jfrisky

Thanks, both of you, for your suggestions. I think I'll try both plywood underneath the spa on next refill, and buy some of the soundproofing material to put inside where the motor is. Yes - I'll be careful to leave enough air space for the motor. Looking inside, I can see there's less insulation on one side of the motor (which interestingly is the noisy side) - and there's room to add a layer of soundproof matting and still have plenty of air space. I have a service guy coming while it's still under warranty, so I'll ask him how much air space to leave. Thank you so much.

is there a brand you recommend that dissolves more slowly?

I'm new here but just went thru getting bleach/dichlor going. Visit the spa chemistry section of this forum and read the pinned post on Nitro's Spa Maintenance, and the one Bleach/Dichlor. As per my experience, it only took about a week to build up stabilizer from dichlor, then I switched to bleach only. The spa chemistry sub-forum has a wealth of amazing info on all of this.

I have a plug-n-play 190 gallon spa. I suppose that qualifies as portable, right? It's well insulated for temp, but not sound, and 2 neighbors have already complained... maybe because I located the spa just behind my house, so it ends up being closer to neighbors' windows as well. They're complaining the spa pump wakes them at night. From what I've figured out, the bass frequency isn't even really audible close up, but is quite audible about 30 ft away. So to keep the peace I've put it on a spa timer to turn off at night, and I'm doing some online research on soundproofing... because I'd like to not be worrying about this. In my case, the spa is sitting on a reinforced section of a deck that is only about a foot above ground. Most likely the deck is also carrying the sound, but I've read about cases where spas installed on cement slabs also create a noise problem for neighbors, and it seems to be the same problem: the pump noise is actualy louder far away than close up. I know bass sound waves are in the general range of about 30 feet long, depending on the exact frequency of course. When I went to my neighbor's house to hear the noise he was describing, it was the low bass frequency that was traveling that distance, and was much louder than anything I could hear standing right next to the spa. I found this site: http://www.soundproo...undproofing.asp and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with Soundproofing America's America Mat or any other soundproofing products? It seems you can line a pump enclosure with it... or in my case, maybe I could set a sheet of it between the spa and deck surface. or... maybe wrap the outside walls of the spa with it - then maybe cover the soundproofing sheeting with wood slats...? Has anyone heard of this stuff or any other soundproofing that works?

Thanks for all this info, both of you. Those are really good ideas... the 2 floaters, and aeration for pH. I've learned so much from this forum. Yes, as much as I like the idea of the simplicity of dichlor/bleach, I'm immediately finding it more complicated to continually be mentally calculating how much bleach to add for basic maintenance plus use hours. It does seem it'd be much easier to have the basic levels maintained by a floater and only need to be adding for hours used. Then while on vacation - the 2 floaters is a great idea. Also - if someone is scheduled to come check the place while you're away (or come in to care for pets, which I need) it's easier to ask them to add bromine tabs to a floater weekly than be measuring liquid bleach every day or so. This definitely seems manageable. I have a very basic, small spa where circulation is triggered by the temp, unfortunately. But I can put it on a timer. When the spa gets kicked on, it'll have a default temp of 100. So I'm thinking... if I let the temp fall to 75-80 before I leave, then use a spa timer to limit circulation to 2 hrs per day - with jets open for aeration, the temp would only go up 4 degrees each cycle, and then fall back down overnight. (it's well insulated and only seems to fall 3-4 degrees overnight if I turn it off) But is 2hrs/day with aeration enough circulation?

Wow... thank you so much. It's a relief. In the early incidents, it did begin with definite flakes - not calcium, but tissue paper-like flakes that fell apart when touched. I was getting paranoid that what I was seeing just recently was very early symptoms of the mold. Good to know. I don't think I OD'd with the clarifier. I have SpaPerfect (the enzyme, not the clarifier). Is that what you're talking about? I did add that yesterday. I haven't used any soap-like chemicals - this surface thing gradually built up using dichlor/bleach, and was initially accompanied with a seeming rise in chlorine demand. Oh well... as long as it isn't spa mold. Should I remove the video links or are they ok? I put them up because I figured it'd clarify what was happening and may be what TubOGuts was seeing as well. Again - thank you for your help. I'm relieved :-).

I've been using Dichlor/bleach but am in a quandary about how to maintain sanitation levels during vacations that could be over a week or two. After having dealt with white mold, I can't afford to let sanitation levels fall, even for a short time. For a minute I did some reading about Nature2/MPS for vacation purposes, but it doesn't seem to solve the problem, as it only works with regular applications of MPS - and Chem Geek has stated MPS is gone within about 24 hours. So that's not a vacation solution. My spa instructions specifically state not to use Trichlor to maintain warranty. So it seems a bromine floater would be the solution. I'm currently maintaining a sanitation level of 3-6+ FC with bleach and shocking with MPS (I still get uncertain but suspicious mold-like symptoms, and heavy MPS shocking seems to clear symptoms - but that's in another post). Here are my numbers (Taylor k-2006): am maintaining FC 3-6ppm. other #s are CYA=30, pH~7.5, TA=90, Bor=50, CH=140. Can't currently get good CC or CD readings due to MPS use - don't have that MPS interference reagent. I've read Waterbear's Bromine for Beginners. I plan to buy that recommended floater & bromine tabs. My questions are: 1. Will a bromine floater alone keep the spa sanitized during non-use 1-3 week vacations? 2. If I'm ok with converting to bromine gradually, can I skip buying the Sodium Bromide? and generally how long will it take for the bromine to take over the sanitation role? 3. What type of chlorine is "included" in Bromine tablets? Are there more than one type of bromine tabs and what should I be looking for? Can I avoid trichlor? 4. Can you briefly explain the interaction between Chlorine and Bromine? Clorine seems to be necessary as well, after each use, and you mention chlorine activating bromide reserve... so are we maintaining both chlorine and bromine levels, or will this be a single FC reading? This part is a bit confusing - and I want to understand what I'm actually doing. 5. I'd prefer continuing to shock with MPS pretty heavily. It seems to work better at oxidizing whatever weird 'surface water' symptoms still plague my spa. Will this be ok and how does MPS interact with bromine? OR - Will it work to switch it around and add MPS after each use and shock weekly with bleach? 6. Should I change any of my numbers above for a bromine spa? 7. Lastly, what will I need to add to my K-2006 kit?

Hi - it's been a week since the decon... actually TWO decons. I have to relate this because it was so horrible it was funny: I did the decon, got everything balanced, thanked you (Chem Geek & Waterbear), and went out to use the spa. As I got in, I turned around to set something down, and my head hit a plant that was hanging 18" outside the spa... causing it to swing... right OFF it's hook and dump into the new spa water upside down! I got it out pretty quickly, but still.. dirt floating everywhere...so awful I scooped out what I could, poured in half bottle of SwirlAway, flushed for awhile, then poured a bunch of bleach in and drained it. I figured for this purpose it was fine to combine the flush and bleach. Then I washed everything down AGAIN, vacuumed the pipes again, and filled. Water looked like I'd gotten all dirt out - totally clear. I balanced the water and it was heating up again by 9pm. Ayeeee! So... for the last week: the water looked good for 3-4 days. Unfortunately I ran out of the Taylor chlorine reagent right after the decon so while waiting for more I had to use the cheap kit that showed FC to be 1/3 to 1/2 of the actual level... so I couldn't do chlorine demand tests. I maintained what I believe to be 4-7+ FC, but toward the end of the week I started seeing the same swirling tiny bubbles that look more like dust when the water circulated without air jets. No flakes, but this weird suspicious "dust" that would eventually cover the entire surface of the water in swirly marble-like patterns when I turned the jets off. But it didn't happen at all with the air jets on, and no actual flakes. So tonight I shocked it with a double dose of MPS and 10 FC bleach (it reads 12 but I think that's the MPS raising it), and circulated again w/o air jets, and the shock seemed to remove it completely... for now. I think this is how this forum thread actually started - with someone describing this same thing, wondering if it's mold. To be honest, I'm not sure... it just doesn't look right. NEXT MORNING: pH went nutz overnight - had been stable at 7.6 but was 7.0 this morning. I just raised it to 7.6 with borax (it had been at 20ppm, waiting on GentleSpa to arrive). Sudden drop in pH is what happened before last decon. Altho - FC only dropped from 12 to 9 overnight (however, #s questionable due to MPS). Here are 2 videos I just posted to youtube: What you see in 1st video mainly occurs when circulating w/o air. It 'appears' as dusty swirling surface... clustering together in swirls, then disintegrates into cloudiness. I see no flakes - yet. Seems like very tiny bubbles. When I turn off circulation - is what you see in 2nd video. This does not occur when aerating with air jets, and also, turning on air makes it disappear. This is just after circulating w/o air. After taking this video I added a bit of clarifier and it seemed to minimize it for time being. Current #s: FC 8, CYA 30, pH 7.4, TA 90, Bor 50, CH 140.

Thank you for staying on this with me. It kept me on track - so I didn't get impulsive due to frustration and try a bunch of crazy stuff. Thanks so much - I'll report back on Gentle Spa.

Update: I've been in the process of balancing the water... pH kept drifting up above 8. CH is 150. Today I lowered TA to 80 but pH still went up to 8+ after 1/2 hr aeration, and it did that at 70 TA also. I didn't want to leave the pH that high, so I think my only choice was more acid, right? So I opened some new dry Sodium bisulfate ~95% and added 1T, bringing pH to 7.0 and TA to 60... seems a bit too low..? Measured pH after 15 min aeraation and it was 7.4, measured again after another 15 min, and it was 7.8. I decided to stop aerating right there. Then I went back to the forum and read more about ph drift, and one of you - I think Nitro - recommended Gentle Spa, saying it helps stabilize pH... if I remember his explanation - it adds a borate w/o raising pH? Anyway, I wasn't going to buy "one more product", but I ordered it online. I'm not sure if the pH is finished drifting upward, but instead of lowering TA anymore, I'm going to avoid aerating till I receive Gentle Spa next week. Other than that, the water looks crystal clear... oh - almost forgot. Chlor Demand = .37 and CC=0. After 1.5 hours use, only used 2ppm and raised CC barely a hair... less than .5 So other than the pH/TA issue, all's looking good. I'm goin' in.

ok...! I did a System Flush with SeaKlear, turned jets on and off a lot, also scooped out all mold that was floating on the surface. It was mostly flakes... but no big mucousy globs like the time before. I kept running the jets, stopping them and scooping whatever mold surfaced until it was pretty much gone and I was only seeing normal looking bubbles from the flush. It took some hours... Then I let it sit overnight. After draining this morning, I wet vacuumed all possible remaining water out of the pipes until I stopped hearing gurgling sounds. Ha! I was crazy if I thought I'd be able to turn the empty spa over... but the water I vacuumed out of the pipes actually looked pretty clean. I brought all utensils used for the spa in the kitchen sink for a wash before accidentally using them, and scrubbed the spa cover. Then I filled again, lowered the pH to 7.2 and did a decon at 76 degrees. I did that for about an hour and then drained it into my sewer cleanout. I did leave that final bit of decon water in the bottom of the tub to avoid having to deal with draining it. So when I filled with clean water, the FCC tested at 2.5 just from the bleach in that bit of remaining decon water in the bottom... not much because it's a small spa with a small floor space. Initial numbers of tap water filled spa: CH 150 TA 110 pH 7.7 In an attempt to lower TA to 80, I added liquid Sodium Bisulfate (SeaKlear pH down) aerating while waiting to remeasure the pH. The TA lowered to 100, but pH went up above 8! ...as if the aeration was working faster than the acid. Weird. So I tested numerous times with 3 different kits... they all tested about the same, above 8, so I added more acid, I waited an hour - still no change. So I decided to go ahead and add dichlor (since it's acidic) to total FC of 8, eventually I added enough acid to lower pH to 7.7. At this point it was dark outside with mosquitos biting me... so I called it a day. At least pH is within safe territory, and tomorrow I'll try lowering TA some more (acid/aeration method). But basically all looks good and spa is heating up overnight. After all I've tried in recent weeks, I think I'm committed to keeping the water really simple. Dichlor, bleach, acid. Maybe gradually add some borax. I just want to see what the water is like with just the basics for sanitation and balance. No other products. This way, I think it'll make it easier to detect when something is off. So thanks for the help and encouragement. I'll report back on how things look in a day or so. I'm exhausted... but thanks so much! Hopefully this worked. I think so.

Thanks. I did more searching online and found that other poolforum with more info on WWM. Something in there also mentioned adding borax saying it made it more difficult for the mold to survive. So I let temp go down to mid-80s, and about an hour ago added a bit more borax, removed the filter (have a new one waiting) added SeaKlear Spa SystemFlush, and ran for 1/2 hour and then again just now. Sitting here pondering, I realized why WWM came back this week. My old cheap test kit was showing chlorine to be roughly 1/2 the real level. So when I thought I was keeping it between 3-5ppm, it was ACTUALLY anywhere between 8-15ppm and that was enough to keep the mold at a low profile... just sort of waiting around for better conditions. A post on this at poolforum was really interesting. So anyway, once the Taylor kit arrived, I reset chlorine to REALLY be 4-6ppm - essentially about 1/2 what I'd been keeping it at - and I just realized that this is why the mold suddenly re-emerged. I also realized the reason my initial high level decon didn't work is because I did it with dichlor and the CYA was pretty high - so the stabilized chlorine wasn't that effective. Is my thinking on the right track? I think I'm getting a grasp of this. So I can run the jets some more later on, then let the flush sit overnight... current #s: Temp 81 CYA 30 FC 9 CC 1 Boron (Borax) 80ppm Ph 7.7 TA ~150 CH ~180 tomorrow morning I'll drain, scrub surfaces, wet vac out whatever possible in pipes. Maybe I'll even turn spa on its side if I can. Then I'll install new filter, refill and zap it with bleach. I'll make sure Ph is about 7.2 but TA is 150 so I don't think I should take the time to lower it... it'd take at least a day. I'm planning to decon it at about 80 degrees, run jets for 1h then drain into sewer line. I have a handy cleanout in front yard. Does this all sound right? I'll await for answer from one of you. You guys are absolutely great.

Thanks so much. That explains a lot. I'm cleaning the filter every few days and spray it out thoroughly - it basically looks good... and the filter compartment looks totally clean. And since my initial big mistake of trying an alternative enzyme system for the first 4 days I had this spa - during which mold pre-existing in the air jets was welcome to multiply (coincidentally, it did smell like mildew), I'm now maintaining it well, thanks to this forum. Yes I'm still kicking myself for trying something based on some philosophical idea rather than what we know works, based on scientific knowledge. So... it appears that mold is still in some hidden crevice underneath there, and has escaped getting flushed out. So thanks for all your help. Oh - for Chem Geek - you were right - now that I'm on bleach only - and aerated most of today, the Ph rose to 7.5. ok- wish me luck... I'll make time to do it next week and report back. thanks again! PS: I think one of you should create a post specifically about proper test kits... put it up there with the other basic ones. I did more comparisons today - Taylor against "Pool Time 6-way test strips" and "Basic 5 Test Kit by Poolmaster" (drop test kit sold at Home Depot), and they not only mislabel Total C as Combined C, so the numbers make no sense... but - and here's the worst part: the FC results are totally unreliable. On one test, Poolmaster drop kit (about $5) measured FC to be about 4, and on Taylor k-2006 the FC was 12.5 !! That's a HUGE discrepancy! Another day, FC of 5 on Poolmaster kit came in as 11.5 via Taylor. The Ph levels are much closer... usually about .2 - .5 difference between kits. But the chlorine inaccuracy could be dangerous. This would be a great main topic for new members to see right off. thanks again - judy

You just clarified something - that WWM is not technically a biofilm, so if I'm understanding correctly, WWM uses biofilm as a protection -it thrives best in an environment with biofilm. I think that's probably fairly accurate. I've read a number of conflicting explanations online... some equate them as the same. What I'm not clear about is - which is capable of absorbing oxidizing sanitizers (chloring/bromine) - biofilm or WWM? This seems important to know. A couple days after I first spotted the WWM (a month ago), I went online.. read a bunch... of course, most visible were products to buy. I ordered AquaFinesse because it claimed to remove biofilm. Is this the product? Almost immediately afterward and before receiving it, I found this forum, and began my decon attempts. So I have AF, and added it right after my decons... but signs of WWM reappeared, as I've described before, when FC dropped to 2 or 3. I'm mentioning this because from my brief experience, I don't think this particular product is strong enough if WWM already exists... just in case this is the product you're talking about. When a system flush is done, I'm guessing biofilm is easier to remove from pipes than WWM. Is this correct? Or is biofilm the difficult thing to remove, and WWM resides within it and is protected by it? If we knew more specifics about it, seems it'd be much easier to deal with. In any event, it seems it must be totally removed from the pipes... 100%, or it'll revive and start multiplying again. What I do know is - I did System Flush twice, water was of course left in the pipes each time but was followed by a decon, and each time the mold returned. I think all water must be vacuumed out. The other thing working against us is the spa temp. After the 2nd decon, all looked great at 80 degrees, still ok at 90. It was after I raised it to 100. Of course this is a sample of one with no control group. Please post whatever else you know about WWM. I'm trying to prepare myself for the next decon ordeal and make it work.

First language learned in college was Fortran IV level G here! Don't talk to me about punch cards! oh, I thought it was chem geek... you were a programmer? I learned on IBM 360... but went into online banking systems so did cobol and assembly language on a Sperry/Univac... for 20 yrs. Last mainframe work was Y2K, then switched to web/multimedia design/programming. Ummm, so was that a joke about someone having a 'cure' for WWM? FC was 6 last night and I figured it'd be 4 when I woke up, but overnight FC dropped to 2, with CC 1.5, and WWM fighting its way back. Ph seems solidly about 7.25 (a tinge pinker than 7.2) So I bleached it... first not enough - FC to 7.5 and CC went up to 2. I also added some enzyme and clear, hoping it'd maybe break it down a bit in the pipes... maybe yes, maybe no, but small clumps of mold started emerging. I added more bleach since CC was 2, and was scooping it out while waiting to test it again. FC went to 17 but CC is still 1.5.... , but after awhile at 17, water cleared up... for now. So... my understanding is - to get CC to zero, I really need to nuke it? Obviously 17 isn't high enough. More SpaFlush arrived today, so guess I need to buy a wet vac, then flush, vac out the pipes, maybe turn the whole thing upside down... (crazy? maybe) and then a super-decon at a ridiculous level... and keep it cold (80?) to avoid getting sick from inhaling it. So you need to tell me if this WWM product was a joke (my guess is yes)...