Copper Ion Technology

[citrusboy]

Hi I haven't seen anything here on Copper Ion Clearwater plans. I am assuming that it is relatively new.

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Cleanwater-Bl...de-P601C43.aspx

I am thinking of using the above instead of Bromine in our new Spa.

Any thoughts on this or first hand comments?

We have saline pool and love the fact that there isn't any smell...

[waterbear]

Hi I haven't seen anything here on Copper Ion Clearwater plans. I am assuming that it is relatively new.

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Cleanwater-Bl...de-P601C43.aspx

I am thinking of using the above instead of Bromine in our new Spa.

Any thoughts on this or first hand comments?

We have saline pool and love the fact that there isn't any smell...

Copper is nothing new and it is NOT a primary sanitizer. It is actually an algaecide that has some bacteriostatic properties but it has very slow kill times. If you want sanitzed water it must be used in conjunction with a fast acting residual sanitizer like chlorine or bromine. Also copper is what causes green hair. I would avoid it like the plague!

Also, just to clairfy things for you...you do not have a "saline" pool, you have a chlorine pool. The salt in the water is used to manufacture chlorine inside the cell of your salt water generator by elctrolysis. The salt itself really plays no part in water sanitation other than being the substance that the chlorine is manufactured from. It is a chlorine pool just like any other. The reason there is no smell is because it is not chlorine that smells but chloramines and salt water chlorine generators seem to be more efficient at keeping chloramines from forming than does manual chlorination.

[Shaamus]

That's actually a Spa Depot product that they created. They took what Rainforest Blue didn't do for spas and enhanced it to fill in the gaps. But it's not an EPA registered sanitizer (and they don't push it as such). Like Waterbear mentioned, you still need a sanitizer for the water to be safe. CWB is recommending using MPS as the sanitizer component.

That said, in my opinion, Nature2 + MPS is an easier alternative and it's now EPA registered as a sanitizer when used with MPS. CWB just seems like a lot of steps.

[tony]

That's actually a Spa Depot product that they created. They took what Rainforest Blue didn't do for spas and enhanced it to fill in the gaps. But it's not an EPA registered sanitizer (and they don't push it as such). Like Waterbear mentioned, you still need a sanitizer for the water to be safe. CWB is recommending using MPS as the sanitizer component.

That said, in my opinion, Nature2 + MPS is an easier alternative and it's now EPA registered as a sanitizer when used with MPS. CWB just seems like a lot of steps.

I don't believe this is entirely correct. First, MPS is not a sanitizer...it is an oxidizer. The only registered sanitizers are chlorine, bromine and biguanides. Nature2 and others are registered bacteriacides. From what I understand, Nature2 is now moving away from MPS and toward chlroine as its companion.

[Shaamus]

That's actually a Spa Depot product that they created. They took what Rainforest Blue didn't do for spas and enhanced it to fill in the gaps. But it's not an EPA registered sanitizer (and they don't push it as such). Like Waterbear mentioned, you still need a sanitizer for the water to be safe. CWB is recommending using MPS as the sanitizer component.

That said, in my opinion, Nature2 + MPS is an easier alternative and it's now EPA registered as a sanitizer when used with MPS. CWB just seems like a lot of steps.

I don't believe this is entirely correct. First, MPS is not a sanitizer...it is an oxidizer. The only registered sanitizers are chlorine, bromine and biguanides. Nature2 and others are registered bacteriacides. From what I understand, Nature2 is now moving away from MPS and toward chlroine as its companion.

You are correct about MPS. It is an oxidizer. I misspoke.

Zodiac has had Nature2 EPA approved as a sanitizer when used with MPS. Check with them. Don't take my word for it. I'm just regurgitating what the Zodiac/Polaris rep has said to us. The instructions do call for some dichlor during startup to get a residual in the water. They are embracing MPS, not moving away from it. Zodiac's new Cense product is MPS, not dichlor. Since they have developed their controlled release technology, unlike Frog, you actually get some of the Nature2 in the water even when the spa is not circulating the water over the filter. This, with use of MPS, maybe has satisfied the EPA.

Zodiac has changed the name of the cartridge to Nature2 Mineral Sanitizer and are quoting on their website and in their literature that it is EPA approved. They discontinued the "add a stick to a startup chemical kit edition" because it was bulk packaged and did not have the required instructions that the EPA requires. Anyone that has ever dealt with the EPA on this issue (Dr. Spa can chime in with his experience) knows they don't mess around. Zodiac is a huge global company. They aren't some small firm dabbling in water care in their owner's kitchen (insert other alternative spa water care names here). They wouldn't make the kind of mistake of calling their product EPA approved and risk sanctions and fines if it weren't.

But like I said, don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself: www.nature2.com

For the record, I'm a spa cover manufacturer not a rep for Zodiac. We do like their program though, even before it was an EPA approved sanitizer.

[tony]

You are correct about MPS. It is an oxidizer. I misspoke.

Zodiac has had Nature2 EPA approved as a sanitizer when used with MPS. Check with them. Don't take my word for it. I'm just regurgitating what the Zodiac/Polaris rep has said to us. The instructions do call for some dichlor during startup to get a residual in the water. But that's it. They are embracing MPS, not moving away from it. Zodiac's new Cense product is MPS, not dichlor. Since they have developed their controlled release technology, unlike Frog, you actually get some of the Nature2 in the water even when the spa is not circulating the water over the filter. This, with use of MPS, apparently has satisfied the EPA.

Zodiac has changed the name of the cartridge to Nature2 Mineral Sanitizer and are quoting on their website and in their literature that it is EPA approved. They discontinued the "add a stick to a startup chemical kit edition" because it was bulk packaged and did not have the required instructions that the EPA requires. Anyone that has ever dealt with the EPA on this issue (Dr. Spa can chime in with his experience) knows they don't mess around. Zodiac is a huge global company. They aren't some small firm dabbling in water care in their owner's kitchen (insert other alternative spa water care names here). They wouldn't make the kind of mistake of calling their product EPA approved and risk sanctions and fines if it weren't.

But like I said, don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself: www.nature2.com

For the record, I'm a spa cover manufacturer not a rep for Zodiac. We do like their program though, even before it was an EPA approved sanitizer.

Zodiac is stating that Nature2 used with non chlorine shock is the only EPA approved non chlorine sanitizing system. I don't think that is the same as being a registered sanitizer. Last I heard, only chlorine, bromine and biguanides were registered sanitizers. It would seem that biguanides would be the non chlorine sanitizer.

I have used Nature2 and its closest competitor, the Frog for four years. I do believe that chlorine with silver is a great combination. Silver definitely weakens the outer shell of bacteria and chlorine will finish the job violently, but to rely on the very slow acting silver to do all the sanitizing is a stretch, in my experience. My water couldn't stay clear for more than a couple of days with just N2 and non chlorine shock...even with healthy doses of chlorine added weekly or biweekly.

As far as what is registered and what is not...maybe Dr. Spa may chime in...he usually looks up EPA regestrations with regard to water. I could be dead wrong here but I would think this would be huge news if N2 had the same status as the big three.

[waterbear]

Realize that the EPA is a bit behind some other countries in reguards to copper/silver systems. In Canada only the copper is recognized and it is registered as an algaecide only and in Australia all copper/silver systems are required to be used with normal chlorination levels and not the reduced levels that are touted in the US! BTW, N2 changed their spa recipe in 2006 and actually INCREASED the amount of chlorine used with the N2. Previously shocking weekly with MPS was permitted and then MPS after each use. Now the weekly or more often if needed shock is done only with dichlor and the amount used has been increased! The use of MPS is after each tub use to burn off organics. If the newer 2006 instructions packaged in the N2 box are followed then the spa is being shocked to around 6-10 ppm weekly and if dichor is substitited for the MPS (which is an option in the instructions) then the water is being maintained at about 2 ppm FC. This is a MUCH higher level than prevoiusly when MPS was allowed WITHOUT any chlorine at all except at startup and if dichlor was substituted for the MPS then the spa was only being raised to about 3 ppm on the weekly shock and maintained at about .5 ppm!

If you don't believe me then check out the insructions in a new N2 spa cart and compare them to the instructions that came in a pre 2006 copyright box!

It seems that Zodiac is acknowledging that copper and silver do not provide properly sanitized water with only MPS or very low FC levels when you take this into account!

[Shaamus]

Waterbear is right about the new formulation and Zodiac does play some word games with their new marketing. Their "recipe" does call for dichlor as needed which is probably how they got their system EPA approved, but their marketing department does stretch it a bit in an attempt to appeal to people looking for a no-chlorine/no-bromine alternative. The EPA may look at "as needed" as a weekly shock, while the spa recipe doesn't exactly come out and say that. I think another way they are skirting the dichlor a bit in their instructions is that they are call for a test of MPS before you get into the water and adding if it's low. In a realistic scenario, this is unlikely to happen and shocking with dichlor on a more regular basis is probably the best way to go. We still love the system and recommend it, but we also note on our website and handouts that we are still advising a shock with dichlor.