chrispomeroy Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 New owner of an old hot tub and in my first winter of use, I had a bit of a freak accident. During a 6 foot snowstorm and high winds, snow forced its way into a small hole in the deck surface, which melted and tripped the breaker. I was visiting family far away and by the time I got back it froze up. Funny part is I had previously installed a wi-fi controller but it has been so flaky that when I saw "no connection" I just assumed there was a problem with the device itself or the internet connection during the storm. Looking for advice before I rebuild this. All installation and setup was from a previous owner, so everything is open to revisit. I can easily reorder all of the broken parts and just re-assemble it, but wanted to ask if there was anything you would recommend changing in the pipe routing, or in the components, to provide better maintainability, performance, and frost avoidance in the future? For example, some ideas: 1. Put in some plywood to raise the "floor" of the spa cabinet up 1 foot, to get it closer to the hot tub and reduce the amount of empty space in the cabinet. Right now my spa runs on full blast every so often in the winter due to the spa pack seeing temps of <55F. This cannot be disabled and it can be quite annoying when you're trying to sleep. 2. Should I opt for a top-load filter housing and mount it to the heater inlet in order to avoid the janky pipe strap anchoring method? Seems like I could use a different filter housing to make the system a bit more stable. 3. Of course I will plug the holes in the deck surface so snow does not get down into this cabinet again. 4. is it worth the trouble to add 2" foam insulation to the interior of this cabinet? Pics below should help get a sense of what I'm working with right now. (some were taken over the summer, before the freeze up) Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratchett Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Before you do anything, do you have any sort of house warranty? I would start by contacting the warranty company, or contact your home insurance company - tell them what happened. There's a small chance your tub is covered by warranty or home insurance and they'll pay for repairs/replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Thanks for replying. I don't have a home warranty and the home insurance policy I chose has a very high deductible to keep the premium low and to focus only on risk of a major/catastrophic loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 They won't cover it anyway. Freeze damage is considered negligence. I would definitely add some insulation, and run a separate 20 amp circuit on a different breaker for a space heater. Get one that is thermostat controlled, not just hi/low/off, and keep the thermostat set low so that it only turns on when it's cold in that box. I would also insulate the exposed pipes above the deck. Hopefully it only froze the equipment, but you might want to close the valves and fill it up before going too far. If you froze the pipes in the spa itself, you might rethink fixing it. I would get an upright filter if there is room to pull it out from the top (2x the height of the filter plus a few inches at least). Putting a flushmount filter in the deck is another option, but that exposes your filter top to the cold. Not a problem if you have the space heater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 17 minutes ago, RDspaguy said: I would definitely add some insulation, and run a separate 20 amp circuit on a different breaker for a space heater. Get one that is thermostat controlled, not just hi/low/off, and keep the thermostat set low so that it only turns on when it's cold in that box. I would also insulate the exposed pipes above the deck. Thanks - great idea! 17 minutes ago, RDspaguy said: Hopefully it only froze the equipment, but you might want to close the valves and fill it up before going too far. If you froze the pipes in the spa itself, you might rethink fixing it. Really worried about this. I was able to get the water to flow out of the filter lines, but when I closed the gate valve on this side I could not get water to drain from the blower side. I believe all the lines from the tub outward are thawed out, but the internal blower lines may be frozen solid. I really hope I don't have to pull off the wooden trim work (its the slat and stainless band style) so it would be a huge pain in the ass in the winter to fix a burst line... 17 minutes ago, RDspaguy said: I would get an upright filter if there is room to pull it out from the top (2x the height of the filter plus a few inches at least). Putting a flushmount filter in the deck is another option, but that exposes your filter top to the cold. Not a problem if you have the space heater. This is already in the works. I just bought a screw top filter that I'm planning to hang from the deck rafter by building a plywood bracket to hold it, and not have to deal with the flimsy pipe hanger and having gallons of water drop whenevr i unscrew to clean the filter. I also thought about deck flush mounting it, but that would mean I would need to run the pipes outside of the box (as the spa is much wider than the box). Still thinking about it.. The other crazy idea I had was spinning the tub 90 degrees and pointing the plumbing outlets where I have more deck space, and building a box with a hinged lid I can mount everything in that would double as a step (and flush mounting the filter in it). It could be tucked against the spa wall so heat would transfer between. A lot more work (since the spa is round), and probably a summer project, but something I have thought about. This would save a lot of hassle going under the deck to do any repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 5 minutes ago, chrispomeroy said: the slat and stainless band style) That's a good thing, most likely. Most tubs of this type are stapled slats and fully foamed, and you are very hard pressed to remove the sides without damage. If a band holds them on you can at least remove them. 9 minutes ago, chrispomeroy said: box with a hinged lid I can mount everything in that would double as a step This is how it's usually done. It can even be a removeable box with 2 or 3 steps that can slide back from the spa, since the side facing the spa is open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2022 I decided to rebuild the system in the same place. All my plumbing is roughed in but not cemented yet and wanted to get an opinion on the layout. New design: All plumbing is much higher now so when I insulate this "control room" it should retain heat better. I installed a much nicer drain valve (blue handle in pic 2) which is 1.5" so should help drain the tub much faster and easier. The new filter is larger, a top-load screw cap design, and has a spring bypass valve. It should be easier to operate than the previous bottom loader. There's just enough clearance to R&R the filter. New gate valves and almost all new PVC. Things left to do: The pump platform is not level - I will be fixing that. I will be adding some rubber mats under the pump & controller. I will add insulation around everything. I have to move the breaker box up higher to get it out of the way of the plumbing. BIG QUESTION: I read somewhere you want the pump assembly to be the lowest point in the system. The way I have this system rough plumbed in today the return pipe is about 1" lower. Will this cause a problem when refilling? I can lower the pump/controller 1-2" if this is best practice to keep it the lowest point in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 22, 2022 Report Share Posted January 22, 2022 2 hours ago, chrispomeroy said: will add insulation around everything. Do not directly insulate the equipment and pumps. Insulate the space, but the pumps and control system need air or they overheat. 2 hours ago, chrispomeroy said: this cause a problem when refilling? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2022 Thanks RD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 22, 2022 Report Share Posted January 22, 2022 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) Cemented all PVC and reassembled everything but now my GFCI subpanel breaker trips when I turn the breaker to ON, after about 3 seconds. I hear the spa pack click twice, the the board LED turns on, and the heater LED. Pump does not start. Heater element measures 9.8 Ohms across element. Next, I disconnected the lines from the GFCI subpanel breaker to the pack, it does not trip with no load. Next, I disconnected the Heater and Pump, (No ozone, no blower, no lights, or other pumps are in use in this system) - breaker still trips after 3 seconds. Besides re-checking all my wiring, what would be my next diagnostic step? Replace the 50amp GFCI breaker? Any other electrical-related common issue that could happen after a freeze-up? Could the fault that occurred which tripped the breaker due to a short from melting snow have broken the breaker? It's possible, but not likely, water got into the subpanel during the snowstorm, but everything is bone dry now. Edited January 24, 2022 by chrispomeroy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 White (neutral) wire from spa must connect to the gfci breaker, which has a pigtail that goes to the neutral bar. Verify it is wired correctly. Any moisture inside the breaker can cause a trip, but would likely happen even under no load. Gfci breakers are very sensitive (they have to be to do their job) and are prone to failure after multiple trips. If the neutral and ground connect at any point between the breaker and the spa, from improper wiring, water, even spiderwebs with condensation, it will trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) I just re-confirmed wiring was set up correctly. (L1,N,L2 spa leads go directly to GFCI breaker, Feeder line connects to 4 subpanel bus bars, and GFCI N pigtail goes to Neutral bar. Then, tested continuity across the Board terminal Ground and Neutral and there was continuity. hmm. I removed the spa L1 & L2 leads from the breaker, and still have continuity. Removed spa Neutral lead from breaker - no continuity. With the breaker and spa leads removed from the subpanel, I tested for continuity from panel Neutral bar to panel Ground bar and it has no continuity, so I think the panel and internal bus bars are correctly isolated. I can't really understand how there could be continuity from Neutral to Ground through the breaker. Even with an internal short, the breaker does not have a path to ground as it just connects to L1,L2,and isolated N bar, but I ordered a new breaker to hopefully fix the problem. Edited January 24, 2022 by chrispomeroy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 16 minutes ago, chrispomeroy said: Removed spa Neutral lead from breaker - no continuity. On the wire or the breaker? 17 minutes ago, chrispomeroy said: With the breaker and spa leads removed from the subpanel, I tested for continuity from panel Neutral bar to panel Ground bar and it has no continuity, so I think the panel and internal bus bars are correctly isolated. The neutral and ground should be bonded in the main panel, and could be in the sub-panel as well depending on how it is mounted/isolated. If the ground and neutral feeding the sub-panel do not have continuity you have a problem between the two panels or in the main panel. 21 minutes ago, chrispomeroy said: can't really understand how there could be continuity from Neutral to Ground through the breaker. There can't, except through the neutral pigtail, which should be grounded via the neutral back to the bond in the main panel. The gfci looks for balance between the two hots and the neutral via magnetic field generation, so it's like a mini amp probe built in to the breaker. Any change in the magnetic balance, from a ground fault, improper wiring, or worn/wet breaker will cause a trip. They are made to trip at .005 amps difference, which can be accomplished by high humidity in some cases. But this could be a lost, or partly lost, ground or neutral wire, or a poor ground at the main panel or even transformer feeding the house. This is known to happen alot in areas in a drought, as the moisture in the soil dries out and reduces the conductivity of the soil the ground rod is in. I would look at nothing but this 60v reading until it is resolved. It could be the only problem or not, but it may damage any new parts you put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Also, the neutral is a current-carrying conductor, and continuity tests cannot be done with voltage present. Make sure power is off while doing continuity checks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted February 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2022 Thanks RD, yeah it's been a while since I wired a subpanel and forgot how it all worked. Thanks for clarifying. Bought a new GFCI breaker. Checked all my wiring again, the subpanel grounds. Disconnected the pump and heater, flipped the breaker and it tripped again after 3 seconds. Looks like I bought a new $200 breaker for no reason... Damn, it's not the breaker. I was left with thinking I had to disconnect the controller again and bring it inside to inspect everything closely. That would be a huge pain. Then I got to wondering, since the controller is starting up for 3 seconds before tripping, perhaps there is some circuitry that will short out the electrical supply in the event something is damaged, a fuse is blown, or something is plugged in wrong. Something that is outside the current supply path perhaps. I noticed on the board I had left a 4pin plug disconnected which is a combined heater high limit sensor and the water temp sensor. Plugged it back in, flipped the breaker, and it stayed on. It continued working even after I added the pump and heater. I'm pretty baffled why this would be designed in this way. I can see the board but wanting to power the pump or heater if it has not temp input, but why short circuit itself? Seems like a little overly cautious and could send an installer or owner like myself down so many confusing diagnostic paths. Is this common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted February 6, 2022 Report Share Posted February 6, 2022 That is not how it works, and I cannot explain why it would trip with the sensors unplugged. That should cause errors on the display and shut down the equipment. On older systems it might turn on the blower if it has one. On 1/24/2022 at 3:40 PM, RDspaguy said: The neutral and ground should be bonded in the main panel, and could be in the sub-panel as well depending on how it is mounted/isolated. If the ground and neutral feeding the sub-panel do not have continuity you have a problem between the two panels or in the main panel. On 1/24/2022 at 3:40 PM, RDspaguy said: would look at nothing but this 60v reading until it is resolved. It could be the only problem or not, but it may damage any new parts you put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 The cursed hot tub saga continues: I have a leak in the pump AND just fried my controller board. Backstory: Soon after my last post I was able to get everything operational again with a new GFCI breaker. However I noticed the pump wet end was leaking. I decided to replace the main shaft seal and O-ring seal. The shaft seal looked at 50% life left and probably didn't need to be replaced but I did it anyways. The wet end unfortunately still leaked once back together, at the lowest bolt hole. I actually slowed the leak down to an intermittent drip by loosening all 4 bolts that hold the wet end together. It appears these are really only supposed to be finger tight? Next I installed some 1" foam board insulation in the cabinet. Filled the tub and all was good (I tried to forget about the wet end drip/leak). Last weekend the tub was a bit overfilled and some water overflowed. This has never caused any issue in the past. But -- this time due to the piece of foam board insulation I installed, the water was unfortunately channeled to drip directly on top of the control board enclosure. (remember this is an old Spa that has the controls and pump plumbed below it under my deck) The water then dripped directly onto the main board enclosure and pooled at the bottom just enough to create a "puddle" only a few milimeters deep which caused an electrical arc within the lower left corner of the control board. What a disaster! Going forward I don't think i will ever buy a spa controller that is not sealed from water entering from the top. Even more frustrating was seeing how little clearance there was between the enclosure and circuit board. If the enclosure was just 5mm bigger, the water wouldn't have created the electrical arc. It was a Gecko control board packaged and sold by Spaguts.com. I'm now shopping for a new heater/controller combination. Pics of the damage below: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Better pic below close up after I removed the heater tube. Seems like the enclosure is too small for the circuit board. Even if there were perhaps drain holes in the back of the enclosure, the surface tension of water lends itself to bridge the gap if a small bit of water would collect here. I also understand there is a circuit board clip out of place, but thecircuit board is still centered in the enclosure, and there's no room to move it any higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Looking for recommendations of a new spa pack. My requirements are Reliable / simple design Current model (not old stock) water resistant (as much as possible) supports 1 2-speed pump can be controlled by Wi-Fi 5.5kW heater Runs on 50 amp 240V I do not use a blower, multiple pumps / circ pump, ozonator, lights, or any other features. Right now I am looking at the Balboa BP100 with Wi-Fi Adapter. Seems like the Balboa BP 7 is also very common but ideally I do not need a control board that supports 4 pumps. Is there any downside to the Balboa BP100 for my application versus the BP7, BP501, or BP2000 or another model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Also wondering how the model numbers and model names work with Balboa (and other brands more generally). For example when Balboa sells their "BP-100" in 4-5 different versions with different configurations (number of pumps enabled, voltage, etc) all of these "submodels" are simply a convenience for the installer and not really a different model correct? Meaning - the top level product "BP-100" is the same and can be reconfigured using wiring, jumpers, or DIP switches to get whatever config desired? I found a BP-100 online equipped with the 4kW heater, but the model supports 4kW and 5.5kW heaters via different heating elements. Is this configurable by me if I buy the right element? Or are certain sub models (e.g. BP-100G1, vs BP-100G2 etc) fixed to a certain heating output? Last question - some of these spa pack bundles include either the TP200T or TP200W topside control. Both are 4 button controls, just one is designed for a 2-pump system vs 1 pump. (difference being the TP200W has a temperature up and down button) Are these the same controls simply with a different decal on top or are they actually different mechanical parts? I'm guessing these two topside controls are the same mechanical part and use a different decal where each of the 4 buttons may play a different role depending on the number of pumps and other accessories enabled in the configuration but wanted to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispomeroy Posted January 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 Since I already have a Gecko (branded as SpaGuts) control board it probably would have made sense to buy a new Gecko in.ye or in.xe; that way I could reuse my top side controls, pump cables, and my existing Wi-Fi adapter. A few reasons made me switch to a Balboa BP7 instead: Pretty much all of the Geckos I found in their mid range category support both 220V 4kW and 5.5kW --- but --- come equipped with a 4kW heater. I couldn't find any online that had the 5.5kW for a reasonable price. Also Gecko seems to be only sold by obscure online stores. I didn't want the hassle of trying to find the right 5.5kW heater element and replacing the 4kW without blowing something up. SpaDepot.com carries a Balboa BP7 that they configure for customers, and have always shown responsive support when I call/email them. Plus I could buy my PVC fittings from them at the same time. The Balboa kit included the topside control and cables for $518, so it felt like it came with the package. I'll sell the kn.200 Gecko topside control. I found a Balboa wi-fi module for $160 on ebay which was a fair price. The Balboa unit acts as its own Wi-Fi endpoint making it simpler to connect to one of my access points. With the Gecko unit - its a 2 piece system using a hub to be installed in an Ethernet port and for my setup this is much further away from the tub than my nearest Access Point. During high snowfall years, I would get intermittent signal between the two Gecko devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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