Throat Irritation, Coughing... Nature2, Mps, Dichlor?

[us5camp]

Hello All,

New spa owners, bought home with 500gal indoor cal spa. Just getting it started.

Using a Nature2 mineral santicizer stick, MPS for shock and dichlor. Tub also has brand new ozonator.

When you fire the spa up, each person that comes in the room begins coughing periodically and I also feel a slight irritation in the throught.

I have been reading and calling our hot tub dealer and have not licked the irritation.

Cal Spa dealer, has recommended the following for daily/weekly type maint....

dichlor after each use, MPS for shock 1-2 times/wk

This seems to be direct opposite of Nature2 directions which use MPS at each use and dichlor for periodic shocks.

Cal Spa dealer said to shock more often as this irritation is likely chloramines.

So, we've been using MPS at each use and dichlor as 1x/wk shock.

What are your thoughts?

a) what's causing the irritation? What to do about it?

preferred treatment, role of dichlor vs MPS ?? Which should be our primary chemical at/after each use, MPS or dichlor, considering we're running a Nature 2 mineral stick and have a working ozonator. ???

Also getting some decent amount of foam, dealer says this is a sign of other issues, for which more shock was prescribed. So, thoughts on foam too? Use anti-foam, or what's the chemical problem that's causing foam and what to do about it?

Thx,

Sorry for the long post

[chem geek]

How much Dichlor were you using daily and how much MPS are you using daily now? How many people use the spa daily and how long do they soak? Every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) spa requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor in order to oxidize bather waste or about 7 teaspoons of MPS. However, these amounts would be with no ozonator. If your ozonator is functioning properly, then less of these chemicals might be needed. These amounts are independent of spa size.

[us5camp]

How much Dichlor were you using daily and how much MPS are you using daily now? How many people use the spa daily and how long do they soak? Every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) spa requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor in order to oxidize bather waste or about 7 teaspoons of MPS. However, these amounts would be with no ozonator. If your ozonator is functioning properly, then less of these chemicals might be needed. These amounts are independent of spa size.

The Cal-Spa Maintenance Sheet called for:

* 1-2 teaspoons of Dichlor after each use (or 1oz or 1/2 cap)

* 2oz or 1 cap of MPS 1/wk, 2 if necessary.

We only use the spa every 2-3 days, sometimes every day. Normally it's me alone or me and 3 kids. My wife will not use the tub if it's at all irritating as she's always been a little gun shy of chlorine and pools. So, we're not off to a good start. We had been doing the above and get the cough, throught tickle.

So... started researching on the net and on Nature2's site and they recommend MPS after each use and Dichlor on a less frequent basiss, so now we are questioning what is right?

So, right now, I don't know if I should be using more MPS, or more Dichlor or ??? to solve this.

[General Beluga]

How much Dichlor were you using daily and how much MPS are you using daily now? How many people use the spa daily and how long do they soak? Every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) spa requires about 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor in order to oxidize bather waste or about 7 teaspoons of MPS. However, these amounts would be with no ozonator. If your ozonator is functioning properly, then less of these chemicals might be needed. These amounts are independent of spa size.

The Cal-Spa Maintenance Sheet called for:

* 1-2 teaspoons of Dichlor after each use (or 1oz or 1/2 cap)

* 2oz or 1 cap of MPS 1/wk, 2 if necessary.

We only use the spa every 2-3 days, sometimes every day. Normally it's me alone or me and 3 kids. My wife will not use the tub if it's at all irritating as she's always been a little gun shy of chlorine and pools. So, we're not off to a good start. We had been doing the above and get the cough, throught tickle.

So... started researching on the net and on Nature2's site and they recommend MPS after each use and Dichlor on a less frequent basiss, so now we are questioning what is right?

So, right now, I don't know if I should be using more MPS, or more Dichlor or ??? to solve this.

There is a lot of information on this board addressing the proper way to balance spa chemistry. Chem Geek is the resident expert, so listen to whatever advise he gives you. He has helped me resolve a similar problem and I will share what I did to fix my spa irritation issues.

I have a Sundance spa about 400 gals and I use it about 3 times a week. It has an ozonator and I use Nature2. Keeping it simple, here is what I recommend you do:

First, you must get your spa chemistry balanced right. I recommend that you buy a Taylor test kit as well and the MPS test strips. Use the Taylor kit for FCI, PH, ALK and CH balancing and the MPS test strips for MPS levels. Chem Geek may disagree but, it works for me and I use the test strips only occasionally during high periods of usage to assure that the MPS level is adequate.

Getting your calcium level right is a good starting place. Check it out and if it is below 100, buy a calcium booster at your local spa or pool supply store (about $6.00) and add it a little at a time to get it in the 100 to 150 zone.

The next step is getting the alkalinity level correct. It needs to be between 80 and 100. If is is too low add baking soda until it is at the correct level. If it is too high, add dry acid (PH Down - purchased at your local spa store) and add it a little at a time (mixing it with water in a separate bucket, then adding it to your spa with the jets on full) until the PH drops to about 7. Then turn on your spa jets and blower on high and aerate the water for about 30 to 45 minutes. This will bring the PH back up without changing the alkalinity level very much. Work slowly and allow half a day or longer between adding/checking chemicals so the spa has a chance to adjust to the changes.

Once you get it balanced, the rest becomes easier. When using the Nature2 product, most experts on this board recommend that you keep a minimum level of chlorine (about 0.5) at all times to sanitize your spa and prevent bacteria growth. Here is my spa routine assuming two people soaking for 20 minutes: About 5 minutes before my wife and I go in, I add one once (two tbls) of MPS and turn on the jets to mix the solution. When we are done, I add a teaspoon of dichlor/20 min soak tme, to keep the FCI level's at the minimum. Once a week I toss about three tablespoons of dichlor in the spa with the jets on high and the cover off for about 20 minutes. You will need to experiment a little with the level of MPS/dichlor to use as there are a lot of variables that may make your useage more or less.

The trick when adding chemicals is to add a little at a time and wait several hours before re-checking. If you don't allow time for them to mix together, you will end up chasing your tail and never getting it right! Hopefully, Chem Geek will add some further good advise but, in any case, good luck with you spa and have fun!

[chem geek]

I think the advice just given is fine. It does seem that perhaps you weren't using enough sanitizer. As was mentioned, make sure you measure at least a small residual FC by the next time you soak. I suspect it's getting to zero and either letting bacteria grow or building up chloramines. What is strange is that a functioning ozonator should be keeping chloramines in check, but one person soaking for, say, 20 minutes would need a little more than 1 teaspoon of Dichlor, but 3 people would need 3-1/2 teaspoons. So you aren't using enough Dichlor when your kids are soaking, but again you can just get a sense for this by ensuring you add enough chlorine to always measure some residual.

Note that if you only use Dichlor, then over time the level of sanitation will get reduced. Since you have N2 you could probably get away with using more MPS in place of Dichlor, but note that you have to use about twice as much by volume for equivalency to Dichlor. There is another approach that Nitro wrote up here involving Dichlor initially and then switching to using bleach, but I fear that with your ozonator you may find the tendency for the pH to rise to be too strong even if you have a low TA as recommended by the approach -- but it's something to try and if it doesn't work out it's easily switched back to using Dichlor and/or MPS. Up to you.

[us5camp]

Hello All,

New spa owners, bought home with 500gal indoor cal spa. Just getting it started.

Using a Nature2 mineral santicizer stick, MPS for shock and dichlor. Tub also has brand new ozonator.

When you fire the spa up, each person that comes in the room begins coughing periodically and I also feel a slight irritation in the throught.

I have been reading and calling our hot tub dealer and have not licked the irritation.

Cal Spa dealer, has recommended the following for daily/weekly type maint....

dichlor after each use, MPS for shock 1-2 times/wk

This seems to be direct opposite of Nature2 directions which use MPS at each use and dichlor for periodic shocks.

Cal Spa dealer said to shock more often as this irritation is likely chloramines.

So, we've been using MPS at each use and dichlor as 1x/wk shock.

What are your thoughts?

a) what's causing the irritation? What to do about it?

preferred treatment, role of dichlor vs MPS ?? Which should be our primary chemical at/after each use, MPS or dichlor, considering we're running a Nature 2 mineral stick and have a working ozonator. ???

Also getting some decent amount of foam, dealer says this is a sign of other issues, for which more shock was prescribed. So, thoughts on foam too? Use anti-foam, or what's the chemical problem that's causing foam and what to do about it?

Thx,

Sorry for the long post

OK, so here's an update and (unfortunately, many) new questions.

Still have the cough that affects all 4 of us; so have scaled back usage until I get this under control.

Recall, only filled spa 3.5wks ago after sitting empty for 3yrs. The spa is a 1997, 500 gal Cal Spa.

Working (NEW) Ozonator, N2 Mineral Santicizer, dichlor & MPS.

Everything was apparently going fine until about a wk after filling we started to notice a cough when using the spa or in the room with the jets running.

Was also getting plenty of foam.

* I scraped off all the excess foam I could, added 4tbs dichlor & 4tbs MPS.

* this brought the Saticizer and MPS levels off the charts, which is what I was after to see if this cough was bacteria or chloramines related.

* Calcium Hardness - bought strips to test. Came back 50-75, so added Calcium Boost to bring it up. Can't tell exactly from the strip, but somewhere between 150-250 judging by the color, though it looks a little pale, but seems to be in the correct hue.

* After shocking w/dichlor & MPS and adding Calcium boost 3 days later, foam is not a problem.

* Which brings me to test kits, I'd love to purchase a liquid reagent test kit like a TF Test Kit , but it's been about -25degF around here lately and worry about mail order of reagents as freezing won't do them any good. So, in this rural town, I do not as of yet, have a test kit.

* CYA - I see this mentioned all over this board, but why is it so abscent from mainstream discussion? I have NO idea what mine is, but do know I need to find out.

* Cover - My primary spa dealer believes the cough may be related to the old cover on our spa. I don't know the exact spa cover age, but it may be an original cover. Dealer thinks we may have activated mold or something in the cover that's causing the cough. Thoughts?

- New Cover from local dealer = $450+

- Thoughts on the cover causing the coughing?

- GOOD online cover source?

* SpaBright - Haven't used any yet, understand the principle of causing particles to bind to allow the filter to take them out, but what's the downside? Seems there's a downside to each spa chemical. What's the preferred spa brightener chemical?

* Enzymes - My dealer did not propose use, talked to another dealer who says you need to / should use enzymes. Upside / downside?

* Chemicals, Chemicals, Chemicals.... I've been trying to figure out what chemicals are 'needed' w/o having a chemical for every ailment.

So... here's where I'm at.

* After shocking spa and raising Cal Hardness up to acceptable range,

- pH appears to be low (nearest I can tell from a selection of sh_tty test strips), near 6.8 or 7 or ??

- Alk has dropped to 40-50

- best method for raising Alk?, which I understand needs to be corrected before worrying about pH.

- how much baking soda? or ??

* Drain/Refill - though the tub has only been full for 3.5 wks, thinking of draining as it was empty for 3yrs prior to this.

- Will follow HillBilly Hot Tub's list here

- along with a jet/flush product.

* So, cover or water flush or both? If we don't get the cough figured out, might as well break out the chainsaw and turn the room into a pool room.

[chem geek]

I'm sorry you're still having the cough. Hillbilly Hot Tub's decontamination procedure will help with the spa, but if the problem is with the cover then that's different. If there's a way for you to take off the cover for a bit and see if being near it makes you cough, perhaps that can help isolate the problem and see if you need the cover replaced (assuming it can't be decontaminated).

The increased Calcium Hardness probably helped with the foam -- it usually needs to be around 100-120 ppm to keep foam in check and usually shouldn't be higher than 150 ppm in a spa in order to prevent scaling. The actual combination of pool water chemistry numbers to prevent scaling is based on the calcium carbonate saturation index you can calculate in The Pool Calculator. You can also use this to figure out how much baking soda to add to raise the Total Alkalinity (TA). You may not need to raise it above 80 ppm unless your pH tends to drop a lot (which it might with Dichlor-only use).

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) builds up with continued Dichlor use, but I wouldn't worry about that right now. The problems with this tub occurred early on and have nothing to do with CYA.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

The tub had not been used for quite awhile, you have foam and I am guessing swimsuits are used, the PH and Alk are dropping and the tub is used fairly heavy. I am going to go on a limb and say you have many contaminates in the water and no enough oxidizing for the use.

Tub should have been decontaminated before use. Don't wash swimsuits unless very necessary, make usre you are very clean when using the tub. Lotion, hairspray, perfume ect. will raise a mess, specially with N2 low chlorine recipe. For the use you descrice, quite a bit of MPS is needed daily and a good dose of dichlor weekly. As you have read, if you have used a lot of dichlor and your CYA is high, it has made the chlorine less effective. Coughing is usually from chloromines, a build up of used wastes that have not been fully oxidized. Filter cleaning is also a must, along with a good set of filters and proper filter cycles.

I would decontaminate, drain and start again. The N2 should still be good for the remainder of the 4 months unless it is clogged with whatever is causing the foam, take a look at it.

[us5camp]

Update, so far we have done the following to this 1997, 500 gal, indoor Cal Spa to combat the cough irritation:

• Added a CLR product to tub to help flush out crap that may have been in the tub plumbing in the years it sat idle.
• Circulated, Drained.
• Refilled, SuperChlorinated, 12hrs, drained ala the proceedure posted here.
• Decided cover is WAY past it's prime, so orded a new one from RHTubs.
• - - Dealer Chemical 'expert' felt the cover may be the culprit, as did others here.
• Spa is now empty, d-day +1
• Filters are out and cleaned... noticed one is a 50 sqft and the other is a 25 sqft, so need to get another 50.
• N2 stick looked good, was only 3wks old with very light spa use, so soaked it in a higher FC level bucket of water, drained and am planning to reuse for the balance of it's recommended life.

So, question is, do I leave the tub idle the next 2-3 wks while waiting for the RHTubs cover???

or

Refill and resume use, following a proper restart, balance routine?

Argument for the later is if the cover is the culprit, and the cough resumes, shouldn't the cough irritation stop when the new cover arrives and the old one is discarded?

It should NOT be possible for the cover to contaminate a freshly decontaminated spa as long as it's properly sanitized and shocked?

Correct?

I am not convinced it's the cover anyway as the cough didn't bother me when the cover was open and on the spa top, but only or significantly more when the jets came on. Even with the cover off fully, sitting behind the tub, we had coughing.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Update, so far we have done the following to this 1997, 500 gal, indoor Cal Spa to combat the cough irritation:

• Added a CLR product to tub to help flush out crap that may have been in the tub plumbing in the years it sat idle.
• Circulated, Drained.
• Refilled, SuperChlorinated, 12hrs, drained ala the proceedure posted here.
• Decided cover is WAY past it's prime, so orded a new one from RHTubs.
• - - Dealer Chemical 'expert' felt the cover may be the culprit, as did others here.
• Spa is now empty, d-day +1
• Filters are out and cleaned... noticed one is a 50 sqft and the other is a 25 sqft, so need to get another 50.
• N2 stick looked good, was only 3wks old with very light spa use, so soaked it in a higher FC level bucket of water, drained and am planning to reuse for the balance of it's recommended life.

So, question is, do I leave the tub idle the next 2-3 wks while waiting for the RHTubs cover???

or

Refill and resume use, following a proper restart, balance routine?

Argument for the later is if the cover is the culprit, and the cough resumes, shouldn't the cough irritation stop when the new cover arrives and the old one is discarded?

It should NOT be possible for the cover to contaminate a freshly decontaminated spa as long as it's properly sanitized and shocked?

Correct?

I am not convinced it's the cover anyway as the cough didn't bother me when the cover was open and on the spa top, but only or significantly more when the jets came on. Even with the cover off fully, sitting behind the tub, we had coughing.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

My only concern is with the tub left empty, there is still 20+ gallons of water left in the lines that will start growing stuff over the next few weeks. If left empty, I would chlorinate it heavy when you first start up (at least 10). If you want to use it over the next few weeks, you can see if your spa store carries the inexspensive spa blankets, they look like bubble wrap, to put over the tub and under the cover. This would keep any contamination from getting into the water. You may be able to use a cheap tarp for that matter since it would be short term.

The other reason to the cough may not be hot tub related, but from the moisture. Have you ever tried a sauna to see if it causes a cough. I know many people that get into moist environments that start to cough. The moisture triggers a tickle effect in their throat causing them to cough.....just a thought. Good Luck