Cloudy Water Persists

[jmtf]

This is my first season opening the pool its 24' x 4' (~14k gallons) round pool.

I took alot of time to research what to do last fall and bought a cover and a closing kit for 15k gal.

So I opned it last Sun (5/6).

However I was shocked when I took the cover off it was green, really green.

So being worried about killing the algae I added 2 lbs of shock, 1/2 gallon of Aqua Chem Liquid algecide, and 16oz of Kem Tek Mustard Alage killer.

I have been running the filter and vacuming to waste some of the stuff that fell off the cover.

Refilling with well water what I vacumed out.

I also added 2 addtional pounds of shock and PH up to raise the PH ( I switched the last time to 20 Mule team borax that was recommeded on this forum). I also added some Ultra clarifier.

I just can't get it to clear up. I also took the advice of waterbear and bought a 6 way kit.

So yesterday the FC was really high, but it rained last night and it was so low today.

My current test numbers are:

CA - 30

PH 7.4

FC (Very low) added a gallon of ultra bleach and put some tablets skimmer

Hardness 100

TA - 110

The water is a turquoise color but it seems really clean I am not picking up much in the cartrige filter.

I just can't see the bottom or get it to clear up.

I had softside pools for a couple of years before this one so I got used to monitoring and treating it during the season very closely. Thanks in advance for any assitance.

[dynamictiger]

This is my first season opening the pool its 24' x 4' (~14k gallons) round pool.

I took alot of time to research what to do last fall and bought a cover and a closing kit for 15k gal.

So I opned it last Sun (5/6).

However I was shocked when I took the cover off it was green, really green.

So being worried about killing the algae I added 2 lbs of shock, 1/2 gallon of Aqua Chem Liquid algecide, and 16oz of Kem Tek Mustard Alage killer.

I have been running the filter and vacuming to waste some of the stuff that fell off the cover.

Refilling with well water what I vacumed out.

I also added 2 addtional pounds of shock and PH up to raise the PH ( I switched the last time to 20 Mule team borax that was recommeded on this forum). I also added some Ultra clarifier.

I just can't get it to clear up. I also took the advice of waterbear and bought a 6 way kit.

So yesterday the FC was really high, but it rained last night and it was so low today.

My current test numbers are:

CA - 30

PH 7.4

FC (Very low) added a gallon of ultra bleach and put some tablets skimmer

Hardness 100

TA - 110

The water is a turquoise color but it seems really clean I am not picking up much in the cartrige filter.

I just can't see the bottom or get it to clear up.

I had softside pools for a couple of years before this one so I got used to monitoring and treating it during the season very closely. Thanks in advance for any assitance.

Please add 1.5 gallons of sodium hypochlorite 13% to your pool and leave the filter running and see what it looks like in 24 hours.

HTH

[jmtf]

Update as of 5/15. I arrived home from work on Mon to find the pool has cleared a bit and the FC is above 5.0 (thats the highest on my test kit) looks like the bleach added on Sun is taking hold. I vacumed the pool to waste again to help clean up some stuff that fell off the cover.

Many thanks for the reply and I will add the addtional bleach today. and keep you posted. I have been running the filter 24/7 for a week now. I think I just needed to be paitent for the chlorine to work and should have added more bleach sooner.

Again many thanks for the reply. I will update again tomorrow and post a pic if I can figure out how.

[chem geek]

You MUST keep the FC high at 12 ppm or more minimum at all times (when you have 30 ppm CYA as you do) or else the algae will grow back faster than the chlorine kills it. You may need to check it at least twice a day and add more chlorine (especially during the day, so at least at morning and at night). This link shows that the process typically takes 3-4 days and does work using chlorine alone, but you have to have patience. With really large amounts of algae, it could take up to a week. You need to brush the sides and when the algae settles you can vacuum to waste, but keep the filter running 24/7 during this process. Patience, patience. You won't stop with the chlorine when the pool clears -- the pool must be clear AND the FC must hold overnight without a significant drop. Then you'll know you're done.

[jmtf]

Thanks for the additional info, the 6 way Aqua chem kit I bought shows a max reading of 5.0 for CL. I guess I have to hunt for for a different test kit . Thanks again for the addtional info. BTW I brushed the sides also

I learned this last year when fighting an outbreak of Mustard Algae (which the copper based Kem Tek mustard algecide seems to take care of).

[jmtf]

Even the Taylor K2006 only goes to 5 ppm:

Model K-2006 Total chlorine .5-5.0 ppm,

Recommendations?

[chem geek]

Even the Taylor K2006 only goes to 5 ppm:

Model K-2006 Total chlorine .5-5.0 ppm,

Recommendations?

This is not true. The Taylor K-2005 DPD chlorine test kit only goes to 5 ppm, but the K-2006 is a drop-based (i.e. count the drops) FAS-DPD chlorine test kit that can measure up to 50 ppm. The K-2006 kit, or the equivalent Leslie's complete professional kit or something that says the chlorine test is FAS-DPD, is the one to get. You can read more about the Taylor kit here on Taylor's website. To test FC higher than 25 ppm, it takes more initial powder, but it will measure correctly.

[jmtf]

Update: Tuesday evening.

I could almost see the bottom.

Wife added 1.5 Gallons of bleach this afternoon, but she could only find the 6%.

Is their a brand that comes in 13%, I think she got Walmart Great Value Ultra.

Should we double to 3 gallons?

PH is normal

Chlorine above 5.0 very yellow.

Did not have time to vacume so I brushed the pool, it stirred up some ugly water but not too much.

I cleaned the filter also with the host and reinstalled.

I also have been using a few chlorine tablets in the skimmer to keep the chlorine up also.

Thanks again for all the help, you guys are awesome!

[chem geek]

Since your CYA is already at 30 ppm, I wouldn't add tablets to your skimmer if they are Trichlor tablets (are they Trichlor or Cal-Hypo?). You can dilute your pool water to test it by taking one part pool water and adding 3 parts filtered or bottled water and multiplying your result in your FC test by 4.

Your pool is 14,000 gallons so it should take 2.7 gallons of 6% bleach to add 12 ppm FC, but it sounds like you may not need to add very much since your chlorine is above 5 so you are probably OK (but please try the dilution test until you get your Taylor K-2006 or the Leslie's Chlorine FAS-DPD Service Test Kit). As for getting something stronger than 6% bleach, you generally have to go to a pool store or hardware store to get chlorinating liquid and it usually comes as 10% or 12.5% strength.

Hang in there. All you need now is patience.

[jmtf]

Update: Wed Morning

PH: 7.8

FC: 12 (using dilution method! Thanks)

Tablets are Trichlor. Will stop adding them since CYA is ok at 30.

Cleaned Filter with hose reinstalled. Only small amount of particles pickled up over night.

Btw do you read the PH right away after adding the red drops or wait? It seems to get more red if I let it sit for a couple of min. I would say overall is is creaping up.

Visibility still the same, about 3 feet, still can't see the brush when its on the bottom.

Many thanks to chem geek for the kind advise.

[jmtf]

Update Thursday PM:

I can now see the pool bottom but water is still very cloudy.

Holding chlorine above 12ppm by adding more bleach 3 qts yesterday, 3 qts today.

Chlorine is not dropping much day to day. Its very consistant.

If this is algae its the wierdest algae I have ever seen in 3 yrs of doing this.

Brushed the pool again today. hope to vacume to waste tomorrow.

It is clearing very slowly, still running the pump 24/7. I always do that anyway, probably overkill.

Is their any chance this is not algae?

My pool has reacted nothing like the pics other people have posted when the bleach was added.

Any chance it had something to do with the copper algaecide, shock, regular agaecide, PH up mix that went in the first day?

[Pathfinder]

you havent said if you have changed filters or even cleaned it with solution the one you have been using. Mustard algae is yellow not green and it would be everywhere. Lets simplify this 1) clean your filters 2)Go to a pool store and buy some shock 3) if your pool is still green buy a small bottle of 40% to 60% algecide the stuff from wallmart wont cut it. 4) get all of your levels balanced ie. calcium hardness, Alk & ph. 5) Add algecide 6) wait 2 hours 7) shock pool let circulate for 12 hours. 8) vacuum pool 9) clean filter again 10) rebalance pool and let circulate. If you pool is no longer green but cloudy use a floculant and that will take down the suspended particles.

My suggestion to combat your algae problem and to have your pool running smoothly is to buy chlorine pucks with zinc oxide in them and use a non chlorine based shock get rid of the bleach and use a 40% to 60%algecide once a week for 2 months to let the bank of zinc build up than stop. The zinc in the pucks will build up a bank in your water and prevent any algae from growing what so ever. Everyone of my customers who follows this plan has never had a problem for 4 yrs running.

[chem geek]

You could also just use PolyQuat 60 algaecide weekly and not get algae, but that wasn't the point. You can keep away algae with chlorine alone. You don't HAVE to do that, of course, and if you feel you can't maintain chlorine levels consistently then using an algaecide is insurance.

The advice for cleaning the filter is good advice and you can use a flocculant or clarifier to collect suspended particles if they aren't clearing on their own. In fact, PolyQuat 60 is not only an algaecide, but is also a clarifier, but just be aware that high chlorine levels will get consumed by it (the chlorine breaks the PolyQuat down into smaller pieces) but it will still be effective.

You have options. There's not one right answer here. Regular maintenance of chlorine levels is one approach. Regular use of an algaecide is another. In fact, if you use an algaecide regularly, you can even use Trichlor and not worry so much about the CYA levels unless they get really high (way over 100). I was just giving you the least expensive path -- not necessarily the one for least maintenance (since you have to add chlorine regularly).

[Pathfinder]

The point also is that jmtf is filling his pool probably with untreated or unfiltered well water. Also when you follow a good proven plan from a dealer your costs remain down in the long run. You may pay more in the start of the plan but if you dont have a good procedure you spend all kinds of money listening to people saying you should buy this and buy that and that will fix your problem then you have just wasted a week or so and money fighting the pool when a proactive approach would have you enjoying the pool.

[waterbear]

The point also is that jmtf is filling his pool probably with untreated or unfiltered well water. Also when you follow a good proven plan from a dealer your costs remain down in the long run. You may pay more in the start of the plan but if you dont have a good procedure you spend all kinds of money listening to people saying you should buy this and buy that and that will fix your problem then you have just wasted a week or so and money fighting the pool when a proactive approach would have you enjoying the pool.

Where I work we sell a lot of liquid chlorine for pools, expecially those that have cartridge filters because we are in an area that has an extended swim season and we don't winterize pools. Because of this high CYA levels from stabilized chlorine become a problem and our customers don't like to have to drain and refill to combat it. Bleach is exactly the same as liquid chlorine, just not as concentrated. My customers that use liquid chlorine spend much less on chemicals and also have less problems than those that are using other forms of chlorination and they ARE following a proven plan from a dealer! Because we can save them money on normal maintenance they come to us for big ticket items like filters, SWGs, automatic cleaners, etc. even though our prices aren't always the lowest they can find. Zinc or copper will keep algae at bay but then you have metals in your water. Well water will often contain metals and require the use of a metal sequaterant which is not compatible with using metals as an alage preventative (if your supposition is true that jmtf is using well water for his fill water.). Borates at 30-50 ppm is a much better algae preventative, IMHO. The only algaecides I routinely recommend are polyquat 60 or, for mustard and black algae, sodium bromide in conjunction with chlorine although we also sell copper, linear quats, and inorganic ammonia based ones.

[jmtf]

The point also is that jmtf is filling his pool probably with untreated or unfiltered well water. Also when you follow a good proven plan from a dealer your costs remain down in the long run. You may pay more in the start of the plan but if you dont have a good procedure you spend all kinds of money listening to people saying you should buy this and buy that and that will fix your problem then you have just wasted a week or so and money fighting the pool when a proactive approach would have you enjoying the pool.

Yes I used well water to top off after vacuming, same well water I have used to fill the pool previously with no adverse reactions.

I took the proactive approach, purchased a closing kit for the pool, and a cover. Followed the directions exactly, but when I uncovered it, it was rediculously green.

[jmtf]

you havent said if you have changed filters or even cleaned it with solution the one you have been using. Mustard algae is yellow not green and it would be everywhere. Lets simplify this 1) clean your filters 2)Go to a pool store and buy some shock 3) if your pool is still green buy a small bottle of 40% to 60% algecide the stuff from wallmart wont cut it. 4) get all of your levels balanced ie. calcium hardness, Alk & ph. 5) Add algecide 6) wait 2 hours 7) shock pool let circulate for 12 hours. 8) vacuum pool 9) clean filter again 10) rebalance pool and let circulate. If you pool is no longer green but cloudy use a floculant and that will take down the suspended particles.

My suggestion to combat your algae problem and to have your pool running smoothly is to buy chlorine pucks with zinc oxide in them and use a non chlorine based shock get rid of the bleach and use a 40% to 60%algecide once a week for 2 months to let the bank of zinc build up than stop. The zinc in the pucks will build up a bank in your water and prevent any algae from growing what so ever. Everyone of my customers who follows this plan has never had a problem for 4 yrs running.

Ok, a few clarifications from the posts I have made above:

1. As I state above I am cleaning the filter. More info, I clean it twice a day.Morning and evening

2. The Kem Tek copperbased agale killer I added Day 1 states it is for Mustard and Green algae.

3. I started with shock until I used up the 5 pounds I had and decided to use bleach as recommended.

During the previous seasons 3 I have not had any problem with maintaing the pool, using Trichlor, Polyquat, and Shock. This is just an opening pool issue.

[chem geek]

The Aqua Chem Liquid Algaecide is mostly "alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride" which is essentially an organic source of ammonia. This will consume a lot of chlorine to form monochloramine which is one method of killing algae.

The Kem Tek Mustard Algaecide is, as you pointed out, copper-based and is a copper alkanolamine complex.

The addition of copper to your pool plus possibly additional metals from your well water can cause the water to turn green from chlorine combining with copper to form copper hydroxide. This is especially true when using a hypochlorite type of chlorine since that is basic/alkaline at least upon initial addition (the consumption or using up of chlorine is acidic). This may be why your pool stayed green longer than expected. If you have excess metal in the pool, then using a metal sequestrant will help with that. The basic rule is: to clear a pool of green algae, use only chlorine or perhaps near the end (when it's cloudy) some PolyQuat 60 or clarifier.

Some pools take a week to clear of algae instead of 3-4 days. Generally, using higher chlorine levels makes the process go faster, but you don't want to get too high in vinyl pools (though some users have used very high levels and not seen a problem -- some have taken some vinyl patches and put it in 30-50 ppm FC and seen no fading nor thinning, but that was only with a few days exposure). I know you are getting different advice, but mine is to have patience keeping the chlorine level up, filtering 24/7 (you can use a skimmer sock to capture more outside the filter), and optionally use PolyQuat 60 or another clarifier to help consolidate suspended particles for faster filtering.

[jmtf]

Thanks alot chem geek for the information. I'm no expert for sure. I just try to read and learn something

as I go along. No summer maintenance issues over the last 3 years, just a little stubborn mustard algae (thus having the copper stuff on hand).

I always monitor my chlorine closely since the softside pools probably don't come with the best filtration system. I actually was looking on craigslist to see if I could pick up a used sand filter and pump combo unit.

I added some aqua chem ultra clarifier a couple of days ago. to try to get the particles to stick together so they could be filtered out. But it really looks like it's something beside algae clouding it up but I have no idea what. Maybe it was the copper and the chlorine. Everyday it gets a tiny bit clearer. I know alot of people hate the softside pools but to be honest my kids loved the 15' foot one we got as a trial pool so on its 3rd season the top ring failed and we got the 24' frame-set one. The kids loved it when it went up mid summer last year. BTW it was filled with well water and I think we do not have any metals, no signs of iron issues and trichlor works like a champ.

What I am actually trying to learn is what to do for closing this year. I think I understand the opening process now, correct the PH (raise with Borax, not sure about lowering, I always seem to be raising), and then just apply shock or bleach to above 12ppm and hold it there.

Thanks again.

[Pathfinder]

Closing is quite simple before you close your pool bring your levels up on the higher side then bring your pool to winter level. add your stain prevent solution wait 20 add your 40% 60% algecide wait 20 then add your shock wait 30 then cover. The main thing you need to do is have your pool balanced properly before you close and only adding the winter kit after the pool level is brought down.

[waterbear]

The Aqua Chem Liquid Algaecide is mostly "alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride" which is essentially an organic source of ammonia. This will consume a lot of chlorine to form monochloramine which is one method of killing algae.

.

Actually this is a quaternary ammonium compound or linerar quat type of algaecide.

[chem geek]

Actually this is a quaternary ammonium compound or linerar quat type of algaecide.

Yup. Sorry about that -- misread ammonium as ammonia. Used to seeing it as iminio. So as a linear quat it may have foaming issues so a PolyQuat would be better.

[waterbear]

Yup. Sorry about that -- misread ammonium as ammonia. Used to seeing it as iminio. So as a linear quat it may have foaming issues so a PolyQuat would be better.

Don''t sweat it....I have 'blond moments' also! Just keep up the great work with all the good advice you give!

[jmtf]

Closing is quite simple before you close your pool bring your levels up on the higher side then bring your pool to winter level. add your stain prevent solution wait 20 add your 40% 60% algecide wait 20 then add your shock wait 30 then cover. The main thing you need to do is have your pool balanced properly before you close and only adding the winter kit after the pool level is brought down.

Thanks for the info. Thats the part that scares me. That was the process that I used. It looks like to me that the algaecide and chlorine did not last till early May. I am interested in what works in closing it in OCT and Opening in May in NC. Obviously to me the closing kits do not work.

[chem geek]

The chemist at Buckman Laboratories (who make all of the PolyQuat distributed in the U.S.) told me that they recommend shocking with chlorine FIRST, then letting the level drop some before adding PolyQuat. The reason is that chlorine will break down PolyQuat though the smaller pieces are still somewhat effective. It is possible that having the lower level of chlorine when you add the PolyQuat will result in it lasting longer since it will remain as a long polymer for a longer period of time. The other recommendation the chemist had was to run the pool pump for 24 hours after adding the PolyQuat since it is quite viscous and takes quite a while to get distributed evenly.

Nevertheless, it may be unrealistic to have the algaecide last 7 months. Clearly, the chlorine most certainly does not last that long (though in colder water it does last longer than in warmer water). I would suggest adding (if possible) additional chlorine and then PolyQuat during the time your pool is closed (but not when it's frozen over, obviously). The algae probably took hold sometime in the spring as the water was warming up.