Cya = 100Ppm

[new2spa]

Got my Taylor test kit on Christmas Eve, did a full test today and found my CYA was at 100ppm. Going to do a full drain and re-fill tomorrow. My main concern is my spa is only a month old, and I wasn't using very much dichlor to begin with. I can't figure out how on earth my CYA got so high only after a month. I had been using a good amount of PH/Alk, took me almost a week to bring down my ALK and PH to acceptable levels. Is it possible that the PH/ALK down chemical was adding CYA to my spa? I did the test 2 times with the taylor kit just to make sure, came back the same both times.

My spa dealer told me not to worry about CYA, that it's more important for pools, but everything I read on these forums say the opposite. I'm not too worried about the refill, I just want to try to prevent this happening again is all. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I have done the CYA test in the sunlight (I was doing it in my kitchen)? Could I be giving myself a false high reading? My dealer tested my water 2 weeks ago and told me my CYA was at 55. Since then I only added bleach and now I am seeing 100ppm. My dealer has been in business almost 35 years, I tend to think his testing might be more accurate then mine.

Ugh...

[waterbear]

Got my Taylor test kit on Christmas Eve, did a full test today and found my CYA was at 100ppm. Going to do a full drain and re-fill tomorrow. My main concern is my spa is only a month old, and I wasn't using very much dichlor to begin with. I can't figure out how on earth my CYA got so high only after a month. I had been using a good amount of PH/Alk, took me almost a week to bring down my ALK and PH to acceptable levels. Is it possible that the PH/ALK down chemical was adding CYA to my spa? I did the test 2 times with the taylor kit just to make sure, came back the same both times.

No, Alk increaser is just plain baking soda and pH increase is plain washing soda or soda ash. Neither will cause CYA to rise. CYA (cyanuric acid) is found in stabilized chlorine products (which are dichlor granules and trichlor tabs) and by adding the chemical directly as stabilizer or conditioner.

For each 10 ppm of FC added by dichlor you are adding 9 ppm of CYA and for each 10 ppm of FC added by trichlor tabs you are adding 6 ppm CYA.

Therefore in a months time your initial shock to 10 ppm would get you to 9 ppm CYA. Assiming yo needed to add about 2 ppm FC daily that would beem that you are adding another 9 ppm every 5 days. In 30 days that gets you to 9 x 6 = 54 ppm FC + the original 9 ppm = 63 ppm. Add another few shocks (and the precision of the test) AND THERE YOU GO! 100 PPM! If you are also using tricblor tabs they have been adding CYA also!

My spa dealer told me not to worry about CYA, that it's more important for pools, but everything I read on these forums say the opposite. I'm not too worried about the refill, I just want to try to prevent this happening again is all. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I have done the CYA test in the sunlight (I was doing it in my kitchen)? Could I be giving myself a false high reading? My dealer tested my water 2 weeks ago and told me my CYA was at 55. Since then I only added bleach and now I am seeing 100ppm. My dealer has been in business almost 35 years, I tend to think his testing might be more accurate then mine.

Ugh...

Trust your own testing. (Is your dealer using liquid reagents and a view tube for the CYA test, a strip readier, or little vials of reagents that he reads in a machine? Believe it or not, the first method, which is also in your Taylor kit, is the most precise One would think that the little vials and the colorimeter would be very precise but the test is acutally much less precise than the view tube test!)

As far as being more important for pool, hogwash. It is probably more important for spas since water borne pathogens will grow more quickly in the hot water of a spa and high CYA lessens the effectiveness of chlorine at killing pathogens. Many cases of psuedomonas (hot tub itch) are linked to overstabilized spas (which is why some localities forbid the use of CYA in commercial spas and require liquid chlorine injection pumps or other constant chemical feeder systems to maintain a constant FC level.)

To read the CYA test I like to stand in open shade and hold the view tube at waist level. If you want to reconfirm your results you can pour the liquid back into the dispenser and then back into the view tube.

Taylor has excellent howto videos on their site that show how to do all the tests properly. Click on the pool/spa link in the upper left corner and then scroll down to watch the vids.

[chem geek]

Got my Taylor test kit on Christmas Eve, did a full test today and found my CYA was at 100ppm. Going to do a full drain and re-fill tomorrow. My main concern is my spa is only a month old, and I wasn't using very much dichlor to begin with. I can't figure out how on earth my CYA got so high only after a month. I had been using a good amount of PH/Alk, took me almost a week to bring down my ALK and PH to acceptable levels. Is it possible that the PH/ALK down chemical was adding CYA to my spa? I did the test 2 times with the taylor kit just to make sure, came back the same both times.

If you have been using the spa regularly, then it doesn't take long to build up the CYA level when using Dichlor. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm. Every person-hour of soaking uses around 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons so if you are using the spa regularly then you could have added around 110 ppm FC over the month as that is around 3-1/2 ppm FC per day or about a half-hour of soaking every day. 110 ppm FC in 350 gallons is around 9.4 ounces of Dichlor or around 19 tablespoons or 56 teaspoons -- about 2 teaspoons per day over a month (in a smaller spa the same amount of Dichlor adds more FC and CYA). Is this what you have been using? Don't forget to add in the initial shock of Dichlor you probably did initially or any other time.

[new2spa]

What I don't understand is I have only been using bleach since my dealer told me my CYA is 55. I have a hard time believing that my test and the dealers would be so far apart! We are talking 50ppm difference between our tests. My CH is low (80ppm), so not sure if that effects my CYA test in anyway. I've had my spa now for a little over a month now so I should be doing a drain and refill anyways. I'm going to watch that CYA like a hawk this time. Is it at all possible CYA is in my tap water even before I start? Going to test my tap water.

I only used granular chlorine for a few weeks, but the test kit doesn't lie, I must have added enough granular chlorine to get my CYA that high. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything else I was adding to my spa that would add more CYA then what the granular chlorine was adding.

EDIT: Just did another CYA test with my K-2006 kit, when I did it in the sunlight my test came back around 50ppm. That CYA test is kinda tricky to get the hang of (I watched the demo on the Taylor website). I just hope I am doing it right!

[waterbear]

The CYA test should not really be done in sunlight. Open shade is better. How is your dealer testing? If he is not using the same method but either a strip reader or a colroimiter then it is very possible that he is reading lower. Just because he told you it was 55 ppm does not mean it really is. For example the LaMotte Waterlink Expresss system (vials of dry reagents, a calibrated water pipette, and a computer connected colorimeter that costs a dealer well over $1000) has a precision of +10/-25 for the CYA test while the Taylor view tube test is +/- 10 ppm. Strip reader systems are much worse. Even if he is using a Taylor lab for testing many dealers tend to lowball CYA readings because it cuts into their dichlor and trichlor sales when customers start to realize the problems with using stabilized chlorine.

[chem geek]

Strong indirect light is best for the CYA test. Taylor recommends standing outside with your back to the sun so that you shade the tube in front of you where you look directly down at the tube. However, if you keep track of how much Dichlor you add, then figuring out the CYA is easy. Usually around a week or so of Dichlor usage will get you to 30 ppm CYA which is roughly where you want to be and can then switch to bleach at that point. However, when you switch to bleach, you want to have your Total Alkalinity (TA) be low at around 50 ppm and should consider using 50 ppm Borates as well. This will help to keep your pH more stable.

[waterbear]

Strong indirect light is best for the CYA test. Taylor recommends standing outside with your back to the sun so that you shade the tube in front of you where you look directly down at the tube.

As I said, open shade.

[waterbear]

Is it at all possible CYA is in my tap water even before I start? Going to test my tap water.

Highly unlikely. Only conceivable way I know would be from contamination from certain herbicide runoff (atrazine, which can be biodegraded to CYA) and if that is in your tapwater you have much bigger problems to deal with!

[new2spa]

Thank you very much Waterbear and Chemgeek as always. I have a salt water spa so I wasn't sure if I should add borates to my water or not. My TA right now is at 80, my main concern after my CYA was my CH. My CH is at 80ppm. I'm going to my dealer today and buying some more salt, going to do a full drain and refill. My spa is little over a month old now so really I should be doing this anyways. 1 last question... For a salt water spa is there anything different I should be doing with Nitros bleach method?

[chem geek]

By saltwater do you mean there is higher salt levels only for the feel of the water or do you mean there is a saltwater chlorine generator? Either way, the Dichlor-then-bleach method is the same but if you have a saltwater chlorine generator then you should tune it so that you need not add any chlorine in between soaks if you don't use the spa frequently (every day or two), just add enough chlorine manually after a soak to handle the incremental bather load. That is, the saltwater chlorine generator will handle the background chlorine maintenance. If you use the spa every day or two in a regular usage pattern, then you can turn up the saltwater chlorine generator to handle more of the bather load unless that gets the chlorine too high at the start of your soak such that you don't like the higher level. No matter what system you have, you basically tune your dosing amounts so that you always have some chlorine in the spa at all times, usually measuring just before your next soak.

By the way, for the Dichlor-then-bleach method you should really be using 50 ppm Borates and these borates will also have a saltwater effect/benefit, though not as strong as having say 1000-1500 ppm actual salt. You should also make sure that you are not voiding your spa warranty by using salt in it -- some do not want you to add salt to their spas as they may not be constructed from the most corrosion-resistant materials.

[new2spa]

By saltwater do you mean there is higher salt levels only for the feel of the water or do you mean there is a saltwater chlorine generator? Either way, the Dichlor-then-bleach method is the same but if you have a saltwater chlorine generator then you should tune it so that you need not add any chlorine in between soaks if you don't use the spa frequently (every day or two), just add enough chlorine manually after a soak to handle the incremental bather load. That is, the saltwater chlorine generator will handle the background chlorine maintenance. If you use the spa every day or two in a regular usage pattern, then you can turn up the saltwater chlorine generator to handle more of the bather load unless that gets the chlorine too high at the start of your soak such that you don't like the higher level. No matter what system you have, you basically tune your dosing amounts so that you always have some chlorine in the spa at all times, usually measuring just before your next soak.

By the way, for the Dichlor-then-bleach method you should really be using 50 ppm Borates and these borates will also have a saltwater effect/benefit, though not as strong as having say 1000-1500 ppm actual salt. You should also make sure that you are not voiding your spa warranty by using salt in it -- some do not want you to add salt to their spas as they may not be constructed from the most corrosion-resistant materials.

I have an ACE system installed on my spa. My salt runs in the 1500-1700ppm range. The problem was, and still is my ACE system doesn't produce nearly enough chlorine to keep up with how much I use my spa. I'm using my spa, on average, almost 10 hours a week. The ACE system helps, but no way can it keep up with how much I use my spa.

Tonight I am going to do a proper Taylor test of my FC before and after my evening soak, so I know a ballpark estimate of my chlorine demand during my soak. Thanks for the input on borates, I am going to the pool supply store in the morning(was closed today). I will pick up some borates, thanks for the input Chem, I was always curious if the dichlor-then-bleach method was any different for a spa with the ACE system.

[chem geek]

OK, thanks for clarifying (I should have looked back at your posts more carefully). You can certainly use the Dichlor-then-bleach system in conjunction with your Ace system. Basically, the Ace will handle some of the bather load as well as generating a small background level of chlorine for times when you aren't using the tub (say, on vacation), but for much of your bather load you will use chlorine you add yourself. If there were no Ace system at all, then every person-hour of soaking would require around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach (or 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS, such as with a Nature² system). However, you'll have to figure out what lower amount will be needed since Ace will handle some of the bather load. If you are lucky, perhaps Ace will handle half the load. Just add enough chlorine after your soak so that you get an FC reading at the start of your next soak.

The only thing that the Ace system might do is to break down CYA faster (from the hydroxyl radicals generated from its diamond electrodes) so I'd check that level after one month to see if CYA is still present at around 30 ppm that you start off with from initially using Dichlor. If not, then you'll need to use Dichlor more frequently

[new2spa]

OK, thanks for clarifying (I should have looked back at your posts more carefully). You can certainly use the Dichlor-then-bleach system in conjunction with your Ace system. Basically, the Ace will handle some of the bather load as well as generating a small background level of chlorine for times when you aren't using the tub (say, on vacation), but for much of your bather load you will use chlorine you add yourself. If there were no Ace system at all, then every person-hour of soaking would require around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach (or 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS, such as with a Nature² system). However, you'll have to figure out what lower amount will be needed since Ace will handle some of the bather load. If you are lucky, perhaps Ace will handle half the load. Just add enough chlorine after your soak so that you get an FC reading at the start of your next soak.

The only thing that the Ace system might do is to break down CYA faster (from the hydroxyl radicals generated from its diamond electrodes) so I'd check that level after one month to see if CYA is still present at around 30 ppm that you start off with from initially using Dichlor. If not, then you'll need to use Dichlor more frequently

My CD is about 5-7ppm per soak depending on how long my wife stays in the spa with me. I picked up some gentle spa today, along with a few other chemicals. Got this stuff called Zip Chlor. They didn't have anything labeled straight up dichlor. 1 question I have Chem is this Gentle Spa stuff just tells me to add 2oz's of product per 150 gallons. Is that going to get me around 50ppm?

[waterbear]

I picked up some gentle spa today, along with a few other chemicals. Got this stuff called Zip Chlor. They didn't have anything labeled straight up dichlor.

Zip Chlor is Proteam's brand of dichor, read the ingredients.

1 question I have Chem is this Gentle Spa stuff just tells me to add 2oz's of product per 150 gallons. Is that going to get me around 50ppm?

According to the Proteam website it's 4 oz per 150 gallons which should get you nicely bewtween 30-50 ppm (closer to 30 but that is fine). In addition they recommand adding an additional 1 oz montly if there is frequent water replacement in the spa from splashout. (however, testing with a LaMotte Borate test strip would be the preferred method and topping off the borates should not be necessary for most people but testing is really the only way to tell.)

[chem geek]

The ProTeam® Gentle Spa is mostly boric acid (it also has some sodium tetraborate pentahydrate to make it more pH neutral) so you can use The Pool Calculator to calculate dosing or just use the rough guidelines you've already been given.

[new2spa]

I picked up some gentle spa today, along with a few other chemicals. Got this stuff called Zip Chlor. They didn't have anything labeled straight up dichlor.

Zip Chlor is Proteam's brand of dichor, read the ingredients.

1 question I have Chem is this Gentle Spa stuff just tells me to add 2oz's of product per 150 gallons. Is that going to get me around 50ppm?

According to the Proteam website it's 4 oz per 150 gallons which should get you nicely bewtween 30-50 ppm (closer to 30 but that is fine). In addition they recommand adding an additional 1 oz montly if there is frequent water replacement in the spa from splashout. (however, testing with a LaMotte Borate test strip would be the preferred method and topping off the borates should not be necessary for most people but testing is really the only way to tell.)

Thank you Waterbear. I am in the process now of draining and refilling my spa. I'm kinda disheartened by the fact that my spa owners manual is telling me NOT to use bleach... which I can't understand for the life of me why that would matter. My ACE system is suppose to be producing chlorine, not sure what difference it would make using liquid chlorine, but now I am scared to void my warranty.

Just got an Email from my dealer saying DO NOT use bleach. I'm in a real pinch here because now I have no idea how to keep my CYA low, and keep my tub sanitized.

EDIT: Thanks Chem Geek! I am using pool calculator religiously now for everything. That thing needs a "donate" button!

[new2spa]

Just got an Email from my spa dealer telling me NOT to use bleach in my spa. I asked him if I could buy any kind of chlorine that wouldn't add CYA to my water. Is there an alternative to using bleach?

I really want to use the dichlor-bleach method in conjunction with my ACE system. Currently my ACE system can't produce nearly enough FC to keep up with demand, and with needing to add dichlor to keep my tub sanitized, my CYA has topped 100ppm. I'm right in the middle of draining my tub right now (all the way) and re-filling. I'm kinda stumped on how to keep my CYA down to 20ppm AND keeping my spa sanitized, and not being able to use bleach (per my Dealer and my owners manual).

[chem geek]

Why don't you find out directly from the HotSpring ACE manufacturer why they say not to use bleach. I suspect it is because they are worried about the pH rising since their diamond electrodes are very prone to scaling which is why they have you lower the CH to around 50 ppm using their Vanishing Act™ product. However, they may not be aware that you are keeping the Total Alkalinity (TA) lower to reduce the rate of pH rise from carbon dioxide outgassing and that you are using boric acid as an additional pH buffer. They may also not be aware of you already having Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water to moderate chlorine's strength. They may also not be aware that you are using high quality 6% bleach (such as Clorox Regular or an off-brand Ultra) that has no extra chemicals that could cause problems such as thickeners. They may also not know that you add your bleach slowly with the circulation pump running to ensure thorough mixing. Of course, the dealer may not understand chemistry in detail as most say to not use bleach in spas -- not just ones with the Ace system. They seem to ignore the fact that chlorinating liquid is often used in commercial/public spas via peristaltic pumps.

If you were to add a lot of bleach without using borates in the water, then the pH could get too high. The CYA in the water actually has the pH rise more when you increase the chlorine level because the CYA acts as a hypochlorous acid buffer. For example, if I assume a TA of 50 ppm and CYA of 30 ppm, then adding 10 ppm FC to a spa with no borates starting out with a pH of 7.5 would have the pH rise to 8.54 which is high. With 50 ppm Borates in the water, the pH would only rise to 7.78 which is reasonable (with 30 ppm Borates, the pH would rise to 7.87 which is OK though is partly why we recommend 50 ppm Borates). Even adding 5 ppm FC with no borates has the pH go from 7.5 to 7.99 while with 50 ppm borates it only goes to 7.65. You can see why the use of borates is important in a spa when using bleach. After the chlorine is used up, which is an acidic process, the pH drops back down (unless carbon dioxide outgassing keeps it higher).

By the way, the HotSpring® ACE™ saltwater sanitizing system owner's manual and operation guide do not mention bleach. I believe you are referring to the owner's manual for the spa itself where they say "DON’T use household bleach (liquid sodium hypochlorite)". This is not uncommon among spa manufacturers since it's a lot easier to just say to not use bleach rather than to explain that one needs to have a much lower TA, have a supplemental pH buffer (such as borates), and test pH to make sure it doesn't go up too much. It is amazing that even among manufacturers, they don't all understand the relationship between pH and TA, but then again they aren't mostly chemists.

If you are adding 5-7 ppm per soak and were to use Dichlor for that every day (assuming a soak every day), then you would increase the CYA level by around 135 to 190 ppm per month unless the ACE™ system were to break down CYA. It sounds like following the advice of your dealer and honoring the owner's manual instructions to presumably not void the warranty will have you changing the water more frequently than you would otherwise need to or possibly having low disinfection rates increasing your risk of getting hot tub itch/rash/lung. I suppose you could test your CYA after a month and see its level, though so far it does seem that the CYA is climbing roughly as explained from Dichlor usage with possibly some reduction of CYA from the ACE™ system. Of course, you could follow scientifically sound advice by using bleach with proper TA and borate levels, but then be going against what your dealer and HotSprings® are telling you and possibly voiding your warranty. Your spa dealer may have been in business for 35 years, but has no understanding of the chlorine/CYA relationship that has been known definitively since at least 1974. He thinks CYA only has to do with protecting chlorine from breakdown from sunlight, as in outdoor pools, and is ignoring the fact that when CYA is present, most chlorine is bound to it and not active thereby significantly reducing disinfection and oxidation rates roughly proportional to the FC/CYA ratio (see the "Chlorine/CYA Relationship" section in this post for more details).

[chem geek]

I just called Watkins Manufacturing, the manufacturer of HotSpring® spas, and the customer service representative was very helpful and tried to connect me with their chemist, but unfortunately they are out on holiday (as am I) so I'll have to call them back on or after January 3rd which I will plan to do. The customer service rep didn't see a problem with what I was proposing, but he said that was the type of question he would ask the chemist so it'll take until next week until we can get a more definitive answer, at least from Watkins Manufacturing.

[new2spa]

Chem geek thank you so much, can say it enough how much I appreciate all the feedback. I was on the phone with Watkins today about my ACE unit. Turns out that I had the wrong ACE unit installed on my Limelight. The ACE system was under-producing chlorine,and what was being produced, wasn't being circulated properly. Hot Springs is sending my dealer a brand new ACE unit to my dealer, NEXT DAY AIR. I can't tell you how blown away I am by Hot Springs customer service.

With that being said my new ACE system should be able to keep up with my chlorine demand. I think(and hope) my high CYA problems might be a thing of the past. If my ACE system can keep up with even 80% of my demand, that would mean if I had to add any bleach or dichlor, it would be very little. I would still like to know if using bleach would void my warranty.

[waterbear]

I would still like to know if using bleach would void my warranty.

I would be very surprised if it did since bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is what the system produces so how would they know if the bleach was added or produced by the ace system.

[new2spa]

Well did a full water change, but now I am faced with a new problem. My TA is low (50ppm), and my PH is at 7.6. So now I'm not sure what to do, I would like to get my TA up to 80, and my PH at 7.5. Is there a way to raise my TA without also raising my PH? I was going to raise my TA to 100 with baking soda, then try again to get my PH down. One main problem is my ACE system requires me to have a CH of 50ppm. So I think I might be in for mission impossible with needing to keep my CH so low. This is per the ACE instruction manual. It says to maintain my CH at 50, TA at 80, and PH at 7.5. Is there a product out there that will decrease my PH more then TA? Figured then I could just raise my TA and slowly try to wrestle my PH down without dropping my TA past 70-80ppm.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated

I'm kinda at a loss how to proceed. I would imagine raising CH would be the first step, but that's not an option(per ACE owners manual and service tech from Watkins) Apparently the ACE system runs best with a CH at 50. So I am trying to think of ways to get my water balanced with a CH that low!

[waterbear]

Lowering TA is a process. This link should help explain it.

[chem geek]

If your fill water CH is higher than 50 ppm, then you use HotSpring® ACE® Vanishing Act Calcium Remover to lower the CH. The low CH is required to prevent scaling at the (boron doped) diamond electrodes. As for the TA, if your pH tends to rise, then do not try and raise the TA. Ignore the advice of having 80 ppm TA if that causes the pH to rise too much (which I suspect it will). I'll talk to the HotSpring chemists on Tuesday when they get back and see if you can have a lower TA of around 50 ppm or so along with 50 ppm borates (say, from boric acid) to have pH buffering for stable pH. I'll also ask about having some CYA in the water (say, from some Dichlor usage initially) so that the active chlorine level isn't so high.

Technically, the combination they are talking about of TA 80, CH 50 and pH 7.5, assuming temp is 104ºF and no CYA, is a saturation index of around -0.5 and is probably to prevent scaling at the hydrogen gas generation plate. I'm guessing that the ACE® system may not reverse polarity since maybe only one of the electrodes is the expensive diamond one while the hydrogen gas generation one may be more standard. Anyway, if I simulate adding hydroxide (lye) as is done at the hydrogen gas generation plate, then the amount needed to get to a saturation index of 0 lets me see what CH level you could tolerate with a TA of 60 ppm, CYA of 30 ppm, 50 ppm Borates and pH of 7.5 -- you could have a CH as high as 300 ppm (much more than needed to prevent foaming) and get the same saturation index as before. It's mostly the borates that handle this extreme of buffering. Again, I'll ask the chemists at HotSpring about this as an alternative for you.

[new2spa]

If your fill water CH is higher than 50 ppm, then you use HotSpring® ACE® Vanishing Act Calcium Remover to lower the CH. The low CH is required to prevent scaling at the (boron doped) diamond electrodes. As for the TA, if your pH tends to rise, then do not try and raise the TA. Ignore the advice of having 80 ppm TA if that causes the pH to rise too much (which I suspect it will). I'll talk to the HotSpring chemists on Tuesday when they get back and see if you can have a lower TA of around 50 ppm or so along with 50 ppm borates (say, from boric acid) to have pH buffering for stable pH. I'll also ask about having some CYA in the water (say, from some Dichlor usage initially) so that the active chlorine level isn't so high.

Technically, the combination they are talking about of TA 80, CH 50 and pH 7.5, assuming temp is 104ºF and no CYA, is a saturation index of around -0.5 and is probably to prevent scaling at the hydrogen gas generation plate. I'm guessing that the ACE® system may not reverse polarity since maybe only one of the electrodes is the expensive diamond one while the hydrogen gas generation one may be more standard. Anyway, if I simulate adding hydroxide (lye) as is done at the hydrogen gas generation plate, then the amount needed to get to a saturation index of 0 lets me see what CH level you could tolerate with a TA of 60 ppm, CYA of 30 ppm, 50 ppm Borates and pH of 7.5 -- you could have a CH as high as 300 ppm (much more than needed to prevent foaming) and get the same saturation index as before. It's mostly the borates that handle this extreme of buffering. Again, I'll ask the chemists at HotSpring about this as an alternative for you.

My ACE owner's manual states I should have the following:

Parameter ----------Target -----------Min-Max---------------What my level is

Salt : -------------1500ppm--------1000ppm-1750ppm ------------1620ppm

CH : ---------------50ppm ---------25ppm-75ppm----------------50ppm

TA : ---------------80ppm-----------40ppm-120ppm----------------50ppm

pH : -----------------7.4------------------7.2-7.6---------------------7.6

Chlorine: -----------3ppm-------------1ppm-5ppm-------------------4ppm

I also have 50ppm of borates in my spa (gentle spa). My dealer said it was safe to use with the ACE system.

I know I am within range of my TA, however I was under the assumption per Nitro's guild to water maintenance that my TA being so low could create an "unstable situation". However my main concern is how on earth I can lower my pH to 7.4 while not also lowering my TA even lower. I read Waterbears post on lowering TA, however I am still stumped because I really need to raise my TA and also LOWER my pH. So the only way I can see as an option is bring my TA back up to 120ppm, then trying to just somehow lower my pH to 7.5 without dropping my TA below 60-80ppm in the process.

I'm stumped