Chem Geek Any Experience With Brilliance

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I was wondering if you had delt with or heard of any experieces with the Brilliance 100% chlorine free sanitizing system. We have been using it since May and it has been great, but I was wondering on long term use if you had heard or predict any issues. I will describe it....Floater with 1,3-dibromo-5,5-dimethythydantoin 99.4% Available bromine 111%. This comes in a broken/chipped form and takes a special feeder so it does not fall out. You start the tub with sodium bromide, adjust the calcium hardness to 200-400, use a stain and scale product and oxidize. Weekly you oxidize and add stain and scale adjust PH and fill feeder. This system tends to drop the alkalinity weekly(slightly), but the PH stays within the ok paramiters even when you pull the Alk back up. Water changes are suggested every 3 months, 2 with heavy use. What we have noticed is at about the second month in, the bromine level starts to get high, we keep turning the feeder down. 2 and a half months in the feeder is off, tub stays ok with the bromine level and when we add MPS it goes high for a couple of days (reestabllishing the bromine). I guess this is a good thing, use very little chemical, but the high bromine makes me a bit nervous. This system also has mineral salts an the PH adjusters and soy protein in the clarifier and stain and scale. My question is...Do you think the higher bromine can hurt people and or the tub. No one is ever itchy or has dry skin. No nasel or eye irritation unless you push the tub to 6 months before water changes (I tried this to see what would happen since I know a lot of customers will try to push it up here in the winter months before water changes). Do you think if we leave out the bromide at the intial start it would help with the later issue of high bromine levels? Thanks for your input.

[tony]

I was wondering if you had delt with or heard of any experieces with the Brilliance 100% chlorine free sanitizing system. We have been using it since May and it has been great, but I was wondering on long term use if you had heard or predict any issues. I will describe it....Floater with 1,3-dibromo-5,5-dimethythydantoin 99.4% Available bromine 111%. This comes in a broken/chipped form and takes a special feeder so it does not fall out. You start the tub with sodium bromide, adjust the calcium hardness to 200-400, use a stain and scale product and oxidize. Weekly you oxidize and add stain and scale adjust PH and fill feeder. This system tends to drop the alkalinity weekly(slightly), but the PH stays within the ok paramiters even when you pull the Alk back up. Water changes are suggested every 3 months, 2 with heavy use. What we have noticed is at about the second month in, the bromine level starts to get high, we keep turning the feeder down. 2 and a half months in the feeder is off, tub stays ok with the bromine level and when we add MPS it goes high for a couple of days (reestabllishing the bromine). I guess this is a good thing, use very little chemical, but the high bromine makes me a bit nervous. This system also has mineral salts an the PH adjusters and soy protein in the clarifier and stain and scale. My question is...Do you think the higher bromine can hurt people and or the tub. No one is ever itchy or has dry skin. No nasel or eye irritation unless you push the tub to 6 months before water changes (I tried this to see what would happen since I know a lot of customers will try to push it up here in the winter months before water changes). Do you think if we leave out the bromide at the intial start it would help with the later issue of high bromine levels? Thanks for your input.

Chas, one of the moderators on this forum is a Brilliance supporter. If I were to use bromine, I would use this system.

[chem geek]

Specifically with Brilliance, no I don't have specific posts of experience I remember one way or the other.

There are basically two types of bromine tablet systems. One uses 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH) which essentially has both bromine and chlorine released from it so the chlorine activates additional bromide that is in the water. The other uses 1,3-Dibromo-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (DBDMH) which has two bromine released (and no chlorine) and is the one you are describing. With either tablet, you start off adding sodium bromide to create a bromide "bank" in the water, then add some oxidizer (MPS or chlorine) to activate some of the bromide by converting it to bromine.

Both systems end up with the same amount of bromine disinfectant since the first one's chlorine activates bromide already in the water to bromine so you end up with the same amount of bromine concentration in both systems. The main difference is that the DBDMH that you are talking about will add more total bromine/bromide to the spa so that the bromine/bromide level will increase faster with that system. With BCDMH, you will add to the bromine/bromide half as fast, all else equal (since half of the bromine comes from bromide already in the water). Of course, one can simply tune the feeder to introduce the amount you need, but the way to look at it is that BCDMH adds a mix of bromine and "activator of bromine" while DBDMH adds twice the bromine amount.

DBDMH ...... Bromine Chlorine Bromide Chloride

.............. HOBr .. HOCl ... Br^- ... Cl^-

Dissolving .... +2 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ... NOTE: Same Bromine as with BCDMH

Usage ......... -2 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0

NET ............ 0 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0 ... NOTE: More Bromide buildup compared to BCDMH

BCDMH ...... Bromine Chlorine Bromide Chloride

.............. HOBr .. HOCl ... Br^- ... Cl^-

Dissolving .... +1 .... +1 ..... 0 ..... 0 ... NOTE: Brief Chlorine could form chlorinated disinfection by-products

Activating .... +1 .... -1 .... -1 .... +1

NET ........... +2 ..... 0 .... -1 .... +1 ... NOTE: Same Bromine as with DBDMH

Usage ......... -2 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0

NET ............ 0 ..... 0 .... +1 .... +1 ... NOTE: Less Bromide buildup compared to DBDMH

So if a buildup of the bromine/bromide bank is an issue (but it really shouldn't be a problem), then you need to turn down the DBDMH feeder earlier, but then will need to shock more frequently since you still need to activate enough bromine to keep the bromine level fairly constant. I would think that the BCDMH would have less of an issue as it would build up the bromine/bromide bank half as fast. I would not leave out the initial bromide since you need it early on to have enough bromine (the tablets dissolve slowly so initially you have to add bromide plus shock to produce the initial bromine). Having a lot of bromide in the water is not a problem -- it's similar to having a lot of chloride (salt). The bromine level can be maintained through the amount of tablet that gets dissolved and the amount and frequency of shock that is used.

The main advantage to DBDMH when used with MPS for shocking is that it is chlorine free so there are no chlorinated disinfection by-products (DBPs) produced, but in practice this is a very minor effect since the chlorine in BCDMH will activate bromide to bromine faster than it will form DBPs. If you use an ozonator with bromine, then this can produce bromates which are a possible carcinogen, but probably a low risk since you aren't drinking the spa water. Bromine can form brominated DBPs but unless you are drinking the water, these normally aren't of as much concern as some of the more volatile chlorinated DBPs such as nitrogen trichloride.

Note that in a bromine spa, you have disinfection from the bromine, but not as much oxidation as with chlorine. Bromamines will form from the ammonia in sweat, but these are also effective disinfectants (unlike chloramine) but will not get full oxidized to nitrogen gas so periodic shocking (usually with MPS) is required. Some people are sensitive to bromine (more so than chlorine) and bromine smells different.

There may be other differences such as the rate of dissolving that I am not aware of. Basically, you can deal with either system by adjusting the feeder rate and the amount and frequency of shocking you do ("shock" can be either chlorine of MPS as either one will reactivate bromide to bromine; MPS has the advantage of oxidizing some organics better than chlorine and avoiding disinfection by-products).

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Specifically with Brilliance, no I don't have specific posts of experience I remember one way or the other.

There are basically two types of bromine tablet systems. One uses 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (BCDMH) which essentially has both bromine and chlorine released from it so the chlorine activates additional bromide that is in the water. The other uses 1,3-Dibromo-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (DBDMH) which has two bromine released (and no chlorine) and is the one you are describing. With either tablet, you start off adding sodium bromide to create a bromide "bank" in the water, then add some oxidizer (MPS or chlorine) to activate some of the bromide by converting it to bromine.

Both systems end up with the same amount of bromine disinfectant since the first one's chlorine activates bromide already in the water to bromine so you end up with the same amount of bromine concentration in both systems. The main difference is that the DBDMH that you are talking about will add more total bromine/bromide to the spa so that the bromine/bromide level will increase faster with that system. With BCDMH, you will add to the bromine/bromide half as fast, all else equal (since half of the bromine comes from bromide already in the water). Of course, one can simply tune the feeder to introduce the amount you need, but the way to look at it is that BCDMH adds a mix of bromine and "activator of bromine" while DBDMH adds twice the bromine amount.

DBDMH ...... Bromine Chlorine Bromide Chloride

.............. HOBr .. HOCl ... Br^- ... Cl^-

Dissolving .... +2 ..... 0 ..... 0 ..... 0 ... NOTE: Same Bromine as with BCDMH

Usage ......... -2 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0

NET ............ 0 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0 ... NOTE: More Bromide buildup compared to BCDMH

BCDMH ...... Bromine Chlorine Bromide Chloride

.............. HOBr .. HOCl ... Br^- ... Cl^-

Dissolving .... +1 .... +1 ..... 0 ..... 0 ... NOTE: Brief Chlorine could form chlorinated disinfection by-products

Activating .... +1 .... -1 .... -1 .... +1

NET ........... +2 ..... 0 .... -1 .... +1 ... NOTE: Same Bromine as with DBDMH

Usage ......... -2 ..... 0 .... +2 ..... 0

NET ............ 0 ..... 0 .... +1 .... +1 ... NOTE: Less Bromide buildup compared to DBDMH

So if a buildup of the bromine/bromide bank is an issue (but it really shouldn't be a problem), then you need to turn down the DBDMH feeder earlier, but then will need to shock more frequently since you still need to activate enough bromine to keep the bromine level fairly constant. I would think that the BCDMH would have less of an issue as it would build up the bromine/bromide bank half as fast. I would not leave out the initial bromide since you need it early on to have enough bromine (the tablets dissolve slowly so initially you have to add bromide plus shock to produce the initial bromine). Having a lot of bromide in the water is not a problem -- it's similar to having a lot of chloride (salt). The bromine level can be maintained through the amount of tablet that gets dissolved and the amount and frequency of shock that is used.

The main advantage to DBDMH when used with MPS for shocking is that it is chlorine free so there are no chlorinated disinfection by-products (DBPs) produced, but in practice this is a very minor effect since the chlorine in BCDMH will activate bromide to bromine faster than it will form DBPs. If you use an ozonator with bromine, then this can produce bromates which are a possible carcinogen, but probably a low risk since you aren't drinking the spa water. Bromine can form brominated DBPs but unless you are drinking the water, these normally aren't of as much concern as some of the more volatile chlorinated DBPs such as nitrogen trichloride.

Note that in a bromine spa, you have disinfection from the bromine, but not as much oxidation as with chlorine. Bromamines will form from the ammonia in sweat, but these are also effective disinfectants (unlike chloramine) but will not get full oxidized to nitrogen gas so periodic shocking (usually with MPS) is required. Some people are sensitive to bromine (more so than chlorine) and bromine smells different.

There may be other differences such as the rate of dissolving that I am not aware of. Basically, you can deal with either system by adjusting the feeder rate and the amount and frequency of shocking you do ("shock" can be either chlorine of MPS as either one will reactivate bromide to bromine; MPS has the advantage of oxidizing some organics better than chlorine and avoiding disinfection by-products).

Richard

I forgot to say I have ozone 24/7. Also as a note. The bromine smell is very very slight if at all with this system. It is totally different than the smell from "trditional" bromine tablets. Maybe because of the lack of chlorine it makes a difference on the smell.

[chem geek]

I forgot to say I have ozone 24/7. Also as a note. The bromine smell is very very slight if at all with this system. It is totally different than the smell from "trditional" bromine tablets. Maybe because of the lack of chlorine it makes a difference on the smell.

The smell is probably not the "clean" smell of fresh chlorine since it is barely noticeable and not offensive when dilute. So it sounds like the chlorine in BCDMH tablets may react with ammonia/urea in the tub forming monochloramine which smells and is the traditional "poorly maintained pool" smell. I know that this reaction takes only seconds, but I don't know how long it takes chlorine to "reactivate" bromide to bromine but suspect it takes longer (either that or your bromide bank is too low -- i.e. not enough sodium bromide was added initially). Since the DBDMH tablets have no chlorine, there is no monochloramine to smell. There will be monobromamine (bromine combined with ammonia), but this doesn't appear to smell as much (I can't find the volatility for it, however).

With the bromine-only system using DBDMH, you absolutely have to shock regularly with a non-chlorine shock to get rid of the ammonia/urea and monobromamine since bromine will not get rid of it. Remember the rough rule of 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoon) of MPS per person-hour in 350 gallons.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I forgot to say I have ozone 24/7. Also as a note. The bromine smell is very very slight if at all with this system. It is totally different than the smell from "trditional" bromine tablets. Maybe because of the lack of chlorine it makes a difference on the smell.

The smell is probably not the "clean" smell of fresh chlorine since it is barely noticeable and not offensive when dilute. So it sounds like the chlorine in BCDMH tablets may react with ammonia/urea in the tub forming monochloramine which smells and is the traditional "poorly maintained pool" smell. I know that this reaction takes only seconds, but I don't know how long it takes chlorine to "reactivate" bromide to bromine but suspect it takes longer (either that or your bromide bank is too low -- i.e. not enough sodium bromide was added initially). Since the DBDMH tablets have no chlorine, there is no monochloramine to smell. There will be monobromamine (bromine combined with ammonia), but this doesn't appear to smell as much (I can't find the volatility for it, however).

With the bromine-only system using DBDMH, you absolutely have to shock regularly with a non-chlorine shock to get rid of the ammonia/urea and monobromamine since bromine will not get rid of it. Remember the rough rule of 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoon) of MPS per person-hour in 350 gallons.

Richard

They suggest with this system for a 500 gallon tub, 1 ounce of MPS per week, under normal use, every other day under heavy use. I shock once per week, 1-2 people 5 out of 7 nights a week use. Ozone 24/7. Crystal clear water, no smell (smells like clean sping water) don't have that bromine smell on my skin when I get out and no foam. I just have issues with the bromine level going sky high when I shock with MPS, and it stays on the high side through the week. I have had the feeder off so I am not adding more bromine. I guess I can't complain, keeps my chemical costs down just have a fear of getting to much bromine in my skin.

[chem geek]

They suggest with this system for a 500 gallon tub, 1 ounce of MPS per week, under normal use, every other day under heavy use. I shock once per week, 1-2 people 5 out of 7 nights a week use. Ozone 24/7. Crystal clear water, no smell (smells like clean sping water) don't have that bromine smell on my skin when I get out and no foam. I just have issues with the bromine level going sky high when I shock with MPS, and it stays on the high side through the week. I have had the feeder off so I am not adding more bromine. I guess I can't complain, keeps my chemical costs down just have a fear of getting to much bromine in my skin.

What I quoted would be if there was no ozonator. With an ozonator, there might not be a need for MPS at all. I am surprised that the ozonator itself doesn't keep the bromine levels up. Maybe it does, but not by too much. In theory, if the ozonator is producing enough ozone, then it should reactivate bromide to bromine, but since it isn't adjustable I'm not sure how you properly maintain the right level. Maybe it only reactivates a relatively small amount so the MPS you add is your "variable" that you can adjust. If I assume 1.5 people for 5 nights and 20 minutes soak per night, then that is 2.5 person-hours which would need 17.5 teaspoons or almost 3 ounces volume of MPS. So the ozone is probably handling some of the oxidation of ammonia/urea for you and maybe you don't even need to use that much MPS anyway since you've got the ozonator. 1 ounce volume of MPS in 500 gallons would raise the bromine level by 4.2 ppm. Is that the kind of increase in bromine levels you are seeing after adding MPS?

The main reason to use tablets is that bromine does outgas over time so the bromide bank does get depleted, but it sounds like you've built yours up enough so that you can turn off your feeder (at least for now).

[waterbear]

DBDMH systems are essestially 2 step bromine systems since the tablets do not contain any type of oxidizer. It must be added separately. They will build up the bromine bank faster and are probably more useful in a system that has ozone since that insures a constant oxidizer supply to the water.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

They suggest with this system for a 500 gallon tub, 1 ounce of MPS per week, under normal use, every other day under heavy use. I shock once per week, 1-2 people 5 out of 7 nights a week use. Ozone 24/7. Crystal clear water, no smell (smells like clean sping water) don't have that bromine smell on my skin when I get out and no foam. I just have issues with the bromine level going sky high when I shock with MPS, and it stays on the high side through the week. I have had the feeder off so I am not adding more bromine. I guess I can't complain, keeps my chemical costs down just have a fear of getting to much bromine in my skin.

What I quoted would be if there was no ozonator. With an ozonator, there might not be a need for MPS at all. I am surprised that the ozonator itself doesn't keep the bromine levels up. Maybe it does, but not by too much. In theory, if the ozonator is producing enough ozone, then it should reactivate bromide to bromine, but since it isn't adjustable I'm not sure how you properly maintain the right level. Maybe it only reactivates a relatively small amount so the MPS you add is your "variable" that you can adjust. If I assume 1.5 people for 5 nights and 20 minutes soak per night, then that is 2.5 person-hours which would need 17.5 teaspoons or almost 3 ounces volume of MPS. So the ozone is probably handling some of the oxidation of ammonia/urea for you and maybe you don't even need to use that much MPS anyway since you've got the ozonator. 1 ounce volume of MPS in 500 gallons would raise the bromine level by 4.2 ppm. Is that the kind of increase in bromine levels you are seeing after adding MPS?

The main reason to use tablets is that bromine does outgas over time so the bromide bank does get depleted, but it sounds like you've built yours up enough so that you can turn off your feeder (at least for now).

My bromine level will be at 4, when I shock with 1 ounce MPS it goes to about 18 and takes all week to drop back to 4, this only happens about 2 months after the intial water change, I change water every 3 (sometimes I wait 4) months. This tubs ozone is a mazzi injected balboa bulb type that runs even when we use the tub (we have not changed the dip switch on board to correct this yet)

Like I said, I really love this sysyem, no PH issues, no cloudy foamy water, no bad or chemcal smells, but I was worried about "over brominating' my body! Maybe I should leave out the weekly MPS and see what happens. I just don't want cloudy water, a major pet peeve of mine!