Ta Low And Ph High...please Help!

[Specks]

Thanks for the reply chem geek, much appreciated.

I have ordered the LaMotte test strips and the wife is picking up some Gentle Spa on the way home.

Edit: The guy at the pool supply store spoke with me on the phone. I explained my dilemma to him and the route that was suggested here on this site. He spoke about not worrying too much about CH since I have an acrylic spa but was adamant that I keep my TA between 80-120 and not worry about the PH so much because of the ozone and bromine generator.

He did mention the Gentle Spa was PH neutral so it wouldn't have a great deal of buffering action.

So much info to digest from multiple sources......I did add enough GS for 30 ppm and right now my TA is 80 with a ph of 8.0. I'll check my levels daily and perhaps lower my TA until the PH becomes stable, but I will admit he made me a little nervous about dropping the TA below 80.

[chem geek]

Actually, Gentle Spa nowadays seems to raise the pH upon initial addition so they aren't making it only from boric acid, but you can lower the pH after adding it. This guy doesn't understand that the 50 ppm borates provide additional pH buffering and that TA IS A SOURCE OF RISING PH. He is wrong about keeping it at 80-120 ppm. If your pH is rising regularly, you need to lower the TA. He is worried about not having enough pH buffering, but the borates are a pH buffer (CYA is as well).

You need to decide who you are going to listen to because you can't mix up this incompatible advice. Perhaps some others on this forum can chime in about the horrors (not!) of a low 50 ppm TA.

[brianthepoolman]

For anybody who is reading this thread, PH and alkalinity are related to each other except in certain conditions, one being the introduction of ozone and the other being salt generation. I would not have a pool or spa without worrying about the alkalinity, Does it really matter what the alkalinity is? Chlorine or bromine works better with a low PH, and when your PH gets high the sanitizer gets less effective. Now the alkalinity is something that if kept low and I mean below 50PPM your equipment is susceptible to erosion or just plain old out getting eaten up by the low alkalinity. Do whatever makes you feel more comfortable, pool guys are just like doctors, we all have our own opinion, find somebody that you trust and stick with them, somebody who actually sees your pool or spa more than likely is better off. Thanks

[Specks]

I believe you are right saying Gentle Spa raises PH initially. I started the pumps and air and got the TA down to ~60 and the PH was 7.8. I then added 4 oz of the GS to bring the ppm up to 50 from 30 and aerated again. PH was back up to 8 and TA was 70. So I added some more acid to get it back down.

Currently this is where I'm at:

TA - I'd say 50-60. The 5th drop turns the sample a semi-dark pink and the 6th red.

PH - 7.7

CH - 140

Bromine - 2.6

I did notice the meter reading for the BromiCharge (as they call it) crept up and they say it's from either too much salt, which I haven't added, or the TDS level has risen from hardness, alkalinity, organic compounds, etc. I wonder if the Gentle Spa caused this? It's still in the green though so I'm ok.

Either way, I'm hoping for the best here cause adding acid then coming back the next day and seeing the PH is again over 8 was driving me nuts. I'm finicky about certain things and it was getting on my nerves.

One other question....should this be a stable point with my water or will I be doing this every week or two?

Thanks to you both for the advice and we'll see how it goes.

[chem geek]

The Gentle Spa does raise the TDS, but depending on how the TDS is measured it won't be very much since it's mostly boric acid rather than conductive borate ion. The borates will stay in the water and you should not need to add them again until you change the water again.

See http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44417&hl='>this post for an example of how a low pH helps stabilize the pH because again TA is a SOURCE of rising pH. Something that many in the industry don't seem to understand.

[salachic]

So are you saying by using ozone keeping the ph in check is a losing battle? Because I have noticed I can lower it but like you said by the end of the day it's back around 8.0+.

Was there ever a response to this question? We also have ozonator and PH is always high. We have lowered the TA to around 60 and PH is still 8+ on most days.

Another question that I read here recently.... target for bromine levels.... we had been shooting for 4 - 6, but someone said that was too high. ??

[brianthepoolman]

for anybody who has a ozonator on there hot tub, I don"t care what you do and how much of whatever you put in, you will not be able to control the PH. thats just a fact!!!! If you guys are buying all these chemicals to solve this problem, then come buy them from me so I can retire!!!! LOL. no I really mean it. Of course low PH helps stabilize a Low PH and yes Higher alkalinity does promote a higher PH. But thats not the question. A lower alkalinity will eat your equipment up and when it does well good luck paying for the repairs. If you have an ozonator or a salt system your PH will be high all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chem geek]

What do you mean "a lower alkalinity will eat your equipment up"? There is no question that when using net acidic sources of chlorine such as Dichlor or other chemicals such as MPS, that these lower both TA and pH so when the TA gets low the pH can get too low and that can corrode metal, but what evidence do you have that a low TA when supplemented with borates for pH buffering and a pH that is not low causes any damage to equipment? We're not talking about plaster in pools that needs to be protected by saturating the water with calcium carbonate so can't have the TA be very low (in practical terms, since it would need the pH and CH to be very high to have the water balanced).

Also, you wrote earlier in this thread that "Chlorine or bromine works better with a low PH, and when your PH gets high the sanitizer gets less effective", but bromine is still very effective at higher pH and chlorine WITH CYA IN THE WATER is also effective. With no CYA in the water, then raising the pH from 7.5 to 8.0 cuts down the active chlorine level in half, but with CYA in the water it only drops by 15%.

[jmgodfr]

for anybody who has a ozonator on there hot tub, I don"t care what you do and how much of whatever you put in, you will not be able to control the PH. thats just a fact!!!! If you guys are buying all these chemicals to solve this problem, then come buy them from me so I can retire!!!! LOL. no I really mean it. Of course low PH helps stabilize a Low PH and yes Higher alkalinity does promote a higher PH. But thats not the question. A lower alkalinity will eat your equipment up and when it does well good luck paying for the repairs. If you have an ozonator or a salt system your PH will be high all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd disagree with this - I have an ozonator and salt water generator - they run for 5 and 6 hours per day respectively - I followed the recommendations on this site, lowered my TA to 50, added 50ppm Borates, PH is at 7.4. It takes about 5 days to get to 7.6, then I add a little dry acid 15-20 grams and PH goes back down to 7.4 and TA stays in the 50-55 range. This is an acrylic tub so the plaster and fiberglass rules don't apply. CH is only 60, CYA-25, FC-2, CC .3-.4. Tub is used daily 2-3 times per day for 30-40 minutes at a time - even will all that aeration PH still takes 5 days to get up to 7.6.

[Specks]

Thought I would chime in and give an update since I was so generously helped.

TA: 50-60 Same as before, 5th drop turns the sample pink and the 6th red.

PH: 8.0

Bromine: ~2.5

I figured I may could lower the TA some more and drop the ph a little lower but right now it's crystal clear and pleasurable to use. You can definitely tell a difference in the feel of the water once the Gentle Spa was added.

I've toyed around with the idea of lowering the TA to drop the PH down a little but as it now stands I'm no longer checking the levels every day and just enjoying the tub.

FYI......My filter cycle, which also charges the bromine and runs the ozone, runs 4 times a day 3 hours at a time.

[chem geek]

The higher pH of 8.0 is not a problem because with the low TA and not having a high CH there is no risk of scaling. Also, bromine is just as effective a sanitizer at a pH of 8.0 and even if you were using chlorine it would only be 15% less effective than at pH 7.5 assuming there is CYA in the water -- CYA acts as a chlorine buffer so it doesn't change in its amount as much when pH varies. So it sounds like your in good shape and no need to change things. Just make sure that 8.0 is truly 8.0 and not 8+ that could be 8.4 or something like that.

[waterbear]

for anybody who has a ozonator on there hot tub, I don"t care what you do and how much of whatever you put in, you will not be able to control the PH. thats just a fact!!!! If you guys are buying all these chemicals to solve this problem, then come buy them from me so I can retire!!!! LOL. no I really mean it. Of course low PH helps stabilize a Low PH and yes Higher alkalinity does promote a higher PH. But thats not the question. A lower alkalinity will eat your equipment up and when it does well good luck paying for the repairs. If you have an ozonator or a salt system your PH will be high all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WRONG on so many levels! You obviously do NOT understand what alkalinity is or how the bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer works in a spa or pool. I suppose next you will tell us you lover TA by slugging acid and lower pH by waliking acid even though that had been disproven many years ago (but is STILL taught in CPO classes!

[diggerdan4]

Hey fellas, I am brand new to this forum and also a new hot tub owner. I am having similar problems as the above tread and have since learned a lot about Bromide banks from these forums with all of you chemical wizards, so Thanks you all for that!!!! So I will list off what I started with and where I am now, but before I get started, let me say I knew nothing about flushing the tub before we did fill so the tub was never flushed and was on the Floor for about 3 months. So maybe you can also chirp in as to drain and start over or keep on going. I filled the Tub on Dec. 18, so about three weeks ago.

Caldera Cantabria

550 Gallons

Ozinator/recirc. pump run 24/7

So before filling this was the results from the water sample I took in from the outside hose spigot:

Tot Brom: .24

PH :7.6

TA: 45

CH: 27

Iron: .1

TDS: 50

After this I filled tub and added all chemicals that the dealer suggested, What they did not tell me is anything about a bromide bank which is a seperate that I will deal with on another tread. I took a sample in a about 1.5 weeks later and results were as follows:

Tot Brom: .36

PH : 8.1

TA: 46

CH: 182

Iron: .1

TDS: 400

I since have bought a kit if I remember correctly a Taylor 2105 and last night (Jan 8th) got as follows:

Tot Brom: .5

PH : 7.8

TA: 70

CH: 200

Iron: .1

TDS: unable to measure

So not sure what I should do at this point water is perfectly clear I guess I should elborate a little on the bromine. They gave me wrong chemicals to build a bromine bank (Spa Gruadr Brominating Concentrate which is 82.5% Sodium Di Chloro s-triazinetricone & 14.7% Sodium Bromide which I throw approx. 3 teaspoons in after each use with 3-5 users also shock once a week with MPS. I now have the correct stuff to build a bromide bank along with the inline Frog system built into the tub which has not done much good to this point because I have no bank built up but wanted to wait for comments on balancing before doing so. Sorry about the long post on my first one, but am looking for step by step directions on how to proceed or drain and start over? I should have all the chems I need now and can also by some Mule team 20 borax if needed.

Thanks for any help!