Equipment In Circulation Path

[dandreye]

Hi All,

Designing an in-ground spa for myself at the moment. Will the following dedicated circulation path (completely detached from jets path) give me grief anywhere?

2"S suction > Waterway 310-6600 2"S Hair & Lint trap > Rainbow RCF172535 2"S filter w/ chemical dispenser > Balboa VS510s spa pack > Aqua-Flo CMHP circ pump > DEL UI211 2"S ozone injector manifold assembly > 2"S return

The idea behind placing circ pump after spa pack is to make it pull water through most of the path instead of pushing it, thereby reducing pressure (Balboa M7 systems have no pressure switch - they measure flow using sensors).

Many thanks in advance!

[PreservedSwine]

That style filter is typically a pressure filter. You may want to check with the manufacturer to ensure it will still function properly on the vacuum side of the pump. I'm trying to recall if I've ever seen one installed on the vacuum side, but every one I've seen has been on the pressure side.

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

Thank you: will do. I could alternatively install it after my circ pump indeed but that way both the heater and the pump will be getting dirtier than otherwise, which is exactly what I am hoping to avoid. If that's the only issue perhaps I'd rather swap my filter for a vacuum side friendly one.

One more idea I have on my mind is installing ozone injector manifold assembly vertically on the upwards facing discharge port of my circ pump. Is that OK or it has to be installed horizontally?

[Dr. Spa]

So you want to avoid something, that components are designed for (and some designed to NOT accommodate what you're planning) and isn't a problem. Why?

[dandreye]

Dr. Spa:

I wish I knew their respective limitations but I don't as it all is entirely new to me. Understanding what's allowed and what's not is the first step, that's why I'm here. If there's a filter that can be installed at the suction side (before spa pack and pump) I only see the benefits of that mentioned above and just trying to find out if there are any negative sides in such design. As for the ozone injector manifold assembly orientation, it probably won't be a problem to install it horizontally either, I just wanted to find out if vertically is fine in case I'll have to consider installing it that way.

[PreservedSwine]

Double post

[PreservedSwine]

Additionally, the basket (waterway lint trap) attaches to the front of the pump, it is meant to help the pump maintain a prime, as well as protect the pump from leaves. It's not meant to be installed separately.

I applaud anyone looking to save a buck, but these types of errors simply shouldn't happen, and I suspect there could be more unspoken bad idea's we're not aware of, that will end up costing you more time and money to correct, than simply hiring someone to do it right the first time.

Do yourself a favor- hire a pro to hold your hand and design a system for you. Or perhaps buy or just copy a pre-made pack with individual components. Don't re-invent the wheel.

Jet pressure is a product of volume. You're not changing the volume of water in any shape, way, or form, where you place the spa-pack in relation to the pump. You want pressure at the jets. Placing the pump after all the equipment reduces the vacuum, and you'll end up with no more pressure at the jets than if you place the pump before all the equipment.

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

From my post #1:

Will the following dedicated circulation path (completely detached from jets path) give me grief anywhere?

Besides a dedicated circ pump I will have 2 separate jet pumps (WW Exec 5hp), each in its own separate loop: 2"S 250gpm suction > jet pump > 2 (out of 4) seats with jets. I calculated flow and pressure using WW methodology long ago, before having to put this project on hold (resuming it only now). Jet pumps are 258gpm max each and 2 seats with jets are around 200gpm total, the hoses are 3/4"S at the jets and 2"S everywhere else, no sharp corners etc, so I think I should be fine, just hope I won't get blown out of my spa. Again it has nothing to do with the dedicated circulation path in question, and it has nothing to do with looking for any "cheap" money saving opportunities either. I just thought perhaps the need to put the pump before spa pack is obsolete now that modern ones like Balboa M7 systems don't have pressure switches to detect the presence of water in the heater, and if so indeed why not take advantage of it other things equal.

Thanks for the hint about easier priming with the basket on the pump - I clearly didn't take that into account. So does it mean that it's a badly designed circ path in this spa too? (starting from 35s into the video onwards)

It's after seeing it I also started thinking why not, as the basket (if present at all) is clearly not on this Laing E14 pump, which attaches directly to the heater. That spa looks like a ready product probably selling to the public in large quantities and designed by some professionals I would expect...

[PreservedSwine]

Any pump can develop an air lock, it has nothing to do with pump design. It has to do with where does the air go that's trapped in the plumbing as you fill the spa. An air lock like this is only a potential issue each time you drain and refill the spa.

The basket you linked to is for pool equipment that is above the waterline, and is not meant for use with your circ pump, or in any spa for that matter.

The M-7 balboa pack's are great, as they can be placed before or after the pump. But I urge you to check with the manufacturer of the filter. I've never heard of a pressure filter being used on the vacuum side of a pump.

Many manufacturers place the circ pump after the filter, but NONE of them use a pressure filter, as the one you have linked.

Also, make sure the circ pump you choose has high enough volume for the M7 pack.

Good luck!

*** How many intakes for each 5HP pump are you using?

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

What would be the best basket for an inground spa like mine? I didn't realise WW 310-6600 is a spa product, so if it's not ideally suitable then it's not an option (fortunately I haven't bought it yet). As for the video above, I was only referring to it as an example of circ pump installation after Balboa M-7 spa pack, hence no basket on the pump. Of course if such pump location is "net negative" I'll have to install it #1 in the path.

Checking with Pentair wrt installation side of their Rainbow filters at the moment.

What's best circ pump make/model was actually my very next question ) I personally liked Laing E14 a lot (rated for 35gpm max) based on the marketing materials (low amp draw being particularly attractive) but am being told from everywhere that it won't move enough water: afaik 20gpm is the very minimum a Balboa M7 pack requires, while something closer to 40gpm would be optimal. In particular here's a thread discussing it:

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/?showtopic=44893

If it's too risky to go for such pump even with my 2"S dedicated circ loop that will be hardly obstructed by anything unnecessary I'll then likely have to go for an Aqua-Flo CMHP, which would be good enough for sure. I understand Laing E14 was designed primarily with installations requiring small size in mind, right? Fortunately I'm not constrained by anything, especially room.

[PreservedSwine]

Either pump would be fine. They're both quality, and move enough water to avoid any temp sensor quagmire on the M-7's.

Are the pumps going to be above the water level?

If so, consider skipping the circ pump. Plumb in one of the 5HP's through the Balboa pack, just use a 2sp pump. You'll need baskets on both jet pumps if they're above the water level.

If you use a circ pump, it will need the basket as well, assuming it too will be above the water level. Priming those is going to be a royal pain. The baskets attach directly to the pumps.

**How many suction's are you plumbing in for each 5 HP pump?

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

In that case perhaps I'll still take the risk and have a Laing E14 first and then depending on how long it lasts decide if I want another one of those or an Aqua-Flo CMHP.

As per current design all 3 pumps are to be installed below water level in a dedicated "machine compartment" large enough for decent ventilation, likely close to the level of spa bottom about 3ft below ground level (out of noise considerations) but if there are any problems with that I can move any or all of them elsewhere. I can't have one of jet pumps do circ pump role though: they're already purchased and are both single speed. I also didn't want any of them to die prematurely as they're no less royal pain to get over to my place. Swapping a circ pump would be a lot less of an issue.

So these baskets don't work properly or at all if installed below water level then? Is there anything else like that to filter it out before circ pump? A picture would be ideal (I haven't seen any somehow while browsing spa designs).

For each 5hp pump I was planning a single 250gpm WW 640-4697 2"S suction and so bought a few of those. If one is not enough I can easily double them and merge their respective 2"S hoses using WW 672-8000. Was even thinking of using a similarly looking 2.5"S x (2) 2"S reducer to merge both 2"S into a single 2.5"S as long as it improves anything (my jet pumps are a 2"S suction version).

I have a picture of already built concrete (outer) shell at hand to share but it doesn't seem possible to insert a picture here - only a URL.

[PreservedSwine]

You're going to kill someone.

I can longer help you. Hire someone. A single suction for either of those pumps is beyond dangerous.

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

You're referring to that Pool & Spa safety act, right? Thanks a lot for the warning: I didn't realize it'd be that bad as uneven covers on those suctions seemed safe to me... (looks like WW had those thoughts on their mind when designing them since the very beginning). Will 4x 250gpm suctions per 2 such pumps make it safe or will only make it worse? I bought 5 of them total back then (4 to install + 1 spare).

[dandreye]

Hi All,

Could anyone please suggest a way of removing leaves, hair etc. in an in-ground spa where installing a skimmer filter inside the spa is not an option? Based on the discussion above I understand that hair and lint traps like Waterway 310-6600 are not suitable in my case. Even if my cartridge filter Rainbow RCF 172535 can be mounted at the suction side (I'm currently awaiting a response from Pentair if it can indeed) it'll likely need a lot more frequent inspection/cleaning in case of no hair and lint trap whatsoever installed in front of it.

Many thanks in anticipation!

[PreservedSwine]

I'm not referring to the ACT, I'm referring to the fact that you don't know what you're doing. The fact that we just stumbled across previous mistakes led me to believe were many more, some deadly, that you might make, such as this one.

It is irresponsible, and dangerous, of you to continue.

I strongly urge you to stop doing this on your own. If you value your life, and the lives of anyone who will be in the spa, just stop.

[dandreye]

PreservedSwine:

I'm here to learn what to do and how to do it correctly. To get someone to do something for me properly (meaning in my best interests) I first need to understand inside out what I really want, which is all about detail. At the moment I need to understand all my possible options at removing hair, lint etc. so that I don't have to take it all out of my equipment downstream all the time.

Do my precise technical questions violate any forum rules by chance? If not... why not just ignore them if you find them personally disturbing in any way. Hopefully someone else will find them sensible enough and answer, which will help me a lot.

Update: just heard back from Pentair, who say my Rainbow RCF 172535 top load cartridge filter cannot be mounted on the suction side of circ pump. I'm fine with the pump going first, just need some pre-filtering capability on its suction side.