Spa Frog

[lindal]

I am new to the spa water care. I have read that the spa frog works with the bromine tablets. I am using bromine tablets and the mps shock. I have not had any problems yet except for a few bubbles (only when we wear suits in the tub). This is going on the 4th week I have had the spa.

I am wondering if I should get the spa frog or just keep doing what I am doing? I check the water everyday and it has been pretty stable (low on bromine a few times, just added more tablets). I think I should have went with chlorine but I didn't. Someone had suggested the bromine due to skin problems, so that is what I went with.

Any suggestions or ideas on the spa frog? A pool dealer strongly advised against it because of the metals it puts in the water. She suggested that it would cause cancer. I haven't been able to find any information on the spa frog good or bad. I did see that Nature 2 can not be used with bromine. The local spa pool chemical supply place told me to use Nature 2 because that is what they had. I can't seem to get good answers from the local guys.

[hottub.pool_boy]

everything i know about nature2 and bromine is they are incompatible. King Tech-, makers of Frog, may have some new innovative technology on getting bromine and silver to work together. We do not sell it.

Bromine tabs do work fine, best for a spa with infrequent use and no ozone. In addition to the tabs, you can use granular Bromine, Granular Dichlor(chlorine) and/or your mps.

question for you. do you notice your ph dropping in the spa? bromine tabs are very acidic.

[lindal]

everything i know about nature2 and bromine is they are incompatible. King Tech-, makers of Frog, may have some new innovative technology on getting bromine and silver to work together. We do not sell it.

Bromine tabs do work fine, best for a spa with infrequent use and no ozone. In addition to the tabs, you can use granular Bromine, Granular Dichlor(chlorine) and/or your mps.

question for you. do you notice your ph dropping in the spa? bromine tabs are very acidic.

It did drop at first. It took a few days to get the ph to stay in the normal range. It has been doing great for the last 3 weeks. We do get in it everyday. So, I check the water everyday. I have shocked it about 2 times a week, depending on how many people were in it. I keep reading on the spa frog and I am not sure it would be beneficial. Sometimes I think we tend to buy everything and we don't need it. So, I am just checking to see if I really need to use something else.

[lindal]

I bought the spa frog. I have not put it in yet because it is almost time to change the water and the spa frog says not to reuse after it is wet even if it seems to still have product in it.

Has anyone else used this product?

[thestallion]

There is a difference in the frog and N-2 , the Frog is epa approved to work with bromine, the minerals they use are ground down to and will get into your water within 48 hours after you add them , N-2 takes about 2 weeks (read the package) both work but the frog works with either di chlor or bromine. I would say after a fresh fill to wait about 2 or 3 days before installing the frog if you add any stain and scale control.

[lindal]

Thanks,

I am using Bromine so that is why I chose the frog. I can't find a lot of info on it. I know that a few pool places around here sell the floating system but the people in the store know very little about it.

I just wonder if it is worth the trouble to get one every fill or not. I guess I will find out!

[thestallion]

Thanks,

I am using Bromine so that is why I chose the frog. I can't find a lot of info on it. I know that a few pool places around here sell the floating system but the people in the store know very little about it.

I just wonder if it is worth the trouble to get one every fill or not. I guess I will find out!

What silver based minerals do is to make the bacteria walls softer thus requiring less of a sanitizer no matter the type, that is why the ppm are less with the frog or N-2.

[waterbear]

N2 is a copper/silver system while the Frog is a Silver system (their website used to say it was a silver/zinc system but they have taken all references to zinc out.) Silver is bacteriostatic but has very slow kill times which is why the residual chlorine or bromine is necessary. Silver does not kill viruses either but chlorine and bromine do. The copper in the N2 is algaestatic.

[thestallion]

N2 is a copper/silver system while the Frog is a Silver system (their website used to say it was a silver/zinc system but they have taken all references to zinc out.) Silver is bacteriostatic but has very slow kill times which is why the residual chlorine or bromine is necessary. Silver does not kill viruses either but chlorine and bromine do. The copper in the N2 is algaestatic.

That is interesting since in speaking with N-2 people at some of the trade shows, they have always told me it was a silver based mineral system first, meaning silver is the main part of it. You seem to be implying the it is a cooper system first, since you always list the highest % first. I am sure you can as well as most any dealer carry both. I think both work equally but the frog is more flexible and will get into the water in less time.

[waterbear]

That is interesting since in speaking with N-2 people at some of the trade shows, they have always told me it was a silver based mineral system first, meaning silver is the main part of it. You seem to be implying the it is a cooper system first, since you always list the highest % first. I am sure you can as well as most any dealer carry both. I think both work equally but the frog is more flexible and will get into the water in less time.

Wheb I refer to the N2 as a copper/silver system I am only referring to the ingredients, not the amount of each. Zodiac lists the ingredients on their cartridge boxes as copper from copper sulfate pentahydrate and silver from silver nitrate and they do list the copper first. Since it is next to impossible to test silver levels outside of a laboratory it's difficult to know the actual concentrations of the silver ions in the water. However. I do test a lot of N2 owner's water and they usually have copper levels in the range of .12-.18 ppm (testing done with Lamotte chemistry and colorimeter). This is a very low copper level and is even less than is usually used as an algaecide (.3 to .6 ppm copper). What I find interesting is how Zodiac has recently redone their instructions and no longer recommend a .5 ppm FC residual but have bumped it up to 1 ppm or 2 ppm on some of their international websites. The biggest problem with silver is that it has a very slow kill time. In water purification contact time is a moot point but in an open system like a spa or pool it becomes much more important.

[thestallion]

Wheb I refer to the N2 as a copper/silver system I am only referring to the ingredients, not the amount of each. Zodiac lists the ingredients on their cartridge boxes as copper from copper sulfate pentahydrate and silver from silver nitrate and they do list the copper first. Since it is next to impossible to test silver levels outside of a laboratory it's difficult to know the actual concentrations of the silver ions in the water. However. I do test a lot of N2 owner's water and they usually have copper levels in the range of .12-.18 ppm (testing done with Lamotte chemistry and colorimeter). This is a very low copper level and is even less than is usually used as an algaecide (.3 to .6 ppm copper). What I find interesting is how Zodiac has recently redone their instructions and no longer recommend a .5 ppm FC residual but have bumped it up to 1 ppm or 2 ppm on some of their international websites. The biggest problem with silver is that it has a very slow kill time. In water purification contact time is a moot point but in an open system like a spa or pool it becomes much more important.

You are correct about silver and its kill time, that's why in and of itself it should not be used alone to sanitize water, but when coupled with bromine or di chlor that it will aid in breaking down or softening the bacteria walls thus the need for lower ppm than the sanitizers on their own.

[waterbear]

You are correct about silver and its kill time, that's why in and of itself it should not be used alone to sanitize water, but when coupled with bromine or di chlor that it will aid in breaking down or softening the bacteria walls thus the need for lower ppm than the sanitizers on their own.

But the question remains just how low can the sanitizer level be lowered to achieve proper sanitation. Recent research on kill times seem to indicates that for chorine it is about 2 ppm and since it is generally aceepted that higher bromine levels are required to achieve the same sanitation level as chlorine it would seem to follow that would also be true when used in conjucntion with silver. More research is really needed in this area. Also, King technoliges does use copper in the form of their algaecide, FrogBam. This would make it a copper/silver system also. Silver has NO algaestatic properties which is why most ionizers are either copper or copper/silver. They also have conflicting information on their website. They used to state that the Frog contained silver, zinc and limestone but have recently taken all references to zinc out except in their description of Instant Frog.where they say it contains the same 'minerals' as their pool frog system and do say it contains zinc. I know of no use of zinc in water purification and have been able to find no references to it's use. IT seems that they changed their website information but forget to change this. Can anyone explain what the zinc is for...they used to indicate that it was one of the minerals that helped sanitize. A lot of claims are made for products that sanitize water but it really boils down to the fact that most of these do not hold up under close scrutiny. (anyone remember magnets or how about all the enzyme products that are coming out that claim to elimitate the need for a santizer but when you read their instructions they say to add chlorine when the water smells or gets cloudy! And let's not forget all the copper based liquids out there that have an epa registration number as an algaecide, as all copper products do, that put themselves forth as santiizing systems!)

I am not saying that products like N2 and the frog don't work. I just think that some guidelines need to be set at to safe sanitizer levels to be used with them. In the case of N2, if you read their updated instructions included in the 20006 copryright boxes of spa cartridges in the US it is not longer a "low chlorine recipe" or MPS only recipe. It now instructed people to shock to what amounts to 10 ppm FC (No more shocking with dichlor weekly but it can be used daily) and to maintain a 2 ppm FC level. I find this a big change from their older instructions that promoted a .5 ppm FC for spas.

Finally, silver does not "soften or break down cell walls" as you have indicated (this sounds like sales hype to me) but it's santizing ablitlty comes from what is known as the "oligodynamic effect"., which is the toxic effect that certain metals have on living cells. Many metal ions exhibit this effect such as mercury, lead, gold, copper, and the heavy metals but most are also extremely toxic to humans. Silver has a lower toxicity to humans, which is why it is often used as a bacteriostat. The exact way silver and other metal ions kill is not really known but it is suspected that they denature enzymes, which are proteins, necessary for life functions in the organism by binding to reactive sites on the protein and therefore deactive them. This effect takes many hours (the long kill time) and both gram+ and gram- bacteria can develop a resistance to silver much like they can become resistant to other antibiotics. Silver's use as a bacteristat is not new. Silver nitrate (called Lunar Caustic) had been used in medicine to 'cauterize' wounds before the advent of modern antibiotics and it is still applied to the eyes of newborn babies to prevent the spread of gonorrhoea and chlamydia from the mother, which could cause blindness.

[thestallion]

You are clearly more knowledgeable about this chemistry than am I... 2 questions....

How is it the Frog and also I believe is N-2 both EPA certified to do exactly as they claim? To be EPA certified you must prove your product does as you claim and that the ppm the claims make will in fact keep bacteria levels at a safe level even with those lower PPM claims.

When you say silver does not help soften the walls of bacteria, while that may be a very simplistic way of putting it, for practical reasons that is exactly what it does or at least that is my understanding based on conversations with the Frog folks.

[waterbear]

You are clearly more knowledgeable about this chemistry than am I... 2 questions....

How is it the Frog and also I believe is N-2 both EPA certified to do exactly as they claim? To be EPA certified you must prove your product does as you claim and that the ppm the claims make will in fact keep bacteria levels at a safe level even with those lower PPM claims.

When you say silver does not help soften the walls of bacteria, while that may be a very simplistic way of putting it, for practical reasons that is exactly what it does or at least that is my understanding based on conversations with the Frog folks.

I believe the N2 has an EPA registration number but not a certification. King technology does not list an EPA number anywhere on their website. Just look at the claims made for many of the enzyme and copper products (I don't want to mention names but they are "magic" and "blue" products. All these products have EPA registration numbers as do all pesticides (anti bacterial and anti algae agents are considered pesticides. Every algaecide and sanitizer sold has an EPA registration number.) As far as N2 they have changed their information on what chlorine levels they should be used with. Look at the various Zodiac international websites and see the differences in the amount of santizer that is recommened with them. As far as KIngTechnolity goes on their website they recommend a minimum of 1 ppm FC or bromine with their system. This is in line with current EPA guidlines for ionizers and is double what it was just a year ago. Australia is recommending a minimum 2 ppm (normal levels) for ionizer systems. There is a lot of marketing hype concerning ionizers, whether passive such as N2 and Frog or active units like ecosmarte.

Your conversation with KingTechlology as to silver softening bacterial walls is more marketing hype and is not really a good description of how silver or other metals are understood to work at killing bacteria. Don't forget that just a few years ago these ionizer systems were being marketed at stand alone systems that did not require any residual sanitizer. If all they did was soften bacteria cell walls they would not do anything at all without an additoinal sanitizer.

Bottom line is this, are they cost effective. I have to answer NO. The money spent on replacement cartridges is MUCH higher than would be spent just maintaining a higher FC or bromine level. They do create continuing profits for dealers, however, which might explain why they are often recommened. (We sell N2 where I work and I have several customers that shell out over $200 a year for pool cartridges or over $120 a year for spa cartridges). If the products are so good why does KingTechnology sell FrogBAM, which is your standared 3 month chelated copper algaecide that is available from many different manufacturers. Perhaps because reduced santizer levels in conjucntion with silver will not effectively kill algae?

There are a lot of products that are sold for pools and spas and some are of dubious value. For an example, there are companies still selling magnets even though these have been debunked time and again as pseudoscience and have no value! There is a company in Louisianna that sells copper sulfate pentahydrate as a swimming pool sanitizer and chlorine replacepment. They post an EPA registration number but this is simply the number for the copper sulfate that they use, not for their branded product as far as I can tell. We all know that this is not a stand alone santizier! The motivation is profit.

There are auxillery products and devices that have proven their merit such as oznoators, borates, and enzymes, when used in conjunction with a standard santizer system and all of these can help reduce sanitizer demand but it does not follow that because they reduce sanitizer demand that you can use a lower level of sanitizer with them, only that it might take less to maintain the same level.

[lindal]

What I am getting from this is that the frog is not worth the $'s. I am glad I did not buy from the local dealer at $32 a cartridge. I bought online for $18. I will put it in when I change the water and not expect a great improvement in water quality.

I figure that a lot of the products out there are not needed to keep the water up. I used to care for a above ground pool so I have an idea on water care but this is the first time for a spa.

I want to keep the water safe at the lowest price of course. But, I will spend more if I need to. I am sure everyone else has the same goals.

Thanks for all the discussion on this topic.

Linda