Spa Frog Vs Ace Vs Neither

[Wades]

Looking into getting a hot tub. Never owned one. Seems the Spa Frog and Ace system claim to be very low maintenance, however their also seem to be a few threads on here about complications with the ACE system and the cell. At 650 a piece and the 1400-1500 price tag to buy it up front (assuming they don't work me a deal on it) I don't want to add anything that is just unnecessary and going to lead to problems. That being said I would also like to try and keep the chemical use down to a little as possible and not tie myself up constantly trouble shooting levels or systems.

Anybody have any advice?

[Roger]

What are the readings of your source water right out of the tap? The last place I had the water came from the tap needed nothing but a little baking soda to get it balanced. With that I used a small amount of dichlor after each soak and shocked about every other week with dichlor. Occasionally added more baking soda to keep it balanced. Seems pretty simple and inexpensive to me. I even went as far as putting a TBLS of dichlor in a bunch of old film containers. Then bring one out for the soak.

Let us know what your water reads right now.

[Isaac-1]

These systems do two different things, Spa Frog is a mineral systems and the ACE systems is a diamond doped electrode Saltwater Chlorine generator. The big downside to all of the mineral systems like Spa Frog is that they primarily work against algae, and do little to nothing against bacteria or viruses. The big down side to this is when using a chlorine system visible algae is a major warning sign something is going wrong in your water. By contrast the ACE system generates chlorine much the same as if you were to add chlorine manually to the water, it does this by passing an electrical current through a chlorine generating cell mounted inline in the plumbing, one of the big advantages of the ACE system over other many brands of SWCG's is the diamond doped electrodes generate mode potent chlorine radicals than standard electrodes, it also works at a lower salt concentration than most other SWCG's which makes the water less corrosive to metal plumbing fittings, etc.

[Apollo217]

These systems do two different things, Spa Frog is a mineral systems and the ACE systems is a diamond doped electrode Saltwater Chlorine generator. The big downside to all of the mineral systems like Spa Frog is that they primarily work against algae, and do little to nothing against bacteria or viruses. The big down side to this is when using a chlorine system visible algae is a major warning sign something is going wrong in your water. By contrast the ACE system generates chlorine much the same as if you were to add chlorine manually to the water, it does this by passing an electrical current through a chlorine generating cell mounted inline in the plumbing, one of the big advantages of the ACE system over other many brands of SWCG's is the diamond doped electrodes generate mode potent chlorine radicals than standard electrodes, it also works at a lower salt concentration than most other SWCG's which makes the water less corrosive to metal plumbing fittings, etc.

The spa frog system is a 2 part system with the minerals and a bromine mix. Bromine is the sanitizer and it's very easy to use. So the spa frog system works like any other sanitizer. I'm a marquis dealer and this is used in the their line of tubs as well as caldera. It works great. The main problem I have with the ace system is the number of failures I've heard about with it. I've heard from hs dealers that it works great and the cell lasts in smaller tubs but burns out quickly in bigger tubs like the grandee or the gleam. I think it's a great idea just wish hs worked out all the kinks before pushing it

[Dunecritter]

I just joined this forum today...I've recently started selling HS hot tubs and have been a hot tub owner for over 20 years. I love hot tubs but have always struggled with water care regardless what brand of tub I owned (I get bzy and side tracked and forget to constantly sanitize/shock my tubs). I've recently (5 Months) ago purchased a new HS Grandee with the ACE system...My understanding is HS has had some bumps in the road when they first released the ACE systems a few years ago but have Ironed out the issues since then. My tub is now 5 months old with the original water in it and the water is as clean and fresh as if it had just filled it up. I'm amazed thus far and I have never added any bottled sanitizer yet. I use my tub 4-5 times a week except for the last 2 weeks (been bzy with projects) and I'm loving it! My only concern is will I get the life expectancy out of my cell....Only time will tell but I do have high hopes as my water care has NEVER been this easy and clear. I know the ACE system works great with my personal experience but I know nothing about the spa frog. I have sold now 7 tubs equipped with the ACE system this year so far and everyone I have sold is having success with it. The best thing is my water is always soak ready with the ACE even if I neglected water care for a few weeks or so.

[Isaac-1]

Dunecritter, do you also have an Ozonator installed with the Ace saltwater system?

[chem geek]

Dunecritter,

I had posted in another forum responding to your posts that there were reports of some problems but I didn't want to link to those on the other forum since I wasn't sure of their policy regarding such cross links to other forums. At any rate, now that you are here, you should look at the following:

Ace Salt Water System (Hot Spring)

Disconnecting Ace Saltwater System Hotsprings Grandee

Hot Springs Ace System, Waste Of Money

Questions About Hot Springs Ace System

In summary, there were more problems initially and some design changes improved this, but there are still some issues mostly with failing cells. Most systems are working well and Hot Springs has generally been very good at addressing problems. The system does require care, especially keeping the calcium level low (Hot Springs has a product Vanishing Act to help with that) and the cell may need to be cleaned regularly.

So as a new dealer for this system you'll know how things really are after your customers have had the system for at least a year since those who have problems usually see them in the 6 month to year and a half timeframe. As I've written elsewhere, when it's working it's a great system since it is not only a saltwater chlorine generator but the boron-doped diamond electrodes produce hydroxyl radicals and other active oxygen species so somewhat similar to having an ozonator since ozone breaks down into hydroxyl radicals. Just keep in mind that for spas with very heavy use or inconsistent use you'll want users to supplement by adding chlorine after their soak. The use of boost mode will wear out the cells faster (as with any saltwater chlorine generator). Also, if one never uses any stabilized chlorine then having no Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water will have the active chlorine level be stronger than necessary so to maximize life of spa components including hot tub covers and to reduce the oxidation rate of swimsuits, skin and hair you'll want some CYA (say, 30 ppm) in the water. Unfortunately, I don't know the CYA breakdown rate in such spas -- in regular spas it drops at around 5 ppm per month.

[NHSpa]

I've owned a Hot Springs tub for a little over three years and I've had three Ace salt cell failures.

The manufacturer replaced the first two under warranty but after my most recent failure they told me I am pretty much on my own (total replacement cost of about $800). They also drilled out a standpipe in the filter area afer the second failure because they thought that might be the reason for the cells going bad. My water chemistry is good and I clean the filters and ACE salt cell as specified. After this last failure I've decided to just maintain the tub by manually adding chlorine.

Based on my experience I would not recommend installing the ACE system. They are expensive and prone to repeated failures.

[Dunecritter]

NHSpa....You are one of the original ACE system owners (obviously since yours is over three years old) out there that has had a poor experience with your ACE system...I'm not sure what has been changed on the original version that you own VS the newest version that I own...I am not sure that I won't have the same issues but I surely hope I don't as Its a GREAT working system And so far I love it. I have been told it has been completely revamped but not sure to what degree that is. I'm sorry to hear about your issues tho and I am a previous ASE auto service tech and know better that to ever buy a new model AUTO the first year its released...Regardless of how "COOL" it looks and no matter how bad I want to drive it home.

[chem geek]

A Hot Springs representative with username "Hot Springs Ace" has described some of the changes that were made. I quote from those posts below, but they are in the thread from the first link I gave (did you read that thread? you really should if you haven't).

1) The amount of circ pump flow was not really the issue in those earlier cells so the answer wasn't a higher flow pump. When we made the change to the standpipe I know a lot of people at first were skeptical that such a seemingly minor change was going to make much of a difference but indeed it corrected the problem immediately by directly the flow so it would go through the cell point whereas it was before it was going around it. It was the pattern of flow issue, not the amount of flow.

The ACE system was introduced in January of 2010, after over three years of testing and many more years of research and development. Yet, as with any new technology, there were still things we learned only after this system was in the backyards of many Hot Spring owners. Most notably, we eventually identified a variety of circumstances that could lead to a much shorter than anticipated cell life. It is important to note that not every ACE customer, even from the beginning, had or has issues. The vast majority of the installed ACE systems have performed well.

At this point, we have made modifications to the system, and we have improved the information available to ensure our customers understand how to use the system, and how to maximize cell life. We are very confident that the ACE system as it exists today performs exactly as promised.

Since the launch, we have worked very closely with our dealers and customers to resolve any ACE product issues. We continue to stand behind our products and our promise of the Absolute Best Hot Tub Ownership Experience. We strive to do everything within our power to ensure that our customers are truly satisfied. While incidences of cell issues do continue to surface from time to time (with less and less frequency), we believe that these cases reflect issues lingering from previous generation product.

It is important to understand that, as with any water care program, the spa owner is ultimately responsible for ensuring that the water is properly maintained. We still believe that the ACE system makes that task simpler and easier than any other water care option available. However, the ACE system presents a new way of maintaining spa water. While the owners role is not complicated, if they do not understand how the system works, then they are likely to run into issues.

And by the way, my recommendation about using some CYA in the water isn't just from me:

My ACE concerns aren't so much about the reliability, but the lack of Chlorine stabilizer. If you don't add it (In the form of Sodium Dichlor, or just straight Cyanaric Acid), and keep the chlorine at 3-5ppm, it can be quite corrosive.

[NHSpa]

To be honest, I didn't purchase the ACE system with my tub because it was cool, and I didn't know it was just introduced that year (buyer beware, I know). It's my first hot tub and I am now a little older and wiser.

During one of my numerous discussions with Watkins Manufacturing I asked them to list all of the changes that have been made in the ACE system since my original purchase. I did this because they claimed there were virtually no failures of these systems nowadays. They stated the only change was in the standpipe, and since I had that fixed after the last cell failure they said I had done everything I could do and I was now on my own (which means replacing an $800 salt cell every 12 months for me). So, to the "we continue to stand behind our products" statement copied above, I'd have to say not so much. If this last cell failure was caused by "lingering issues", they certainly didn't indicate that during my most recent interchanges (three phone calls and 2 mails).

Either way I'm past that now and maintaining my chlorine levels manually. I'm leaving the ACE system in place for now as my dealer wants to charge me to remove it, and I don't know enough about the removal procedure to do it myself. I now to spend about 5 minutes a week adding chlorine and checking test strips, and I'll be shocked if I go through $800 of chlorine in the next 12 months.

As stated in my original post, I would not recommend the ACE system to someone purchasing or upgrading a hot tub, despite the success some people seem to be having with it. In my opinion it is a great concept, poorly executed.

[Loopcity]

 

....... I now to spend about 5 minutes a week adding chlorine and checking test strips, and I'll be shocked if I go through $800 of chlorine in the next 12 months

That's kinda been my point in some of these discussions. It's not hard to add chlorine. The ACE system is a chlorine generator. It costs quite a bit of money both initially and to replace failing cells. You can manually add chlorine for a fraction of the cost and it really isn't time consuming or difficult.

[Evilbeagle]

Hello all,

We just purchased a spa frog floater system....it's been in the spa for 4 days now, (both cylinders are at 6) and our strips indicate no chlorine/bromine, almost no ph, and alkalinity is low...basically the stops reminds almost colorless.....we just got the spa, and we're using the chemical pack given to us, but we could never keep the chlorine/bromine level up....so we heard good things about the frog, and decided to try....but nothing seemss to keep our water sanitized and balanced....are we doing something wrong?

Thanks!

[chem geek]

Add some baking soda to get your TA up and that should raise your pH as well (at least somewhat). You can add some chlorine bleach to see if it registers -- 2-1/2 fluid ounces of the new concentrated Clorox Regular unscented bleach (8.25%) in 350 gallons should register as 5 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) or around 11 ppm Total Bromine (or 10 ppm if you use a dual chlorine/bromine measuring tube). If you measure something after adding the bleach, then your Frog may not be putting out any oxidizer/disinfectant for some reason.