JerimiahR

Of course the best thing in all cases is to have a licensed electrician perform the installation for you. Granted this costs more money, but at least you're not liable for any code violations this way. And it's the electrician's job to be up to date on all your state and local codes.

I'm assuming you made a typo and meant to say "the more I don't like it." If this company claims they are the only one to pass the CEC's efficiency standards, it's a blatant lie (or they are very uninformed). Anyone can view the list of hot tubs which are currently considered to be within standard. (See the CEC's list at the link below) Hydropool is indeed on the list, but they're most certainly not the only ones. http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/databa...ectric_Spas.zip Not to mention, I doubt they are the only carbon neutral company on the entire planet either. These are pretty grand stand claims.

Maybe it's because I've had no caffeine yet this morning, but I'm not understanding your question. You said the contractor wants to put the GFI on what panel? The standard setup would be a 50amp non-GFCI in your main service panel (in the garage, or where ever your breaker box is). They would then run power to the Subpanel box which must be mounted within sight of the hot tub, but no less than 5ft away from the spa. This box is where they should install the GFCI, and then run [wire] from that to the hot tub. [indicates edit for clarification]

Before you spend the money on a Home Depot subpanel and go through the work of installing it, make sure you know for absolutely sure which hot tub you intend to purchase/install. The Bullfrog Spa and the Hot Spring Vanguard models you've mentioned you're considering both require different wiring schematics. If you end up purchasing the Vanguard, the subpanel it requires is provided with the hot tub. But yes, it needs to be in line of sight, and at least 5 feet from the spa.

You're still welcome to stop by my dealer here in Bozeman. We keep our Vanguard filled and heated all the time. Let me know when you want to stop by and we'll set the hot tub to whatever temperature you prefer. We get semi trucks in our parking lot that deliver product to us, and the Paint Factory in our parking lot. So I think your 5th wheel should be okay if you stop by on your way back to Helena.

Peteyboy is correct. I just wanted to comment, that the $70-$90 hot tub subpanels sold through Home Depot are a 2-pole 50amp GFCI. This will not work with the Hot Spring hot tubs. Hot Spring has designed their system to run the heater on a separate circuit. The great thing about this in the winter, is that if your heater should ever fail (and happen to ground fault) it will only trigger it's own GFCI. The rest of the spa can still circulate and retain power from the second circuit. I've seen some spas saved by this wiring difference. For folks who don't use/attend to their spa daily in the winter months, this can be crucial to the spa's health should you ever have a heater failure.

abc, So did you buy that Aria? I'm curious to see since the price was so cheap.

The Tiger River Bengal is a great hot tub. Heavily insulated, very energy efficient, and requires zero programming (which makes it easy of course). It will probably be more than your $6,000 purchase budget, but will cost you less over the 10 to 20 years you might own it than most spas in the lower price ranges. Sometimes it can pay to actually spend more money on a higher quality hot tub. You can also get the Bengal in a 110/220v model, or a 220v only model. The 220v only model has a waterfall and slightly larger jet pump (this is the standard model). Price difference between the two is probably only $200 to $300 though.

KHJH, My local Sundance competitor was just set up in a Costco store here in town. They had the 2009 Optima on display marked @ $9,399 without Stereo. Not sure if this was unique due to their deal with Costco or not, but in case it helps I thought I'd throw it out there. Granted the cost of business may not be the same here as it is where you are, so prices from state to state are not always the same anyhow.

Generally speaking, the Grandee and Vanguard are really the same spa in two different sizes. The Vanguard is a great 4 to 5 person sized spa, where as the Grandee is 5 to 6. Do you think you'd have 5 people in the spa, simultaneously, or just 4? That's really the difference. Unless of course either of you is like my wife, who likes to soak in a spa without having to touch anyone else (including feet!). Otherwise, the real differences are the water fall (soothing stream vs Bella Fontana) and the fact that the Grandee has 2 double moto massagers, where as the Vanguard has 1 single moto, and 1 double moto. I guess the real question is whether you guys want to soak with the neighbors in your spa, or without. Both deals sound pretty fantastic to me though. I honestly wish I sold those two spas with those kind of packages for that little.

I apologize to you Waylon33, I did not mean to suggest to you that Calspa was going to go out of business. My comment was more of a commentary on the status of Chrysler than anything else. All I meant to convey was the difference in reliability, efficiency, and quality between brands. Sometimes it helps people to have some kind of picture or analogy to help them understand.

Now that's just getting darn right nit picky. I'll congratulate you for defending your brand though. Like I said in the beginning of course, comparing electric bills really is meaningless for the most part. And as you pointed out, even the spa itself will indirectly have some potential affect on electricity use. Albeit, ironically, we had an employee who installed a hot tub and reported after a couple months that her electric bills actually went down quite a bit. Assuredly I'd never market this to anyone. But she attributed her power consumption decrease to the fact that her teenage girls weren't taking 30 minute showers anymore now that the hot tub was installed. So her water heater was seeing drastically less use. Comparing electric bills gives you an idea, but that's about it. And by the way. Don't launder your swim suit or towel each time you use it. It's a complete waste of water, electricity, laundry detergent, and will actually mess up your hot tub's water (foaming anyone?) Just let your swim suit and towel air dry by hanging them up. You'll have a happier hot tub, and won't see your electric bill skyrocket from laundry!

Hi Boots!! Glad to see another Montana resident on the forums! Glad to hear you're loving your Aria so much!

I'm going to second what spatech suggested. His advice here is exactly what I've found to be true even as a salesman. Everyone rates their spas based on how many actually seats there are. Just like auto manufacturers rate seating based on the number of seat belts. We all know it doesn't always work that way. Of course anyone with teenagers knows there are commonly more teens in a care than seat belts, but that's another story. If you want something to actually put 4 adults in, buy a 5 person rated spa. If you're not an "average sized adult" (whatever that may mean) you may want to alter that number accordingly. Let's face it, someone at 6'4" takes up more leg space than someone at 5'5". So you also need to keep that kind of stuff in mind. Ultimately, take your whole family down and sit in the hot tub. Whether it's full of water, or empty just to get an idea on size. A lot of folks in my experience end up buying a size larger after they pile the family in and sit in the spa size they initially wanted.

Let's also keep in mind, it's generally pointless for any of us to say, "Arctic Spas / Hot Spring / Sundance / Brand-X costs $20 a month". Every state around the country (and places in Canada) have different rates for electricity usage. Some places may only charge $0.08/kWh while others can charge $0.11/kWh (some more, some less). Ultimately what it comes down to, is how much energy the spa actually uses (in kWh). The only real way to effectively test this is to actually place an electric meter on the power lines going directly to the spa itself. This way you meter the energy being drawn by the hot tub only. Judging your monthly electric bills before and after hot tub install can give you a general idea, but that's about it. Your monthly electric bill from July 2004 to July 2009 aren't even direct comparisons. It all depends on how much TV you watched, how many lights were on, how long of a shower you took on average that month, etc. Everything plays affect on your bill. This is why Hot Spring as an example, has an energy calculator on their website. And in their brochure they tell you how many kWh a Sovereign model spa will use based on different climates, so you can calculate estimated power consumption based on your actual local utility rates. Now Glid suggested his Artic uses 6kWh per day in July. 6kWh * 31 days = 186kWh per month, at whatever the average mean temperature was for his town. According to this website: http://www.city-data.com/states/New-Hampshire-Climate.html Newhampshire has a daily mean temperature of 70F during July. According to the tables on this document/site: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html New Hampshire's electric rates as of April 2009 were $0.169 (16.9 cents) per kWh. So, 186kWh * 0.169 = $31.434 In other words, if Glid's estimate of 6kWh per day (based on his electric bill) are accurate, it's costing him $31.43 to operate his hot tub during the month of July. Side Note: Although that's a government document listing power rates, I did note the rate given for Montana was incorrect to my knowledge. Last I checked we were a little over $0.10/kWh, the table suggests $0.0865/kWh. Will have to call our power company again and find out what the current rate is in case we've come down

The top side controls is the most up to date Vanguard. You don't have to worry about early or late 2009. The Vanguard was the first model to receive the changes this year. $10,000 for a new 2009 Vanguard, with delivery, & cover lifter, and steps is a good deal. The fact that you're also getting the stone surround and moonlight music on top of that, blows my mind. I don't know how they can do that. I'd say go for it. Also, between Hot Spring and CalSpa, there really is no choice to be made. You're talking buying a Lexus (Toyota reliability with luxury added) versus a Chrysler product (whom Consumer Reports rates low on reliability and won't even be made anymore). Some folks may not like my visual comparison there, but that's tough. No offense if you happen to own a Chrysler product (used to drive a Dodge truck myself). There's no similarity between CalSpa and Hot Spring. Not to mention, I'm confident the Vanguard will cost a lot less to operate than the CalSpa would when it comes to upkeep and electricity. If you're comfortable with that Hot Spring dealer, that's also very important. These are the folks you'll rely on for future questions and support should you need it. EDIT: Oh, and yes Freshwater III Ozone is standard on all Hot Spring models.

I think you're reading your electric bill incorrectly, or you have made a typo when you typed your claim of 6kWh per month. That's not quite possible. http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_...efficiency.html If you check out the link above, you'll see that even a Hot Spring Spa (which many, many folks will agree is a very efficient hot tub) uses 117kWh a month with an ambient temperature of 75F. This is based on Hot Spring's Sovereign model. If a spa like that uses 117kWh in Miami, FL @ 75F, there's no way anything could use as little as 6kWh a month unless the only thing in the hot tub using any power were the lights. At 6kWh your spa would cost you $0.48 a month to operate if the electric company charged you $0.08 per kWh. My guess is you simply misunderstood the abbreviations for power use terms like kWh. But rest assured, your spa uses many more than 6kWh. To put this into perspective, my entire house from June to July (1 month) used 928kWh without an air conditioner or furnace running.

It's not the right spa for everyone. We sell a ton of them though. The Jetsetter, albeit more expensive, looks like it's most similar to the other models you listed. Although it will cost more to purchase, I can pretty much guarantee you it'll cost you less to own, operate, and maintain over the years. The way the Hot Spring spas are insulated will save you a bunch on heating and such, not to mention the 24 hour circulation system. You'll actually be able to filter 24/7, without any programming, and save money on your electric bill. And since Hot Spring does not use their jet pump to cycle water for heating and filtration, you'll also save a lot of use/wear on your jet pump. Ultimately, your pump will last a lot longer. Do a little research on the Hot Spring brand and see what you think. It's worth spending the extra money in my opinion.

Considering the Hot Spring is quite a bit less money, I'd definitely go that direction. Even if they were equal, or the Hot Spring more, personally I think Hot Spring is the better product compared with Sundance. Both are very good quality spas, so you really can't go completely wrong either direction. They are both pretty well insulated, and should run pretty efficient. My experience has been that the Vanguard would be the more efficient running of the two though. I also like the filtration system difference with the Hot Spring. I spent some quality time with an Optima about two days ago as my Sundance competitor was having a sale over at Costco. I wasn't into the way the seats were formed and such. But that ultimately comes down to opinion and comfort for the individual. Like I said though, both are good hot tubs. If you can get a 2008 Vanguard though, the controls for the tub are about as simple to use as you can get. No programming what so ever, runs silent & filters 24/7. Also depending on your desire for seating arrangements, the Vanguard has a pretty open bench like seating style. The seats sit pretty comfortable, but they're basically barrier free. So you can move around very easily.

Markley, everyone will claim their spa is the most efficient. Not even kidding. You'll want to ask for something to help support that claim. And as far as gallons per minute goes, who cares? Feel the jets. If the pumps are 100gpm versus 185gpm doesn't matter if one spa had 30 jets and the other has 150 jets. Test the jets, feel them with your hand AT LEAST. If you can sit in the spa, test soak in it. Remember, those with the biggest jet pumps, will use more electricity as well. So don't simply accept that they're the most efficient, and the most powerful. There's to many factors in between. Insulation is a big deal, how the plumbing and jets are designed has affect on jet pressure, etc. You mentioned you were impressed with Hot Springs. I'm super glad to hear that as a Hot Spring dealer myself. Keep in mind though, you will spend more on a Hot Spring (or similar quality spa) but you'll get a better quality product, and generally a more efficient spa as well. More quality and research & development goes into a spa like Hot Spring than many of the inexpensive brands. Like with everything else, you always get a little bit of what you pay for. Ultimately though, I'd buy a spa you actually have a local dealer for. Having local support is a big deal if you ever have any problems. I try to help folks stay away from online hot tub orders, simply because they generally have a more difficult time obtaining parts or service later if they need it. BTW: I looked up that Hydropool Serenity Model 4000. Based on the size and layout of that, here's a couple Hot Spring models you might consider looking at. The Hot Spring Jetsetter, Tiger River Sumatran, or Limelight Glow. Each of those are 3-4 person sized. The Sumatran should be pretty close to your price range but doesn't have a 'lounge' type seat in it. The Jetsetter is my personal favorite model. Fantastic couples spa. Will seat 2 to 3 adults (2 most comfortably of course). This will be a little higher than your $6,000 budget though. Check with your dealer though on what they'll sell you one for if you like it.

Not familiar with Sunrise Spas at all. There are a lot of small hot tub companies these days though, so not a surprise. Generally speaking, I'd shop for a local dealer of one of the major hot tub manufacturers. You'll usually find a much better quality product, better energy efficiency, etc. I'd be looking at something like Hot Spring & Sundance in your area, as they'll deal with colder climates well.

Those prices actually look good. Honestly a little bit less than what I sell them for. Although I'm assuming the 09 Envoy was a typo. I'm guessing that was $9995? You wrote $995. Unless you really, really want a stereo built into your hot tub, it's far cheaper to buy a stereo system and mount outdoor speakers. But some folks just really want a built in system.

Costco is a stand up company. I shop there weekly, and love their return policy and such. They're a no hassle company for their members. Now and again you can find good stuff there, for instance my Sundance competitor was on display in Costco this last week. Aside from them, I personally wouldn't buy a hot tub through Costco. They tend to be very inexpensive spas, and as such simply cannot have the same quality parts, Research & Development, etc. And unfortunately, I've had too many folks tell me their own bad stories about difficulties with getting support for the spa they bought through Costco. The great thing of course, is that Costco requires their vendors to take returns (or at least Costco takes them). I'd buy a TV from Costco any day though. And their packaged Corn on the Cob is surprisingly very good.

As far as Bullfrog's Jetpacks, I think they're a great marketing tool. However, having had our Bullfrog dealer go out of business locally, I've had the occasion to talk to several Bullfrog owners over the last several months. Generally speaking, people seem to agree that they never really move the Jetpacks around, nor do they replace and upgrade them. As far as the smell/scum issue you asked about. Bullfrog did indeed have issues with stagnant water behind the jetpacks, and put in a little tube behind the packs which squirts water behind them. In theory, this would help create some water movement. In reality, Bullfrog owners tell me they still do have to clean behind the jetpacks when they drain & refill the spa to make sure there's no build up behind them. So it's just something to keep in mind. As far as lounge seats go, don't buy one unless you know you like them. They're sort of a 50/50 thing. Some folks come into my store and tell me they specifically want one. Others who aren't sure, I try not to push a lounge on them. Most folks after owning a spa, will tell you they either like the lounge, or never use it. Some folks float out of lounges, some people don't so much. You really have to sit in a couple lounge chairs (full of water) to figure that out. Were it me, I would look at Hot Spring specifically, and if not that I'd look at Sundance next. That's my opinion based on my experience. Though I'm very partial to Hot Spring, both because I sell/work with it, but also because I truly believe it's the best product all around.

Peteyboy: I primarily do the sales end of things here, so I don't get out to deliver a whole lot. But from the times I have, I think it would do fairly well. I think you've got a good 5 inches or more of clearance under the Spadolly cart. We actually had a delivery I helped our guys with that involved packed snow, grass, and rock stepping stones & a concrete slab. Even with the bumping and repeated shoves to get the wheels up over stone edges the cart did great. And that was with an Envoy standing up on it's side (vertical). Course to be safe, we had 4 of us there initially to place the spa, and then sent two of the guys on their way as soon as we had it placed properly. Had this been a smoother terrain we may well have done a 2 man delivery. But that Spadolly cart makes our deliveries such a piece of cake compared to what they really could be. In the winter, we often use a big sled. We've got a large sheet of plastic with rope handles on both ends of it. We can stand the spa up on its sheet of plastic, and pull it over packed snow. That's pretty darn slick sometimes.