wineandcheese23 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Hello, I just added salt chlorinator. I used bromine in a floater before, trying to change it because headaches every morning after use. Also always left skin feeling dry and itchy. I also travel a lot and out of town not able to maintain sanitizer levels, so I think the salt generator may help reduce maintenance. There are several topics I have questions on. After much googling with many varying answers, I think I ended up more confused LOL. This is a long post, so please feel free to be short and sweet since my questions are a bit wordy. I won’t take it rudely SHOCK and BROMIDE HEADACHES: I’ve read mixed opinions on shocking, including on here where shocking is more so frowned upon but SLAMing if CC > FC. I landed on the decision if I kept my bromine levels stable there was no reason to shock. The reason I didn’t like shocking is it took days for my levels to come back down to a safe amount to enter the spa. Am I totally wrong in this? I was reading about bromides and have also never truly understand free vs total chlorine (or bromine). Maybe not shocking was the result of my headaches from bromides building up? If my combined levels are high, adding more shock to increase the free chlorine would render the spa unusable for many many days. I strongly don’t think I was overdosing it. I finally bought sodium thiosulfate to help with this. SALT ELECTRODE WITH BROMINE with NaCL SALT: After adding salt and starting the chlorinating process, I can already sense I’m not going to like the smell. I’ve read you can use NaBR instead of NaCL OR save money by just adding some bromine and it will magically turn the chlorine being made from salt into bromine. Or maybe I misread it and that it’s you can add bromine and it will create a bromine reserve/bank that only kicks in if the chlorine drops too low? It got confusing... TYPES OF SHOCK: I know SLAM is recommended, but Is it OK to shock a salt water based spa with Potassium peroxymonosulfate? Still ok if I convert the chlorine into bromine? Is Potassium peroxymonosulfate what most people abbreviate as MPS or also spelled Potassium Monopersulfate? Is there any benefit to using this over bleach or sodium dichlor? This potassium seems less chemical like but is more expensive. SO MANY SHOCKS: I currently have sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate and also one that doesn’t have dihydrate on the end of it. One is a higher percent. Can I use either of these to SLAM? OXIDIZER NEUTRALIZING?: After the first 12 hours of adding salt and running the chlorinator my reading was 0 total chlorine so I added some sodium dichlor to help jump start it because water was getting cloudy. Ph and alkalinity are good. However my spa I think has a small ozonator. I read that with ozone, your chlorine readings with a salt water generator will typically always be zero as it neutralizes the chlorine? If so how should I know if the water is clean/safe? ENZYMES WORTH IT?: Should I use enzyme treatments with salt spas? I used it occasionally when we got the spa initially with bromine but stopped using it over time. OTHER CHEMICALS: Should I also be using scale and metal control additive? I used to use it when I first got the hot tub but have stopped. My spa is a four winds 500 gallon spa, about 2 years old. I use it maybe once every two weeks and really no one else uses it. I would use it more if it wasn’t for the headaches. I am aware the salt conversion may cause components to rust and fail. I am pretty handy, if they do I am capable of replacing. I use test strips but it sounds like I should switch to non-strip based. Will this Taylor K 2005 suffice? The K 2006 doesnt include bromine. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 I am moving your post to the Hot Tub Water Chemistry section of the forum since it is more appropriate., Where do I begin. So much misinformation. First, A spa is not a swimming pool and you cannot use swimming pool techniques to properly maintain a spa. Second, the chemistry of chlorine and bromine are very different. What works for one does not necessarily work for the other. This will be a lengthy answer as I try to explain so bear with me. I will not be answering your questions in order. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I use test strips but it sounds like I should switch to non-strip based. Will this Taylor K 2005 suffice? The K 2006 doesnt include bromine. Test strips are useless for water balancing. The K-2106 is specifically for bromine but you can use a K=-2006 also. First, you do not need to test CYA with bromine since it has no effect on a bromine spa, only chlorine. To test total bromine you would do the test for free chlorine and multiply the results by 2.25 to get total bromine. Done! No need to test for combined chlorine either. All other tests (pH, acid and base demand, total alkalinity and calcium hardness) are identical in both kits. The K-2005 uses a DPD colorimetric test for sanitizer. The K-2006 and K-2106 use the far superior FAS-DPD test which can test much higher sanitizer levels and is not prone to bleachout nor need sample dilutions to test high sanitizer (shock or SLAM level). Finally, the DPD test uses a comparator with shaded of red while the FAS-DPD test is a titration (drop counting test) with a color change from red to colorless. This is important since the majority of men cannot differentiate between shades of red. Don't get the k-2005. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: Should I also be using scale and metal control additive? Do you have metals in your water? Are you on well water? Is your calcium hardness above 400 ppm? If so, yes. otherwise, no. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: ENZYMES WORTH IT?: In a word, no. Same with phosphate remover. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: After the first 12 hours of adding salt and running the chlorinator my reading was 0 total chlorine You want to test free chlorine. It is also possible that the strip has beached out because of high sanitizer levels. Get a good test kit! It is possible the generator is not working or you might have a biofilm buildup. Have you purged your spa with a spa purge product such as Ahhsome 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: Ph and alkalinity are good. no such thing, what are the actual numbers? 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: read that with ozone, your chlorine readings with a salt water generator will typically always be zero not true, Ozone will destroy some chlorine (or bromine) but it should not cause it to read 0 ppm. something else is going on. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: so how should I know if the water is clean/safe? You have a sanitizer level (chlorine or bromine) in the proper range. easy peasy 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I currently have sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate and also one that doesn’t have dihydrate on the end of it. They are one and the same. Almost all dichlor sold for pool spa use is dihydrate form since the anhydrous form is a class 3 oxidizer (DANGEROUS). Also, dichlor is normally 99% but it might also say 55% available chlorine. It's still the same dichlor. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: Can I use either of these to SLAM? Why are you SLAMMING a spa? First of all, let's clear up shocking and SLAMMING. SLAMMING means to raise the FC to shock level AND KEEP IT THERE by testing and continual adding of chlorine. This is standard procedure for clearning a pool that has algae. The level of chlorine needed is dependent on the CYA level and the type of algae you are trying to kill. This was first brought to the pool and spa community by Ben Powell on his Pool Forum (where I am still a Senior Contributor) because it works. This is where the BBB method of pool care originated. It was not called SLAMMING then but was just the proper way to shock a pool to destroy algae. The term SLAM (shock level and maintain) was created on the spinpoff TFP forum (where I was one of the original moderators when the forum first started). this is because many don't understand that shock is a verb, not a noun. It is something you do , it is not a specific product. If the problem is combined chlorine over .5 ppm (1 ppm for a spa) then you just need to bring the FC to the correct shock level and that usually takes care of the problem for an outdoor pool or spa exposed to sunlight. For indoor pools and covered spas with persistent CC then other methods need to be employed. Be aware that for every 10 ppm FC added dichlor will also add 9 ppm of CYA and this can lead to an overstabilzed tub in a short time! This only applies to a chlorine tub. It is OK to use dichlor until the CYA reaches 20-30 ppm then switch to bleach, which does not add CYA. This is called the dichlor/bleach method. Bromine is a different animal combined bromine is still an efficient sanitizer, unlike combined chlorine which is why we only test total bromine in a bromine spa. However, organics do build up in the water from bather load so shocking weekly help burn them off along with volatile oxidation by products, which might have been the cause of your headaches. This is usually accomplished by adding an oxidizer (usually chlorine or MPS) to burn them off. Adding an oxidizer to a bromine system will activate the bromide bank and create bromine sanitizer. the idea is to bring the total bromine to about 12-15 ppm, leave the tub uncovered, and circulate the water until the bromine has dropped to below 10 ppm. The tub is now usable. Most people shock every week or two but it really depends on how much usage the tub gets. DIchlor is ok for this but bleach is less expensive and works just as well,. Personally, I don't like the acronym SLAM since it is for a specific issue while shocking covers more issues. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I know SLAM is recommended, says who? 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: Is it OK to shock a salt water based spa with Potassium peroxymonosulfate? yes but: MPS (potassium monopersulfate) is a known sensitizer, it will make testing chlorine difficult since it tests as combined chlorine which can make you think you have a persistent CC problems when you don't (Taylor Technologies makes a add on to the K-2006 to remove this interference but it complicates testing). MPS is generally only needed in a spa or indoor pool when there is a persistent CC of .5 for a pool or 1 for a spa that chlorine will not remove. For bromine MPS will activate the bromide bank into bromine sanitizer but, as I said, it's a known sensitizer (as is bromine). It's also a lot more expensive than laundry bleach, which is the same as liquid chlorine and all most people really need. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: his potassium seems less chemical like explain how? It's a chemical and an oxidizer, it is not a sanitizer unless used with silver ions (usually from silver nitrate) in HOT water (Nature 2, Frog, and other 'mineral systems' for spas. I am not a fan, btw. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: s there any benefit to using this over bleach or sodium dichlor? In a word, no. (Unless you have persistent CC as I wrote above). 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: After adding salt and starting the chlorinating process, I can already sense I’m not going to like the smell. If you can smell chlorine then you have combined chlorine (bad chlorine) and need to shock with more chloirne to get rid of it. This is called breakpoint chlorination and is one of the reasons to shock (not SLAM) since normally, you only need to bring the FC high enough to destroy the combined chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water from bathers.) 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I’ve read you can use NaBR instead of NaCL Depends on the salt system. Some cannot be used with sodium bromide, some can. Sodium bromide is what is also used to create your bromide bank in a normal bromide system. When an oxidizer is added it converts the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, which is your bromine sanitizer. If chlorine is your oxidizer, it doesn't matter if it comes from bleach, dichlor, cal hypo or a SWG (which makes bleach by electrolysis of salt) Bromine generators us sodium bromide directly to produce bromine sanitizer. It all depends on how the system is designed on which you can use. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: maybe I misread it and that it’s you can add bromine and it will create a bromine reserve/bank that only kicks in if the chlorine drops too low? no, once you have established your bromide reserve in the water you oxidizer it to convert it to bromine sanitizer, When the sanitizer is consumed it converts back to bromide ions (and some non renewable bromate ions). You oxidize again to bring your sanitizer back. FWIW, bromine tabs are mostly chlorine with just a small amount of bromine to maintain the bromine reserve. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I’ve read mixed opinions on shocking, including on here where shocking is more so frowned upon but SLAMing if CC > FC. I landed on the decision if I kept my bromine levels stable there was no reason to shock. So much wrong here. CC should NEVER be more than FC in a properly maintained chlorine system. If it is there is probably an algae or biofilm problem and you need to raise the FC to the proper level for the CYA and KEEP IT THERE until the problem is gone. (call it SLAMMING if you like) Bromine is a different animal entirely. You need to shock to get rig of organics in the water. Every bather adds sweat, urine and feces to the water no matter how clean they THINK they are. Even if they shower first. 5–10 mL of urine and 10–25 mg of fecal material every time they enter the water. They also sweat and sweat and urine are very similar in chemical makeup. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: The reason I didn’t like shocking is it took days for my levels to come back down to a safe amount to enter the spa. Am I totally wrong in this? I Yes, you are wrong. How high were you shocking and with what? You want to raise your bromine to 12-15 ppm and then circulate the water with the spa uncovered until the bromine is below 10 ppm. it is then ok to enter the spa. It should not take more than a day at most and usually it's in the neighborhood of several hours. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I was reading about bromides and have also never truly understand free vs total chlorine (or bromine). Once again, chlorine and bromine are different animals. FC is good chlorine that sanitizes and does not have a strong smell. CC is bad chlorine (chlorine that has combined with ammonia and other organics in the water ) and had a strong chlorine odor and burns the eyes. You get rid of it by shocking (raising the FC high enough to break the bonds and allow the volatile ammonia and other organics to gas off. The level of chlorine needed depends on the CYA level. The higher the CYA the higher the FC needed to achieve this (or to achieve normal sanitation for that matter). Once chlorine sanitizes it is converted to chloride ions, which are not renewable like bromide ions are. Bromine chemistry is different. You need to establish a bromide ion reserve in the water (easiest way to to add sodium bromine on each fill. You don't need a lot. You then add an oxidizer (i prefer bleach) to convert the bromide ions into bromine sanitizer. When the sanitizer is used up it converts back into bromide ions and the cycle starts again. Some of the bromine is over oxidized into bromate ions are not renewable. There are some health concerns with bromate but it's basically in drinking water and not spas. Ozone tends to speed up the formation of bromate. The cure is to make sure you are doing water changes every 3to 4 months. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: if my combined levels are high, adding more shock to increase the free chlorine would render the spa unusable for many many days. You said you are using bromine, there is no free chlorine. It is total bromine,. One of bromine's advantages is that combined bromine is a good sanitizer, unlink combined chlorine. This is why we only worry about Total bromine, This is also why we shock a bromine spa to get rid of organics in the water that can combine with the bromine sanitizer and produce volatile oxidation byproducts, which need to gas off. 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I strongly don’t think I was overdosing it. From what you said you were and it seem that you were confusing bromine and chlorine and what to do with each. They are different! 12 hours ago, wineandcheese23 said: I finally bought sodium thiosulfate to help with this. should not have been necessary, For chlorine, both hydrogen peroxide and ozone can also lower FC. However, if you needed to to that you were overdosing! Period! End of story! Read these posts, they might help you: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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