a growing number of controllers that require 105 C temperature ratings on conductors. I am also seeing a lot of DIY'ers running uninsulated grounds to outdoor hot tubs or using dry environment only conductors in outdoor, trenched applications ( a huge code no-no ). John

Bear in mind that the use of #8 AWG is predicated on NOT using 60 C rated conductors. HS specifies that you must use conductors with a 75 C temperature rating or higher. The higher rated conductors also happen to have a higher table rated ampacity in the code book for a given conductor size. Personally, I recommend #6 THWN-2 for the 50 amp portion of the run. Yes, it is probably overkill. Better to be over-wired than under-wired. THWN-2 is a 90 C rated conductor with approval for wet environments, which is especially critical if any of your conduit gets trenched. John

Pull the heater wires off the connection points at the heater relay board. John

Inside the IQ2020 control box, there should be two LED's lit on the main board. One is marked "Lim OK" and the other is "Heat On". If those are lit, your main electronics are probable fine. Then you can turn your attention to the heater relay board on the left and the heater itself. See if one of the relays has any burnt areas around it. If so, the heater relay board is bad. Also, check the heater with a VOM through the element. Finally, ground fault test the element with a megger. If the two previously mentioned LED's are lit on the main board, but you do not have line voltage out of the two heater connection points, the heater relay board is bad. John

Probably due to a bad check valve. John

I agree. Most likely, it is a flow issue and not an electrical/electronics issue. John you were right - it stayed on not problem - and I plugged it back in - it tripped again about 1 hour later thanks for the help I appreciate it Probably not the heater. A flashing power light indicates low flow or a hi-limit condition. With the heater unplugged there is no chance for the water inside the heater to get too hot and cause the light to flash. I would still look for the hi-limit sensor to be bad or not enough flow from the circulation pump. Take the filters right out and try resetting the tub and see what happens.

There are a number of possibilities, with a floating neutral, ground fault or insulation breakdown as the most likely culprits. You'll need a real pro to track it, not a ham-and-egger. John

I may be having the temperature problem with my Vanguard which was installed on 10/29. Set temp is 99, but actual temp is 102. Green light is off. Called my dealer and he had no clue and was dismissive of the problem. Spoke to CSR at Watkins who said it may very well be a problem that needs repair. She suggested I wait and see if the temp continues to creep up. I will keep you all posted. Check to see if the 24 hour circ pump is also turned off when this temp spike occurs. If it is, it sounds like summer logic. John

The most likely culprit is a sticking heater relay, but there could be other possibilities. John

IIRC, I believe you need to hit a heat button, followed immediately by either the Jet or Light button, but for the life of me I can't remember which one. John

You have a ground fault somewhere in the tub. Usually, it is a heater or ozonator (if equipped). Do not keep putting power to this particular board or you will damage it and dramatically escalate your repair costs. The proper method of ground fault testing is to isolate each load and ground fault test with a megohmmeter. The 356 is NOT an error code. John

All of you folks that are exhibiting temps that are approximately 2 degrees above set point should try one, simple test. Take something soft that will allow you to prop the cover open about an inch or so, run it for a day and see if the temp runs at set point. If it does, there is nothing wrong with the electronics. If the temps are still skewed a couple of degrees, you have an electronics issue (either sensors and/or controller). I do repair work for two HS dealers and a Caldera dealer, so I see a lot of these tubs. They are so well insulated that they tend to overheat during the warmer weather with the cover in place. The controller logic will sense the over-temp condition and trigger "summer logic", thereby limiting how far it will exceed set point. The heater is actually being disengaged when the tub reaches set point, but heat is still generated by the electrical use of motors and the friction of the water flowing through the pipes. John

The controls and pumps are on one breaker and the heater is by itself on the other. So, from your description, you'll need to put a timer on the 20 amp circuit. If external to the tub, it shouldn't affect the warranty. It's no different that shutting that breaker off. John

Too many variables. Overall, the Tiger River is far superior, but we don't know how each tub may have been used or abused. At a minimum, you at least want to examine them up and running. John

I haven't seen their newer units, so my comments are only about their hydraulic systems, which are very good. If they have the hydraulic swim system in the unit you are considering, I have no problem recommending it. John

Hi Paula, If you live in the Western Pa area, I am a service center for Master Spas. Be happy to help. Please contact Phil at 412-881-6711 Thanks Paula posted above about her problem in 2005 so I think she's probably had to make other arrangements since Master was not helping. Its too bad you weren't here then but we've seen this multiple times with Master (especially with their traveling sales show) so you may be able to help others in the future. I didn't even notice the date. My bad. I saw spahero and roger had responded, so tossed my 2 cents in. John