How Do I Get Started?

[Venams]

I have a 2008 Sundance Optima and have been using Nature's Way spa chemicals which are sold by my local dealer.

I am less than thrilled at the results as I've battled cloudy water and obnoxious smells for the past few years.

I've used Sani-Spa which I believe is DiChlor and Spa Shock to shock and sanitize. I also use PH down (Sodium Bicarbonate about 42 ounces on newly filled tub about 500 gallons) and Metal-X (about 14 ounces).

So I've read so many things on the net about Muriatic Acid and Bleach and I'm totally confused. Can someone set me up with a new regimen on my Optima. So far I've balanced the water using Aquacheck test strips and the regular PH DOWN with about 2 ouncs of the Sani-Spa (Dichlor).

What should I buy and how do I convert to the "new" method?

[waterbear]

Nothing to "convert". Just read about using either bromine or dichlor/bleach in the hot tub water chemistry section and take it form there.

[Venams]

No disrespect Waterbear. I'd like to start using the dichlor/chlorine regiment but quite frankly; I've read about 3 hours of posts on this forum/stickies and I'm completely confused. Moreso overwhelmed. My initial post was asking what items specifically do I need to get started on the chorine regimen and if possible where can I buy them at decent prices.

So far I've seen these items talked about:

Muriatic Acid

Dry Acid (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

Borox/Borax (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

Gentle Spa (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

Calcium (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

Salt (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

CYA (how is this labeled on the shelf and where do I buy?)

The maitenance section said all I'd need to balance the water is:

Calcium

Backing Soda

Dry Acid

Borates

I have and have been using rather price products from my local Spa Store: Sani-Spa (Sodium dichloro triazinetrione), Spa Shock (PMG), Metal-X (for lowering metals in our well water), and PH DOWN (Sodium bisulfate)

Can you give me advice as to what products to buy, where I might find them and about how much they should cost Please? I'm assuming I would replace using the Sani-Spa and PH Down but would still need the metal-x and PMG once a week?

Thanks in advance sir!

[waterbear]

Don't have time for a full answer right now as I have to get back to work but I will post the info you seek late tonight when I get home (in the wee hours of the morning my time). OK?

BUT, pH down (sodium BISULFATE, not soidum bicarbonte) IS dry acid and I would recommend that over muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) for pH lowering in a spa because it is easier to measure and there is less chance of overdosing (since the amount if muriatic acid requried is often a teaspoon OR LESS and it is nasty stuff to try and measure in that small an amount).

Calcium is calcium chloride sold in pool/spa stores as calcium increaser. You can get it in 50 lb bags but for a spa the smaller containers, even though more expensive. are probably more cost effective, IF you need it (calcium is below about 130 ppm).

Salt is really only for Salt water chlorine generator systems and it is water softnener solar salt.

You do not need CYA. Dichlor (your Sani-Spa is dichlor) will add both CYA and Chlorine. For every 10 ppm chlorine added dichlor adds 9 ppm CYA (stabilizer) Once the chlorine is used up the CYa remains behind. Once you have added enough dichlor to bring the CYA up to 20-30 ppm you seithc to bleach (sodium hypochlorite) which only adds chlorine to the water.

Borax is 20 Mule Team Borax found in the laundry aisle of the grociery or Walmart or Target, etc.

Gentle Spa is a borax product sold by Proteam It is pH neutral since it is a mixture of borax and boric acid (and scented).

Baking soda (sodium BICARBONATE) IS alkalinity increaser....cheaper at the grocery than the spa store and purer since it is for food use!

IF your fill water does not have metals then you do not need the metalX.

The only shock you need is bleach. I assume the spa shock is MPS (Potassium MonoPerSulfate) and that PMG is a typo. MPS can be useful if you have persistant combined chloramines but often is not needed.

Finally, the MOST IMPORTANT THING you need is a Taylor K-2006 ( not K-2005 or other test kit). You cannot properly maintain a spa on strips. Period.

[Venams]

Thank you kindly sir and I'll wait patiently for your follow-up!

Yes I was referring to MPS not PMG, Sorry!

I'm also hoping that I can find either the Sodium Dichlor (2 lbs granules for 10.99)or Sodium Bisulfate (1qt 8.99) cheaper than my spa store? At least I hope!

Check out Home Depot or Walmart and get the ones sold for pools. Just make sure thay do not contain other things like algacides or other additives

[Venams]

One more thing. I could not find a Taylor K-1006 Test Kit. I'm assuming it's the K-2006 kit that I just ordered from Amazon.com for 46 (sold by Amato Industries)? I hope that's the one. If not can someone please reply ASAP so I can cancel order?

[waterbear]

One more thing. I could not find a Taylor K-1006 Test Kit. I'm assuming it's the K-2006 kit that I just ordered from Amazon.com for 46 (sold by Amato Industries)? I hope that's the one. If not can someone please reply ASAP so I can cancel order?

Yep, just a typo (that I have corrected). As I said i was in a rush to get to work.

If you would say how many gallon is your tub I will try and simplify the startup directions. The chemicals and supplies you will need are:

Dichlor (which you have, you only need this on fresh fills. Once the CYA is up to about 20-30 ppm you switch to bleach)

pH decreaser (which you have)

(the ones sold for pool use are often more economical than the ones sold for spa use and they are the identical chemicals)

Chlorine laundry bleach from the grocery

baking soda from the grocery (when you need to raise TA)

Borax from the grocery ,used to both raise the pH (which you probably won't ever need to do unless you accidentally overdose on acid) and to get the borates up to 50 ppm.

You might need calcium chloride IF your calcium hardness is below about 130 ppm.

Taylor K-2006

LaMotte Borate test strips (much better than the AquaChek strips, easier to read)

Optional : a scum bug to float in the spa (special oil absorbing sponge that helps soak up body oils and lotions to help prevent a scum line, only about $6 and they last about a year.

You do not need a metal remover UNLESS your fill water has metals in it (have your local pool/spa store check for iron and copper or fill the spa with softened water if you have a water softener and then bump up the calcium to about 130 ppm. Water softeners take out metals.)

IF your fill water has a very high calcium hardness (above a bout 400 ppm) a metal remover can help prevent scaling (calcium IS a metal after all).

You do not need defoamers, enzymes, MPS shock, clarifiers, etc. except under special conditions

It is a good idea to use a spa purge maybe once a year.

Once you get your kit post a full set of test results and we can take it from there.

[Venams]

One more thing. I could not find a Taylor K-1006 Test Kit. I'm assuming it's the K-2006 kit that I just ordered from Amazon.com for 46 (sold by Amato Industries)? I hope that's the one. If not can someone please reply ASAP so I can cancel order?

Yep, just a typo (that I have corrected). As I said i was in a rush to get to work.

If you would say how many gallon is your tub I will try and simplify the startup directions. The chemicals and supplies you will need are:

Dichlor (which you have, you only need this on fresh fills. Once the CYA is up to about 20-30 ppm you switch to bleach)

pH decreaser (which you have)

(the ones sold for pool use are often more economical than the ones sold for spa use and they are the identical chemicals)

Chlorine laundry bleach from the grocery

baking soda from the grocery (when you need to raise TA)

Borax from the grocery ,used to both raise the pH (which you probably won't ever need to do unless you accidentally overdose on acid) and to get the borates up to 50 ppm.

You might need calcium chloride IF your calcium hardness is below about 130 ppm.

Taylor K-2006

LaMotte Borate test strips (much better than the AquaChek strips, easier to read)

Optional : a scum bug to float in the spa (special oil absorbing sponge that helps soak up body oils and lotions to help prevent a scum line, only about $6 and they last about a year.

You do not need a metal remover UNLESS your fill water has metals in it (have your local pool/spa store check for iron and copper or fill the spa with softened water if you have a water softener and then bump up the calcium to about 130 ppm. Water softeners take out metals.)

IF your fill water has a very high calcium hardness (above a bout 400 ppm) a metal remover can help prevent scaling (calcium IS a metal after all).

You do not need defoamers, enzymes, MPS shock, clarifiers, etc. except under special conditions

It is a good idea to use a spa purge maybe once a year.

Once you get your kit post a full set of test results and we can take it from there.

Thanks Waterbug. I have a Sundance Optima and it's fill is 485 US Gallons. I think I'm going to look for the Pool Dichlor and PH Down like you mentioned. I use way too much of the small bottles that my Spa Store sells. Hopefully Walmart or Meijer might sell them for Pools?

I'll pick up some 20 mule team Borax if I read the information correctly. My local water report shows the following so I think I need the Metal-X (my tub scaled horribly the first time I filled and didn't use it!):

Iron .12mg/l

Sodium 280mg/l

Lead 0ug/l (15 ug/l action)

Copper 1.3mg/l (1.3mg/l action)

[waterbear]

Thanks Waterbug.

It's waterbear but you can call me tardigrade if you prefer.

I have a Sundance Optima and it's fill is 485 US Gallons. I think I'm going to look for the Pool Dichlor and PH Down like you mentioned. I use way too much of the small bottles that my Spa Store sells. Hopefully Walmart or Meijer might sell them for Pools?

I'll pick up some 20 mule team Borax if I read the information correctly. My local water report shows the following so I think I need the Metal-X (my tub scaled horribly the first time I filled and didn't use it!):

Iron .12mg/l

Sodium 280mg/l

Lead 0ug/l (15 ug/l action)

Copper 1.3mg/l (1.3mg/l action)

Scale is from high calcium, not from iron or copper. Iron causes brown stains and copper causes green hair. If your copper is as high as you say you have problems since this is the highest allowed level for copper in drinking water and is high enough to cause staining and green hair in a hot tub. When copper is used in a hot tub or pool it is used at a level of less than 1 ppm (normally .3 to .6 for algae control and .9 for bacterial control. It has very slow kill times and no action against viruses. IF your copper is that high it is most likely the result of older copper plumbing in your house.

I would recommend using Jack's Magic Blue Stuff or Proteam Metal Magic instead of metalx.

[Venams]

Waterbear;

Got my Taylor kit and ran the full test results.

I have about 485 gallons in my Optima and it is equipped with OZONONATOR.

TA = 150PPM

(sample turned light pink at 14 drops and got darker with 15 drops so used 15 drops- not sure whether to use measurement of drops when it first changes color or gets deeper/truer in color?)

CH = 70-90PPM

(again turned light blue at 7 drops but got darker blue at 9 drops - not sure to use measurement when it first changes color or when it gets deep in color?)

CYA = 53PPM

Chlorine = 13.5PPM

CC = 6PPM

OK. What should I do next?

[Venams]

Waterbear;

Got my Taylor kit and ran the full test results.

I have about 485 gallons in my Optima and it is equipped with OZONONATOR.

TA = 150PPM

(sample turned light pink at 14 drops and got darker with 15 drops so used 15 drops- not sure whether to use measurement of drops when it first changes color or gets deeper/truer in color?)

CH = 70-90PPM

(again turned light blue at 7 drops but got darker blue at 9 drops - not sure to use measurement when it first changes color or when it gets deep in color?)

CYA = 53PPM

Chlorine = 13.5PPM

CC = 6PPM

OK. What should I do next?

forgot to add that my Spa temp is 97 degrees and my fill is about 1 week old. Balanced initial fill using test strips and PH Down, Metal-X and Sani-Spa (Dichlor)

[Venams]

I made an error in calculating FC and CC. Updated results from yesterday are below:

* Spa temp is 97 degrees and my fill is about 1 week old. Balanced initial fill using test strips and PH Down, Metal-X and Sani-Spa (Dichlor. Spa has Ozonator

TA = 150PPM

(sample turned light pink at 14 drops and got darker with 15 drops so used 15 drops- not sure whether to use measurement of drops when it first changes color or gets deeper/truer in color?)

CH = 70-90PPM

(again turned light blue at 7 drops but got darker blue at 9 drops - not sure to use measurement when it first changes color or when it gets deep in color?)

CYA = 53PPM

Chlorine = 4.5PPM

CC = 1PPM

I tested Free Chloring again today and it's at 1.5ppm (24 hours later) so I believe my chlorine demand is 66%? Is this normal for a Spa equipped with an Ozonator?

I entered the TA and PH from above on the Pool Calculator and it said to add .6oz by volume dry acid (Sodium Bisulfate). Is this right? It seems I usually add way more PH down to lower my tubs PH and TA?

[waterbear]

I made an error in calculating FC and CC. Updated results from yesterday are below:

* Spa temp is 97 degrees and my fill is about 1 week old. Balanced initial fill using test strips and PH Down, Metal-X and Sani-Spa (Dichlor. Spa has Ozonator

TA = 150PPM

(sample turned light pink at 14 drops and got darker with 15 drops so used 15 drops- not sure whether to use measurement of drops when it first changes color or gets deeper/truer in color?)

Keep adding drops until one more drop produces no further change and then do not count the last drop that produced no more color change. Example, if you added a 16th drop and there was no more color change then don't count the 16th drop. You would have 15 drops and, with a 25 ml sample, that would be 150 ppm TA (and about 70-80 ppm high).

CH = 70-90PPM (nope, it's NEVER a range with the Taylor kit! Precision is to 10 ppm!)

(again turned light blue at 7 drops but got darker blue at 9 drops - not sure to use measurement when it first changes color or when it gets deep in color?)

Keep adding drops until one more drop produces no further change and then do not count the last drop that produced no more color change. Example, if you added a 10th drop and there was no more color change then don't count the 10th drop. You would have 9 drops and, with a 25 ml sample, that would be 90 ppm CH (and about 40 ppm low).

CYA = 53PPM

How did you get this number? The scale is not linear but logarithmic! Just call it 50 ppm!

Chlorine = 4.5PPM

CC = 1PPM

I tested Free Chloring again today and it's at 1.5ppm (24 hours later) so I believe my chlorine demand is 66%? Is this normal for a Spa equipped with an Ozonator?

Ozone destroys chlorine and vice versa. NOT a fan of ozone in a chlorine spa.

I entered the TA and PH from above on the Pool Calculator and it said to add .6oz by volume dry acid (Sodium Bisulfate). Is this right? It seems I usually add way more PH down to lower my tubs PH and TA?

Are you trying to lower pH or TA? You need more acid to lower TA than you do pH. Not sure where you go that number from since you did not give a pH reading but if you are trying to lower pH then just use the acid demand test in your kit (by the pool calculator .6 oz by weight of dry acid will lower the pH by .2 when TA is at 150 ppm but the acid demand test is more accurate!). IF you are trying to lower TA the use the acid demand test to drop the pH to 7.2 and aerate the water to bring the pH back up and repeat until the TA is where you want it. Each time you lower pH and aerate you lower TA. Read this for more info.

[Venams]

Thanks Waterbear. My bad. I forgot to add my PH.

PH = 7.8 so I was trying to lower the PH and TA and plugged my known values into the Pool Calculator.

I will run my test again and then do acid demand test to determine amount needed. So a few more questions Please..

1) I bought Borax but not sure if I need to add or how much?

2) Also I have Anhydrous Calcium Chloride (Prestone driveway heat). Should I add that to bring up the CH levels?

3) You mentioned Ozone counters Chlorine. What should I do then? Switch to Bromine (not crazy since I bought the Taylor Chlorine Kit and all 3 tubs I've had have been equipped with Ozone and the spa store recommends chlorine with them?)

[waterbear]

Thanks Waterbear. My bad. I forgot to add my PH.

PH = 7.8 so I was trying to lower the PH and TA and plugged my known values into the Pool Calculator.

Lower TA first then adjust pH. Chances are the pH will be too low so just aearte to bring it up after lowering TA.

I will run my test again and then do acid demand test to determine amount needed. So a few more questions Please..

Use the demand test to drop pH to 7.0, aerate to bring pH up above 7.4, test TA and if high repeat until TA is on target. You will find that as the TA falls you will need less and less acid to drop the pH to 7.0. This is normal.

1) I bought Borax but not sure if I need to add or how much?

Once everything is balanced you can add the borax to help stabilize the pH. You will also need to get a tube of LaMotte Borate test strips (Get the Lamotte ones over other brands since they are easier to read!) Should cost in the neighborhood of $10. You will need to add borax and acid together to maintain the pH. Don't add borax until your TA is in line! When you are ready we can walk you through it.

2) Also I have Anhydrous Calcium Chloride (Prestone driveway heat). Should I add that to bring up the CH levels?

Should be fine. I have never used the Prestone product but from reading the MSDS (and the reviews of it on the reef aqauarium sites) it looks like it is a low bromine calcium chloride much like the Tetra calcium chloride I normally use. Dowflake is acceptable for pool and spa use (but not for reed aquarium use) even though it does have a higher bromide content. The bromine will eventually be destroyed by sunlight and ozone. Any of these are MUCH cheaper than the calcium chloride sold for pool/spa use and actually are the same thing. Just realize that anhydrous (without water) calcium chloride requres less by weight than the dihydrate form.

3) You mentioned Ozone counters Chlorine. What should I do then? Switch to Bromine (not crazy since I bought the Taylor Chlorine Kit and all 3 tubs I've had have been equipped with Ozone and the spa store recommends chlorine with them?)

No, just be aware of this fact and that, because of the ozone, you might actually have a higher chlorine demand than without it. IF you use the spa daily ozone will probably work to your advantage by oxidizing organics and therefore lowering the chlorine demand somewhat (even though it is destroying some of the chlorine it will leave more chlorine available since the chlorine does not need to 'work as hard' to oxidize organics in the water).

IF you use the spa less often you will probably see a higher chlorine demand to replace the chlorine that the ozone destroys.

Not really a big deal if you are aware of it.

[Venams]

OK.

I added about 1/2 cup anhydrous Calcium (prestone driveway heat) to bump CH to about 150ppm first.

Then I used ph demand test to show 8 drops of acid needed to take PH to 7.0 as you advised. Bought some Muriatic and per the chart in Taylor book added about 3.5 ounces (for approx. 485 gallons) and ran jets for 20 mins.

Retested:

TA = 120ppm

PH = 7.7PPM

did another acid demand and this time 5 drops to get to PH of 7.0. Added another 2 ounces per Taylor table and will check in another 20 mins.

Is this the right approach?

[chem geek]

Yes, that is how you lower the TA. Keep at it. It shouldn't take too many more iterations to get to your target. If you want to, you can test and add acid after a shorter period of time. The pH will not have risen as much, but the process will go a bit faster because the faster outgassing occurs when the pH is lower.

[Venams]

OK Waterbear.

Next iteration got the TA down to 90ppm and PH was 7.5 Perfect.

Do I need to worry about Borax and what should I do next if anything?

[waterbear]

OK Waterbear.

Next iteration got the TA down to 90ppm and PH was 7.5 Perfect.

Because of your high copper levels I would drop the TA down to about 70 ppm and make sure the pH does not rise aboel 7.8 at any time. This will help prevent staining (but hair might still turn green). Rememver to dose weekly or every two weeks with metal seqestrant at the maintenance dose level.

Do I need to worry about Borax and what should I do next if anything?

I would add the borax since it will help stabilize the pH even more and that will help prevent staining. It also makes the water 'feel' much nicer! Once you have the LaMotte borax test strips post in this thread and we can take it from there.

In your size spa you will add 3 level cups borax and 1 1/2 cups muriatic acid to get to 50 ppm (not exact but close enough to get you in the ballpark and keep measuring easy).

Dump in the borax and then slowly pour in the acid with the jets running. Let them run for about 30 min to an hour.

Readjust pH after 24-48 hours.

Usually, borax and acid only needs to be added on each fill snce you want to maintain borates between 30-50 ppm. However if the level does drop below 30 ppm before your next fill you will want to bump it up to around 50 ppm again. For maintenance when borates drop from splashout and topping off you will add 2/3 level cup of borax and 2.5 oz of muriatic acid for every 10 ppm borate increase needed. If you need to bring it up 20 ppm then use 1 1/4 level cups borax and 2/3 cup acid, once again rounding to make measurements easier. (Add with jets running. Once again ,this will get you close enough for government work! Check pH and adjust if needed after 24-48 hours.) You do not need to worry about increasing borates as long as they stay above 30 ppm.

Maintain TA at 60-70 ppm. pH no lower than 7.6 (the lower the pH the faster it rises) and no higher than 7.8 to help prevent staining because of the metals in your water (soon you will realize that you need about the same amount of acid each time to drop the pH back to 7.6 when it climbs above 7.8 so it's not as hard as it seems).

Remember to keep up with the maintenance doses of metal sequestrant.

It's a little more work than someone with no metal in the water but not bad really.

[Venams]

In your size spa you will add 3 level cups borax and 1 1/2 cups muriatic acid to get to 50 ppm (not exact but close enough to get you in the ballpark and keep measuring easy).

Dump in the borax and then slowly pour in the acid with the jets running. Let them run for about 30 min to an hour.

Readjust pH after 24-48 hours.

Waterbear;

Won't the 1 1/2 cups Muriatic drop my PH and ALK since they are basically balanced in my tub right now?

[chem geek]

Won't the 1 1/2 cups Muriatic drop my PH and ALK since they are basically balanced in my tub right now?

20 Mule Team Borax is basic so would increase the pH and TA. The Muriatic Acid compensates for that. If you prefer to increase borates by adding a single product that is close to pH neutral, then you can use boric acid such as found in ProTeam® Gentle Spa, but that is more expensive (though for spa quantities, not that much).

[Venams]

Won't the 1 1/2 cups Muriatic drop my PH and ALK since they are basically balanced in my tub right now?

20 Mule Team Borax is basic so would increase the pH and TA. The Muriatic Acid compensates for that. If you prefer to increase borates by adding a single product that is close to pH neutral, then you can use boric acid such as found in ProTeam® Gentle Spa, but that is more expensive (though for spa quantities, not that much).

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. Waiting on my Lamotte Borate test strips!

[Venams]

Just received my Borax test strips.

Should I test the water first or just add your recommened amount (3 cups borax, 1.5 cups Muriatic) and then test?

[waterbear]

If you want to waste a strip you can test it but you should not have any borate in your water. Even if you added some borax for pH control the amount is going to be negligible.

[Venams]

Cool. Just added the recommended amounts.

Will test tomorrow.