Is There A Reasonable Way To Test For White Water Mold?

[chem geek]

The pH will probably not drift downward when using only bleach. If it does, then Borax is better to use than soda ash unless you truly find that the pH always goes down. In that case, then maybe you do need a somewhat higher TA level (which soda ash will do), but that would be strange. Dichlor is net acidic, but if you are using only bleach then the pH really shouldn't be dropping. I don't think the low pH issue has anything to do with the CYA level.

Next time you decontaminate, use Spa System Flush, not just super-chlorination. It technically is more for biofilms (bacteria), but it's surfactant wetting action might help dislodge any white water mold on the piping as well, giving chlorine a better chance to kill it during superchlorination.

(waterbear, there's that guy on The PoolForum with a product he claims handles white water mold so maybe we should get him together with jfrisky to try it out -- especially if he gives out a free sample :-)

[jfrisky]

Thanks Chem Geek. I'll post a follow-up re the Ph and TA issue. But... what mysterious guy has a product for WWM and is keeping it a secret?? I AM definitely interested, as long as it doesn't kill people too ;-)...

Also - when I did the decons (3 wks ago) I did do a 24 hour Spa System Flush, followed by a super-chlorination (bleach). It was prior to having the taylor kit, but since receiving it, I've done some comparison tests, comparing Taylor numbers with prior drop test kit. (told you I'm a retired programmer ;-)... and yes my schooling was also with punch cards!) So using my equivalent Taylor numbers... I actually did 2 decons: first did a 24 hour Spa System Flush (lots of yellow grime) followed by super-chlor - mold returned, I Spa Flushed again, (almost no yellow grime) drained it and did a 2nd decon and physically scooped out remaining pieces of mold and cleaning the filter every 20 minutes - all day for 2 days. Grueling. When all seemed clear, I let FC fall settle to what old test kit showed as 5, but was really 10ppm, simultaneously heating it up to 100 over a 3-4 day period. Mold/biofilm returned the following day when FC fell to 1 or 2ppm, after 6 bather/hours use. Again - #s are converted to Taylor #s based on my recent comparison tests. Taylor roughly doubled the cheap kit numbers. So... NO ONE should ever hesitate investing in a Taylor test kit. I've also tried comparing test strip results with Taylor, and they're totally inconsistent and worthless.

So back to the mold... it survived and I'm feeling it may be necessary to vac the stuff out of pipes after the flush. The stuff is really hearty. I read that it has adapted to absorb chlorine. During the ordeal, I left a scrub sponge in a bowl of filter cleaner solution overnight and the next morning the mold had grown to cover the entire liquid cleaner surface and sponge. Scary. So the 2nd decon day, I added a step of soaking the filter in a bucket of white vinegar before cleaner and spraying it off. I didn't see any mold survive the vinegar bucket, but there must have been some remaining in the spa pipes and jets.

This is why I'm feeling it may be necessary to vac out the pipes, as someone in forum claimed successfully removed mold. Until next decon, I'm fine with keeping my FC between 4-6 as waterbear suggested. And... I'd love to know about this secret mysterious mold-killing product. Please let me know on this :-). and a big thanks. In the meantime - I'll keep FC at 4-6 and work on the Ph/Alk situation.

[waterbear]

(told you I'm a retired programmer ;-)... and yes my schooling was also with punch cards!)

First language learned in college was Fortran IV level G here! Don't talk to me about punch cards!

[jfrisky]

(told you I'm a retired programmer ;-)... and yes my schooling was also with punch cards!)

First language learned in college was Fortran IV level G here! Don't talk to me about punch cards!

oh, I thought it was chem geek... you were a programmer? I learned on IBM 360... but went into online banking systems so did cobol and assembly language on a Sperry/Univac... for 20 yrs. Last mainframe work was Y2K, then switched to web/multimedia design/programming.

Ummm, so was that a joke about someone having a 'cure' for WWM? FC was 6 last night and I figured it'd be 4 when I woke up, but overnight FC dropped to 2, with CC 1.5, and WWM fighting its way back. Ph seems solidly about 7.25 (a tinge pinker than 7.2) So I bleached it... first not enough - FC to 7.5 and CC went up to 2. I also added some enzyme and clear, hoping it'd maybe break it down a bit in the pipes... maybe yes, maybe no, but small clumps of mold started emerging. I added more bleach since CC was 2, and was scooping it out while waiting to test it again. FC went to 17 but CC is still 1.5.... , but after awhile at 17, water cleared up... for now.

So... my understanding is - to get CC to zero, I really need to nuke it? Obviously 17 isn't high enough. More SpaFlush arrived today, so guess I need to buy a wet vac, then flush, vac out the pipes, maybe turn the whole thing upside down... (crazy? maybe) and then a super-decon at a ridiculous level... and keep it cold (80?) to avoid getting sick from inhaling it.

So you need to tell me if this WWM product was a joke (my guess is yes)...

[waterbear]

Learned on a system 360 also.

The WWM product is not a joke but it is actually a product (or I should say another product) to get rid of biofilms and WWM is not technically a biofilm (pink slime is). I don't really have any way to get in tough with the guy but he admin at Pool Forum did suggest to him to register here but he has not done so.

Biofilms have become the NEW phosphates since the price of the raw material for phosphate removers (lanthanum salts) has gone through the roof so they are not as profitable now. When phosphate removers first came out the rare earth lanthaum salts were dirt cheap (no pun inteneded).

[jfrisky]

You just clarified something - that WWM is not technically a biofilm, so if I'm understanding correctly, WWM uses biofilm as a protection -it thrives best in an environment with biofilm. I think that's probably fairly accurate. I've read a number of conflicting explanations online... some equate them as the same. What I'm not clear about is - which is capable of absorbing oxidizing sanitizers (chloring/bromine) - biofilm or WWM? This seems important to know. A couple days after I first spotted the WWM (a month ago), I went online.. read a bunch... of course, most visible were products to buy. I ordered AquaFinesse because it claimed to remove biofilm. Is this the product? Almost immediately afterward and before receiving it, I found this forum, and began my decon attempts. So I have AF, and added it right after my decons... but signs of WWM reappeared, as I've described before, when FC dropped to 2 or 3. I'm mentioning this because from my brief experience, I don't think this particular product is strong enough if WWM already exists... just in case this is the product you're talking about.

When a system flush is done, I'm guessing biofilm is easier to remove from pipes than WWM. Is this correct? Or is biofilm the difficult thing to remove, and WWM resides within it and is protected by it? If we knew more specifics about it, seems it'd be much easier to deal with. In any event, it seems it must be totally removed from the pipes... 100%, or it'll revive and start multiplying again. What I do know is - I did System Flush twice, water was of course left in the pipes each time but was followed by a decon, and each time the mold returned. I think all water must be vacuumed out. The other thing working against us is the spa temp. After the 2nd decon, all looked great at 80 degrees, still ok at 90. It was after I raised it to 100. Of course this is a sample of one with no control group.

Please post whatever else you know about WWM. I'm trying to prepare myself for the next decon ordeal and make it work.

[waterbear]

White water mold is a fungus. Pink slime is a bacterial biofilm. White water mold is resistant to halogen sanitizers (there are a few water nastys that are too, such as crypto spores which is why it is important not to let anyone soak that has diarrhea) but does succumb to sunlight and very high sanitizer levels so it tends to start in dark areas like pipes and filters, particularly if the sanitizer level has dropped too low for a length of time. .Once it starts it is difficult to get rid of (similar to mildew, another fungus--the two are not that different in many ways). The trick is to make sure you kill all of it or it will come back. WWM does not normally occur in a PROPERLY MAINTAINED chlorine or bromine spa. Not sure about silver/MPS but biguanide/peroxide systems do not prevent it from occurirng and is one of the main reasons people stop using thiese sanitizer systems.

As far as the new product for biofilms it is not aquafinesse or the sphagnum moss bags being sold to combat biofilm in pools and spas(really? REALLY?!?). Not sure exactly what it is but this guy is gung how about it. Personally, if you don't let biofilms form they are not a problem and if you maintain your water properly they don't get a chance to form.

However, as I said before WWM is not a biofilm problem, it's more of "there's a fungus amoung us" problem. When trying to fight it, think mildew and you will be on the right track, high chlorine levels, as much sunlight as possible, and a lot of scrubbing of surfaces that are reachable. Enzyme purges might help break down what is in the plumbing followed by sterilization with very high FC levels.

[jfrisky]

Thanks so much. That explains a lot. I'm cleaning the filter every few days and spray it out thoroughly - it basically looks good... and the filter compartment looks totally clean. And since my initial big mistake of trying an alternative enzyme system for the first 4 days I had this spa - during which mold pre-existing in the air jets was welcome to multiply (coincidentally, it did smell like mildew), I'm now maintaining it well, thanks to this forum. Yes I'm still kicking myself for trying something based on some philosophical idea rather than what we know works, based on scientific knowledge.

So... it appears that mold is still in some hidden crevice underneath there, and has escaped getting flushed out.

So thanks for all your help.

Oh - for Chem Geek - you were right - now that I'm on bleach only - and aerated most of today, the Ph rose to 7.5.

ok- wish me luck... I'll make time to do it next week and report back. thanks again!

PS: I think one of you should create a post specifically about proper test kits... put it up there with the other basic ones. I did more comparisons today - Taylor against "Pool Time 6-way test strips" and "Basic 5 Test Kit by Poolmaster" (drop test kit sold at Home Depot), and they not only mislabel Total C as Combined C, so the numbers make no sense... but - and here's the worst part: the FC results are totally unreliable. On one test, Poolmaster drop kit (about $5) measured FC to be about 4, and on Taylor k-2006 the FC was 12.5 !! That's a HUGE discrepancy! Another day, FC of 5 on Poolmaster kit came in as 11.5 via Taylor. The Ph levels are much closer... usually about .2 - .5 difference between kits. But the chlorine inaccuracy could be dangerous. This would be a great main topic for new members to see right off.

thanks again - judy

[chem geek]

Just to clarify, my thought about the Spa System Flush followed by super-chlorination was not about biofilms, per se, but rather what it does in terms of being a surfactant. The idea is to try and dislodge the white water mold from the piping so that it can be more readily killed by high chlorine levels surrounding it. That may not work, but it was just a thought I had. The Spa System Flush doesn't kill bacteria in biofilms directly -- it is not a pesticide.

In terms of difficulty of killing and hanging out in shady areas, white water mold has that in common with yellow/mustard algae. The primary treatments are similar in terms of making sure you kill it all everywhere because otherwise it will likely come back again.

[jfrisky]

Thanks. I did more searching online and found that other poolforum with more info on WWM. Something in there also mentioned adding borax saying it made it more difficult for the mold to survive. So I let temp go down to mid-80s, and about an hour ago added a bit more borax, removed the filter (have a new one waiting) added SeaKlear Spa SystemFlush, and ran for 1/2 hour and then again just now.

Sitting here pondering, I realized why WWM came back this week. My old cheap test kit was showing chlorine to be roughly 1/2 the real level. So when I thought I was keeping it between 3-5ppm, it was ACTUALLY anywhere between 8-15ppm and that was enough to keep the mold at a low profile... just sort of waiting around for better conditions. A post on this at poolforum was really interesting. So anyway, once the Taylor kit arrived, I reset chlorine to REALLY be 4-6ppm - essentially about 1/2 what I'd been keeping it at - and I just realized that this is why the mold suddenly re-emerged. I also realized the reason my initial high level decon didn't work is because I did it with dichlor and the CYA was pretty high - so the stabilized chlorine wasn't that effective. Is my thinking on the right track? I think I'm getting a grasp of this.

So I can run the jets some more later on, then let the flush sit overnight... current #s:

Temp 81

CYA 30

FC 9

CC 1

Boron (Borax) 80ppm

Ph 7.7

TA ~150

CH ~180

tomorrow morning I'll drain, scrub surfaces, wet vac out whatever possible in pipes. Maybe I'll even turn spa on its side if I can. Then I'll install new filter, refill and zap it with bleach. I'll make sure Ph is about 7.2 but TA is 150 so I don't think I should take the time to lower it... it'd take at least a day. I'm planning to decon it at about 80 degrees, run jets for 1h then drain into sewer line. I have a handy cleanout in front yard.

Does this all sound right? I'll await for answer from one of you. You guys are absolutely great.

[chem geek]

Well, I wouldn't call us great until your problem is solved :-)

Your plan sounds good. The ppm to amount of bleach is a linear calculation. But I calculate that its 54 ounces of 6% bleach to get to 75 ppm in a 350 gallon spa. Remember that you won't circulate this for more than a few hours. I'm not so sure you want the new filter installed when you're doing this. It won't have any white water mold and there's no point to superchlorinating it which will just wear it down a little faster. Note that though the chlorine level sounds really high, the high pH makes it not as strong as you'd think, though it is still pretty strong.

[jfrisky]

ok...! I did a System Flush with SeaKlear, turned jets on and off a lot, also scooped out all mold that was floating on the surface. It was mostly flakes... but no big mucousy globs like the time before. I kept running the jets, stopping them and scooping whatever mold surfaced until it was pretty much gone and I was only seeing normal looking bubbles from the flush. It took some hours... Then I let it sit overnight. After draining this morning, I wet vacuumed all possible remaining water out of the pipes until I stopped hearing gurgling sounds. Ha! I was crazy if I thought I'd be able to turn the empty spa over... but the water I vacuumed out of the pipes actually looked pretty clean. I brought all utensils used for the spa in the kitchen sink for a wash before accidentally using them, and scrubbed the spa cover.

Then I filled again, lowered the pH to 7.2 and did a decon at 76 degrees. I did that for about an hour and then drained it into my sewer cleanout. I did leave that final bit of decon water in the bottom of the tub to avoid having to deal with draining it. So when I filled with clean water, the FCC tested at 2.5 just from the bleach in that bit of remaining decon water in the bottom... not much because it's a small spa with a small floor space.

Initial numbers of tap water filled spa:

CH 150

TA 110

pH 7.7

In an attempt to lower TA to 80, I added liquid Sodium Bisulfate (SeaKlear pH down) aerating while waiting to remeasure the pH. The TA lowered to 100, but pH went up above 8! ...as if the aeration was working faster than the acid. Weird. So I tested numerous times with 3 different kits... they all tested about the same, above 8, so I added more acid, I waited an hour - still no change. So I decided to go ahead and add dichlor (since it's acidic) to total FC of 8, eventually I added enough acid to lower pH to 7.7. At this point it was dark outside with mosquitos biting me... so I called it a day. At least pH is within safe territory, and tomorrow I'll try lowering TA some more (acid/aeration method). But basically all looks good and spa is heating up overnight.

After all I've tried in recent weeks, I think I'm committed to keeping the water really simple. Dichlor, bleach, acid. Maybe gradually add some borax. I just want to see what the water is like with just the basics for sanitation and balance. No other products. This way, I think it'll make it easier to detect when something is off.

So thanks for the help and encouragement. I'll report back on how things look in a day or so. I'm exhausted... but thanks so much! Hopefully this worked. I think so.

[jfrisky]

Update: I've been in the process of balancing the water... pH kept drifting up above 8. CH is 150. Today I lowered TA to 80 but pH still went up to 8+ after 1/2 hr aeration, and it did that at 70 TA also. I didn't want to leave the pH that high, so I think my only choice was more acid, right? So I opened some new dry Sodium bisulfate ~95% and added 1T, bringing pH to 7.0 and TA to 60... seems a bit too low..? Measured pH after 15 min aeraation and it was 7.4, measured again after another 15 min, and it was 7.8. I decided to stop aerating right there.

Then I went back to the forum and read more about ph drift, and one of you - I think Nitro - recommended Gentle Spa, saying it helps stabilize pH... if I remember his explanation - it adds a borate w/o raising pH? Anyway, I wasn't going to buy "one more product", but I ordered it online. I'm not sure if the pH is finished drifting upward, but instead of lowering TA anymore, I'm going to avoid aerating till I receive Gentle Spa next week.

Other than that, the water looks crystal clear... oh - almost forgot. Chlor Demand = .37 and CC=0. After 1.5 hours use, only used 2ppm and raised CC barely a hair... less than .5 So other than the pH/TA issue, all's looking good. I'm goin' in.

[chem geek]

Yes, you may need to lower the TA quite a bit perhaps to 50 ppm, but that's also what the 50 ppm Borates are for -- to provide additional pH buffering without increasing the pH the water that TA (the carbonate buffer) does. So I think what you did getting it to 60 is OK for now. As for Proteam Gentle Spa, it used to be boric acid and be close to pH neutral, but recent users reported it making the pH rise substantially as if it were borax. So be careful using it -- see which way the pH goes and adjust accordingly. There are other sources for boric acid, but let us know how it goes with Gentle Spa.

So it looks like perhaps this time you've nipped the white water mold in the bud. Time will tell, but I've got my fingers crossed for you.

[jfrisky]

Thank you for staying on this with me. It kept me on track - so I didn't get impulsive due to frustration and try a bunch of crazy stuff.

Thanks so much - I'll report back on Gentle Spa.

[waterbear]

Just want to let you know that I am not abandoning you but I won't be around for the next week or two so I will leave you in chem geek's capable hands!

[jfrisky]

Hi - it's been a week since the decon... actually TWO decons. I have to relate this because it was so horrible it was funny: I did the decon, got everything balanced, thanked you (Chem Geek & Waterbear), and went out to use the spa. As I got in, I turned around to set something down, and my head hit a plant that was hanging 18" outside the spa... causing it to swing... right OFF it's hook and dump into the new spa water upside down! I got it out pretty quickly, but still.. dirt floating everywhere...so awful I scooped out what I could, poured in half bottle of SwirlAway, flushed for awhile, then poured a bunch of bleach in and drained it. I figured for this purpose it was fine to combine the flush and bleach. Then I washed everything down AGAIN, vacuumed the pipes again, and filled. Water looked like I'd gotten all dirt out - totally clear. I balanced the water and it was heating up again by 9pm. Ayeeee!

So... for the last week: the water looked good for 3-4 days. Unfortunately I ran out of the Taylor chlorine reagent right after the decon so while waiting for more I had to use the cheap kit that showed FC to be 1/3 to 1/2 of the actual level... so I couldn't do chlorine demand tests. I maintained what I believe to be 4-7+ FC, but toward the end of the week I started seeing the same swirling tiny bubbles that look more like dust when the water circulated without air jets. No flakes, but this weird suspicious "dust" that would eventually cover the entire surface of the water in swirly marble-like patterns when I turned the jets off. But it didn't happen at all with the air jets on, and no actual flakes.

So tonight I shocked it with a double dose of MPS and 10 FC bleach (it reads 12 but I think that's the MPS raising it), and circulated again w/o air jets, and the shock seemed to remove it completely... for now. I think this is how this forum thread actually started - with someone describing this same thing, wondering if it's mold. To be honest, I'm not sure... it just doesn't look right.

NEXT MORNING: pH went nutz overnight - had been stable at 7.6 but was 7.0 this morning. I just raised it to 7.6 with borax (it had been at 20ppm, waiting on GentleSpa to arrive). Sudden drop in pH is what happened before last decon. Altho - FC only dropped from 12 to 9 overnight (however, #s questionable due to MPS).

Here are 2 videos I just posted to youtube:

What you see in 1st video mainly occurs when circulating w/o air. It 'appears' as dusty swirling surface... clustering together in swirls, then disintegrates into cloudiness. I see no flakes - yet. Seems like very tiny bubbles.

When I turn off circulation - is what you see in 2nd video. This does not occur when aerating with air jets, and also, turning on air makes it disappear.

This is just after circulating w/o air. After taking this video I added a bit of clarifier and it seemed to minimize it for time being.

Current #s: FC 8, CYA 30, pH 7.4, TA 90, Bor 50, CH 140.

[chem geek]

That's not white water mold. The mold looks like tissue paper and breaks apart easily. What you are seeing is foaming from some soap-like chemicals. It will eventually dissipate, faster if you shock with chlorine, and you can scoop some of it out or use a scum ball (or enzyme product, but that's usually more expensive). If you overdosed with the clarifier, that can lead to cloudy water and sometimes foaming.

[jfrisky]

Wow... thank you so much. It's a relief. In the early incidents, it did begin with definite flakes - not calcium, but tissue paper-like flakes that fell apart when touched. I was getting paranoid that what I was seeing just recently was very early symptoms of the mold. Good to know.

I don't think I OD'd with the clarifier. I have SpaPerfect (the enzyme, not the clarifier). Is that what you're talking about? I did add that yesterday. I haven't used any soap-like chemicals - this surface thing gradually built up using dichlor/bleach, and was initially accompanied with a seeming rise in chlorine demand. Oh well... as long as it isn't spa mold. Should I remove the video links or are they ok? I put them up because I figured it'd clarify what was happening and may be what TubOGuts was seeing as well.

Again - thank you for your help. I'm relieved :-).

[chem geek]

It's good to have video links. They are very clear. You can leave them for others to see. White water mold is as you describe what you had earlier -- tissue-like flakes that fall apart when you touch them. Calcium carbonate flakes are hard and if you add acid to them they fizz of carbon dioxide.

Also, when waterbear gets back, I think we need to thoroughly review your spa situation because something is obviously still not right.