justintime Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 So after four frustrating years I am switching from BaquaSpa. I have tried to read a lot, but still have a few questions and was hoping someone could help me out so I don't screw this up. I am planning to switch to the Dichlor/bleach method. I have already done the decontamination suggested in the sticky to try to purge the residual Baqua goo from my pipes. My concern is that I am not the best at regularly adding chemicals which is why I went w/ BaquaSpa in the first place. Upon hearing I wanted to switch, Mmy spa company sold me on an ozonator saying that with it I would only need to add chlorine once a week or so. But we only use the tub (2 people) on average twice a week. In reading the forum it sounds like I might have to add chlorine more frequently since I have an ozonator. Also got sold a bottle of oxidizer which I'm not even sure I need. Do I? Is there any method that, given our use profile, will allow me to only add chemicals once a week (and/or after a soak)? Oh, and I understand you need to get the stabilizer (CYA) up. Is that contained in the dichlor or is that something separate? Thanks in advance from an admitted chemistry neophyte! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffinpickering Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Why not three step Bromine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 jeffinpickering has a good point. Three step bromine is a bit more forgiving in a spa that is ignore for up to a week at a time. Also, if you have an ozonator it will actually work with the bromine system by converting the bromide bank in the water into bromine sanitizer instead of working against chlorine by destroying it (but then again, most ozonators installed in tubs don't do much of anything except make bubbles because of the way they are implemented--there are some exceptions with some of the CD units). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Thanks for the replies. I have been trying to read about three step bromine in the interim and have a couple of questions. It seems like there are a lot of complaints about the bromine smell and even some complaints of throat irritation/coughing. One of the reasons we are switching from Baqua is the irritation/coughing that we would experience quite often. I definitely don't want to risk going back to that, nor do I want the spa to have a distinctive smell. On the other hand, it does seem like the bromine doesn't require as much maintenance as chlorine which is definitely what I am looking for. So I'm torn. I have read a little bit about mineral sticks like Spa Frog and Nature 2 that you place in your filter. If I am reading correctly, these would allow you to use lower levels of bromine, so I am thinking maybe that would reduce the risk of the smell/throat irritation. Is this true? Oh, and in case it matters I have a Sundance Optima that I believe is ~540 gallons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Thanks for the replies. I have been trying to read about three step bromine in the interim and have a couple of questions. It seems like there are a lot of complaints about the bromine smell and even some complaints of throat irritation/coughing. One of the reasons we are switching from Baqua is the irritation/coughing that we would experience quite often. I definitely don't want to risk going back to that, nor do I want the spa to have a distinctive smell. On the other hand, it does seem like the bromine doesn't require as much maintenance as chlorine which is definitely what I am looking for. So I'm torn. I have read a little bit about mineral sticks like Spa Frog and Nature 2 that you place in your filter. If I am reading correctly, these would allow you to use lower levels of bromine, so I am thinking maybe that would reduce the risk of the smell/throat irritation. Is this true? Oh, and in case it matters I have a Sundance Optima that I believe is ~540 gallons. Okay, so a little more reading answered some of the questions, I.e. it appears that the mineral sticks are useless. So mark that off the list. Chlorine seems a bit too "needy" for my situation. I.e. requires too much day to day attention. So mark that off the list. BaquaSpa causes me throat irritation/coughing. So mark that off the list. So the only thing left is the three step bromine approach. Is that correct or is there any other system/approach I am missing? I am fine going with bromine, as it sounds right for my situation, but I am now worried about smell/coughing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Silver/MPS is another EPA approved sanitizer. This is the 'mineral stick'. It works but is not one of my favorites. MPS is an irritant and you must maintain a residual in the if you want to keep it sanitized. Baqua causes irritation from the peroxide oxidizer used. Ozone can also cause irritation and coughing. It is a highly toxic gas. There is also mycobacterium avium complex from under sanitized water. This is also called 'hot tub lung' and can happen with any sanitizer system. It is just one of several water born illnesses that one can catch from an improperly sanitized tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arches2 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Thebromine is not bad at all. I have no issues with the bromine smell or coughing or any of that. Three step is really easy. With my floater i hardly every have to add anything except a bi-weekly shocking with bleach. My usage is about the same as yours. I do use borax which is a big help in keeping stable pH and my TA at 60-70. I use baking soda maybe once or twice a month when the TA gets under 50. If i have a large bather load spike (kids are in or such) i'll add 1/8 cup of bleach afterward. Very easy maintenance. i test with a taylor bromine kit and couldn't do without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 A continual thanks to all who are helping me out with this. So I think I will go ahead with the three-step bromine approach. So three last (okay probably not really last) questions: 1) So if I use bleach per the instructions, is that the "oxidizer"? I have a bottle of Brilliance Oxidizer I was sold - didn't know what it was for honestly. 2) Waterbears instruction say to use borax to raise pH, but arches2, do you use it as a pH buffer? I.e. should I add some borax even if my pH is fine? If so, how much (540 gallon spa)? 3) Any tips on how to keep down the potential for the bromine to smell? Thanks as always! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 1) bleach is your oxidizer. Your brilliance oxisizer is also an oxidizer, it is MPS. You can use that as well, it just costs more and is not a sanitizer in its own right light beach. It is also a known irritant. 2) borax is used in two distinct ways: a. to raise pH using twice the amount by weight as the amount of soda ash (pH increaser) needed. It does not raise TA as much as soda ash so it is perferable since high TA in spas tends to make the pH difficult to control because of the amount of outgassing of CO2 caused by the aeration fromthe jets. b. when borax is added (along with acid to maintain the pH) to a concentration of 50 ppm borate it helps stabilize pH by adding a secondary pH butter in addition to the carbonic acid/bicarbonate buffer system (which TA is a part of). The two uses of borax are done much differently! 3) The smell from bromine in the water is caused by bromamines in much the same way that the smell from chlorine in the water comes from chloramines. These form when the halogen sanitizer reacts with nitrogen containing compounds such as sweat, urine, and proteins. Shocking on a regular basis will help. Many people do not shock bromine tubs as often as chlorine tubs since bromamines are effective at sanitizing while chloramines, for the most part, are not. Thereforme most bromine tubs have a buildup of bromamines, which have a distinct smell. However, you have to remember that both chlorine and bromine will react with proteins in the skin and form bromamines and chloramines so you might notice an odor on your skin when you come out even if the water has no or little combined halogen. You can test this for yourself by pouring a bit of laundry bleach in your hand and then rinsing it off. The chloramine smell (strong 'chlorne like' smell) lingers for a while. It is the nature of the beast, so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Thanks Waterbear. I'll see if I can return the oxidizer to the store then. It also sounds like if I shock a little more often than even I need to that might help mitigate the formation of bromamines and therefore the smell. Is that correct? I think I am just about ready to go. You said the "two uses of borax are done much differently!" Can you help me with what I need to do to use it as a pH buffer instead of just using it to raise pH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Once you get going with three step bromine and have everything balanced we can help but since bromine has a wider effective pH range than chorine many find adding borate is not needed. If you have problems keeping the pH below 8.0 by just adjusting the TA then we can discuss how to add the borates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Once you get going with three step bromine and have everything balanced we can help but since bromine has a wider effective pH range than chorine many find adding borate is not needed. If you have problems keeping the pH below 8.0 by just adjusting the TA then we can discuss how to add the borates. Got it. Thanks again to everyone. I'll let you know how it goes. I need to wait to get my test kit though before I fill the tub again and embark on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 remember to repalce your filters since they will be contaminaged with Bauqagoo (a technical term ). Cleaning is not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 remember to repalce your filters since they will be contaminaged with Bauqagoo (a technical term ). Cleaning is not enough. Yes, definitely! I have my two new filters ready to go. My test kit came today (two days from Amato Industries!). Now I just need to go get my chemicals this weekend and I should be all set to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Good luck, take a deep breath, and go for it! If you run into any problems we are here to help. One bit of advice, don't overthink things and don't make them harder than they are (both common beginner mistakes). If you follow my tutorial step by step you should have no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 remember to replace your filters since they will be contaminated with Baquagoo (a technical term ). Cleaning is not enough. I was wondering about that. You saved me a question. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Okay, so I have my Taylor kit and am testing the water. A question on pH. This was the test I had the hardest time reading the test strips on. Now with the Taylor I'm not sure it's any easier telling the difference in the gradation of red. I first looked down into the tube and it looked pretty red. Then I looked at it from the front (i.e. like you're supposed to) and it looked like the pH was ~8.0. Then I realized I was looking at it with the dark brown spa steps behind the tube. So then I held it up to the sunlight and when I did that it looked to me like it the pH was ~7.6. So are you supposed to hold it up to the light when you do the reading? The color difference between 7.6 and 7.8 sure seems minimal. Maybe I just need more practice reading these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I believe it says to use natural sunlight or a light in the same degree range. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 I believe it says to use natural sunlight or a light in the same degree range. Ian Got it. Thanks. So bear with me here ... just want to ensure I am doing everything right. On step 3 (shock) of Waterbear's tuorial, I am now an hour in on the circulation following shocking with the bleach and trying to get bromine below 10ppm. Is this normal? Am I going to need to circulate for an hour+ every week after shocking or is it just longer on initial start-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arches2 Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 yes, it can take a little while to reduce the bromine level after shocking. You should do it during the day when the sun is out as that will help lower it as well. I usually run it for 2 cycles (40 minutes) then cover it back up if i don't plan on using it. I take the floater out if it's still high and check it the next day. it's usally ok by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 yes, it can take a little while to reduce the bromine level after shocking. You should do it during the day when the sun is out as that will help lower it as well. I usually run it for 2 cycles (40 minutes) then cover it back up if i don't plan on using it. I take the floater out if it's still high and check it the next day. it's usally ok by then. Thanks for the reply. I was doing this in the early evening, so the sun wasn't much help in burning off the excess. Taking the floater out for the night is a good recommendation that I will use next time. That brings up one other question I had. Does it matter how many bromine tabs you put in the floater? My tendency would be to err on the side of more vs. less (i.e. fill it all the way up) to give me some leeway in case I somehow forget to fill it. Is this okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Fill the floater with tabs The output is regulated by the size of the open gap. Once you find the optimum setting for your tub, set the locking ring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justintime Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Great. Thanks Spanky. Methinks I was sold a cheap floater as I don't recall seing a locking ring. Just a twist to open it up to one or two slots per side. I could be wrong though, so will check tonight when I get home. Also, are there any negative effects to the spa itself from high bromine levels? I ask b/c I think I was still around 10ppm when I closed it up on Sunday, and I put the floater in it, but I also have an ozonator. For various reasons I didn't get back out Monday to check levels, and yesterday it poured all night, so today will be the first day I will be able to adjust it, and I'm betting its going to be high. Just wasn't sure if this would cause any damage to anything to maintain higher than normal bromine levels for an extended period of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 10ppm is certainly a bit high. Normal levels would be 3-5ppm (depending on bather usage) Prolonged high sanitizer levels are a factor in reducing spa cover life. Sunlight is very effective in lowering Bromine levels, keep the cover off for a couple of hours in the sun and the level will drop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 This is the recommended Floater The lock ring is threaded onto the main tube just above the adjustable screen (Lower portion) When tightened together the screen opening is locked in position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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