Genesis System - Ta And Ph Questions..

[Markus Maximus]

Hi there, I was hoping someone could help me fix my TA and pH issues.

I have an Arctic Spa with a Peak Ozone system and just recently had the Genesis system installed. After filling my tub, the TA and pH were in the correct ranges, so I added the jugs of sodium bromide and did the initial shock with MPS as per the instructions.

After letting it run for a day or so, my bromine levels were fairly high (understandable since the system was set to 10), and my pH seemed to go through the roof (8+ using Taylor K-2005). The TA was still nicely in the range though.

I turned down the Genesis setting gradually as they suggest and I'm able to maintain a 2-3 PPM bromine level, which I think is fine in combination with the ozone. However, after a few attempts to push it down using the "adjust down" product I was supplied, the pH keeps going back up. It would look good for a day, but then shoot up again. I don't want to add much more 'down' since the TA keeps dropping (down to 80-90 now).. They supplied a "perfect balance" product to push up TA, but won't that increase pH as well?

My neighbor with Genesis (same water supply, but different tub and no ozone) was told by his dealer that keeping TA in line is more important than pH and to not worry about high pH. He can't seem to keep enough bromine in his tub and his setting is always on 10. Does the high pH interfere with the bromine production?

Any ideas?

[Pathfinder]

The genesis system works very well when customers are properly educated on the system that usually stems from a properly educated dealer. If your dealer can t help you with the proper solutions call Pioneer H20 they make the systems and they have awesome tech support.

[Markus Maximus]

I think the genesis system is working as expected, but I was hoping someone could comment on the rising pH though.. Isn't the purpose of this forum to get some expert opinions? It's not that I don't trust my dealer, but I've talked to many and get a different story every time.

[icdoo]

I also have an Arctic Spa complete with a Pioneer H2O Technologies Genesis unit. I constantly have to add PH down even with out adding any more water. I am still not convinced that the product is working correctly. I have adjusted all the levels to the dealer’s specification and had them tested. My aquachek test strips do not show any bromine, Arctic Spa tells me this is normal. Arctic Spa says "The bromine is there, you just can't read it." I added half a cup of boost yesterday to get my bromine to show up at a normal level on the test strip. What kind of readings are you getting and how are you measuring them? I am also confused what people mean when they say shock.... I have two products "BOOST" and “REFRESH". Is either of these products "SHOCK? I would also love to get any input as I hear many different stories and think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Markus Maximus]

I am not sure what BOOST is, but REFRESH is a non-chlorine shock (MPS). My genesis unit is set to 7 and my filtration is set to 8 hours per day and I'm getting about 2.5 PPM of bromine which is pretty good I think. One thing I just noticed though is that my sodium bromide concentration has dropped down to about 1500PM (7.2 on the scale). Not sure how that happened since it has only been in use for about 2 months.

[Artic Cub]

Artic Owners w/ Ozonator:How can you not read a chemical in your water? I took my water to a dealer, and they tested my water and said it had 0 bromine; this was 2 days after following instructions exactly for changing the tubs water...... So, I took my Artic floater, and moved it from 2 tabs being visible to open as much as possible. 2 Days later it now reads in the acceptable levels.

[itabb]

Post a full set of stats from your K2005 (BR, PH, TA, CA). You might try running the spa simply. Turn off all those extras: ozone, Nature thingy, whatever.

You've added sodium bromide already.

So shock with Chlorine (Clorox Bleach), like 1-2 cups

use bromine tabs for a bit or run your chlorine generator

Wait a day and re-measure. Keep your spa out of the sunlight (or in if you need to burn excess bromine off)

You really should need anything else. If you get used to running your spa around 6ppm and PH 7.6 or so, then start turning on the gagets, one at a time, and see how they affect you and figure out how to compensate for them. My PH is real stable in my spa. I use a floater with bromine tablets. If I expose my spa to sunlight too long, I add a bit 'o Clorox (1oz per 1ppm, 500gal spa) to get my bromone levels back up. I was using MPS, but I'm cheap, and I have the bleach for the pool and home anyway.

[waterbear]

Two things about the pH. First, do NOT try to test pH when bromiine levels are high. High sanitizer levels will interfere with the pH reagent chemically and cause it to read high when it is not. Second, rising pH is a problem with both bromine generators and salt water chlorine generators. The reason is the same for both. In addition to producing sanitizer the unit is alos producing hydrogen gas which is aerating your water (along with your bubblers and jets) If you have a high TA this will cause a lot of carbon dioxide to gas out of your water and cause your pH to rise. Your spa is carbonated. That is what TA is...carbonates, bicarbonates, and carbonic acid in the water. This carbonation will help keep the pH from dropping when using acidic santizers like bromine tabs and MPS shock (all the non clorine shocks that are used in spas are MPS--postassium monopersulfate). Generated bromine or chlorine is NOT acidic so you do not need a high total alkalinity to offset the pH drop from the sanitizer. Carbonic acid is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, think seltzer. If you aearate the water (think shaking up a bottle of seltzer to make it go flat) you drive out the carbon dioxide and the pH rises since you have reduced the amount of carbonic acid in the water. By keeping your TA on the low end (around 80-90 ppm) and keeping your pH at 7.6 or slightly higher you can mimimize this effect. Aslo by introducing 30-50 ppm borates into the water (with a product such as Proteam's Gentle Spa) you introduce a secondary boric acid/borate buffer system that will help stabilize the pH.

Also realize that bromine cannot be stabilized aganst loss from UV light like chlorine can so if you spa is getting any sun exposure the bromine will be burnt off in a very short time and you will have to run the generator output at a very high level which will lead to a faster pH rise. Try to keep the spa covered unless it is actually in use. This will help.

IF my memory serves me correctly Boost is a 'one step' bromine system that contains sodium bromide and dichlor ( a form of chlorine) to oxidize the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your active bromine sanitizer. With the Genesis bromine generators I believe that you are only supposed to add plain sodium bromide to the water to a level of around 2500 ppm and only shock with MPS if needed.

Sodium bromide can get consumed in a bromine system by being oxidized to bromates. Once this happens it is essentially 'dead' as far as generating bromine. This is also why conventional bromine systems do need to be drained and refilled every so often. If you have ozone you are speeding up how fast the bromates are forming in your water.

[itabb]

I have read about bromates several times but I did not realize that it is the bromates that are the driving reason for refilling the spa. Aside from time, how do you know when you need to refill your bromine spa? Does this mean you do not have to refill a chlorine based spa since there will not be bromates and CCs can be burned off?

[Markus Maximus]

Thanks Waterbear..

So, are you saying that my ozone system is what's 'eating up' my NaBr concentration? What are the side effects of these bromates? Do they contribute to the bromine smell?

[waterbear]

I have read about bromates several times but I did not realize that it is the bromates that are the driving reason for refilling the spa. Aside from time, how do you know when you need to refill your bromine spa? Does this mean you do not have to refill a chlorine based spa since there will not be bromates and CCs can be burned off?

Bromates are not the main reason to refill a spa every three to four months. The water just concentrates so much stuff because of evaporaton within that time that it's better to start over.

In a chlorine spa with ozone the ozone will destroy the chlorine and form chlorates.

[waterbear]

Thanks Waterbear..

So, are you saying that my ozone system is what's 'eating up' my NaBr concentration? What are the side effects of these bromates? Do they contribute to the bromine smell?

Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water but I don't know of any effects in spa water. Ozone will reactivate the sodium bromide to bromine sanitizer but it will also oxidize it to bromates. In a chlorine system ozone depletes chlorine by forming chlorates. The decrease in sodium bromide in your water can come from many sources. Splash out and topping off the water after is the most common one and is probably the reason your sodium bromide levels are dropping. Remeber that there is only a small quantity of water in your tub and if you lose a gallon each time you use the spa from splashout it and replace it with fresh water it adds up in a very short time!

[icdoo]

First of all, I went to my Arctic Spa dealer omn the weekend and they gave me a louver. I was told every Arctic spa running in the summer needs a louver for saltwater systerms. The problem is that they produce so much heat and the water goes 3c aboove setpoint and they shut down. Your pumps dont run for 8 hours and not enough bromine is produced. The water seemed to be going grey and cloudy today so I added some more boost as no bromine was showing up on the test strip. I think this will consume the salt so I should check my levels tomorrow or I wont be able to generate bromine if I use too much up.

[Markus Maximus]

The interesting thing about my low NaBr level is that in the two plus months since I started it up, I've never had to add more water due to splash out and I've always got the tub covered - and typically only use it at night.