JimKW Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I have been reading about itching and it's making me itch I guess. But I have been scratching a good bit and was just blaming in on dry skin, but I acutally have some scabs from scratching my lower legs. After reading a thread on here just now, I think I want to try some Boric Acid in my hot tub. I have a 483 gal Sundance Optima and I use the Dichlor/Bleach method. I have no trouble whatsover keeping everything close to perfect. I do have the Taylor Drop Test kit and I use test strips occasionally also just to check my chlorine level. What kind and how much Boric Acid should I use and where is the best place to get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKW Posted March 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 OK I guess I found the answer by just looking a little further and found the Pool Calculator in another thread. Says I should us 11 oz by weight or 12 oz by volume. Now I just need to find some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 You can use ProTeam® Gentle Spa or you can get it directly from The Chemistry Store or from AAA Chemicals. The least expensive is to use 20 Mule Team Borax and acid, but that's more complicated and given the relatively small volumes needed, boric acid is not only convenient but not that much to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKW Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Are there any stores that carry it? I don't have a problem paying $13 for something, but when they add another $10 for shipping that makes it kind of ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Some spa stores should have ProTeam Gentle Spa. It's also in BioGuard Optimizer Plus, but that's in larger sizes for pools (as is ProTeam Supreme Plus). If you can't find it anywhere, then you can certainly get 20 Mule Team Borax from your grocery store and Muriatic Acid from your hardware store and add these separately alternating back and forth adding some acid, then some Borax, then more acid, then more Borax, until you've added the required amounts. Or you could take a large bucket you fill with spa water and then use that to add the Borax and acid, then stir, and then add to the spa (i.e. essentially making your own boric acid solution). The Pool Calculator will tell you the quantities needed of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKW Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Stopped at the local Spa Dealer on the way home, got on her computer showed her this thread and she had the ProTeam Gentle Spa on the shelf for $14. So I got it for $14 plus tax instead of $10 for shipping. Just added 12 oz to my tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I got mine online. 5 lbs for $27 shipping included. Spa and Pool Depot. com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKW Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 How often should I add more? The instructions say how much to use, but it does not say how often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 You add borates once. They will stay in your tub until you dump the water. Add again on fresh fill. BTW I just picked up a 40 lb bag of pool salt for $8, should last years. Add to 1500 ppm, should help with skin issues as well. I am on my way to my first soak in it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 You add borates once. They will stay in your tub until you dump the water. Add again on fresh fill. Not quite true! You add more borates when the level drops below 30 ppm. You need to test to know when that happens. Period! You can also pick up a tube of LaMotte Borate Test strips (they are the easiest ones to read, most of the other brands have a color change in very similar shades of tan.) You want your borates between 30-50 ppm and the strips provide enough resolution to achieve this. Borates only need to be tested about once every two week to monthly. You might be surprised at how fast they need to be replenished in a tub because of splash out and topping off. FWIW, Gentle Spais not boric acid but is the pentahydrate form of borax and a "proprietary ingredient" to keep it pH neutal, which is probably either dry acid or boric acid. (Link is to MSDS from Proteam website.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Interesting. Chem Geek signed off on the gentel spa so that was good enough for me. If you started at a level of 50 ppm it would seem you would have to loose about 40% of the water to top off or splash out to drop the level to 30 ppm. I guess that could happen if you are able to keep your fill for 6 months. My statement was generalized to my situation, I have to change my water out every 2 months or sooner due to a 200 gal tub and splash out is not an issue as I am the only one using the tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Proteam Gentle Spa is mostly boric acid. They only use enough sodium tetraborate pentahydrate to make the pH closer to neutral. If you look at their dosing instructions, it's pretty obvious that the product has to be boric acid -- otherwise you wouldn't get nearly enough borates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Chem Geek signed off on the gentel spa so that was good enough for me. Gentle Spa is an excellent product, used to sell a lot of it when I worked in retail end of business (We were a Proteam dealer.) Only complaint was it clumping into a hard lump in the jar in the Florida humidity. Borax clumps, not sure if boric acid does, however. I know that the original Proteam Supreme used to clump and the Supreme Plus (which is mostly boric acid) did not clump as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yep, my exact observations. Not much humidity in California but lots of rain now. My borax does clump up but the supream plus is granulated very fine and seems like it would not clump up. I need to get my borax out of the box and into a ziplock bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyboy Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 I too am considering adding Borates. I have a large quantity of 5.4% Boric acid solution leftover from a job at work. and it is neatly packaged in 300ml bottles. I couldn't find diluted Boric acid mixing ratios on the pool calculator soo I plugged the formula in to the chlorine field calling it 5.4% bleach with a requested amount of 30ppm at 380 gallons. It said to add 777 ml 5.4% bleach (which I will substitute for my 5.4% Boric acid) to get the desired 30ppm. Is my logic flawed or should this work to tell me how much to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 I too am considering adding Borates. I have a large quantity of 5.4% Boric acid solution leftover from a job at work. and it is neatly packaged in 300ml bottles. I couldn't find diluted Boric acid mixing ratios on the pool calculator soo I plugged the formula in to the chlorine field calling it 5.4% bleach with a requested amount of 30ppm at 380 gallons. It said to add 777 ml 5.4% bleach (which I will substitute for my 5.4% Boric acid) to get the desired 30ppm. Is my logic flawed or should this work to tell me how much to add? What is in the other 96.4 % of the bottle. It would be simpler and cheap enough to get a box of borax and some acid then the pool calculator will work. As to your question, I'm not sure. I know borates are measured in ppm boron. My guess would be your calculations are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 If your boric acid solution is just boric acid in water, then you can use The Pool Calculator set for Boric Acid and then multiply the weight by 1/(5.4/100) = 18.5 for the weight of your boric acid solution you will need. I'll bet you don't have enough, but you never know. Also, it should only have water in it -- I'm concerned that the solution might have something else as it's probably used as an eyewash. For example, for a 350 gallon spa, to get to 50 ppm Borates it takes 15 ounces weight boric acid so that would be 15*18.5 = 278 ounces weight of your solution. Since the solution is mostly water, this is roughly 290 ounces of solution or 8600 milliliters (8.6 liters). Like I said, I don't think you have enough solution unless you've got lots of these bottles. You can't use the bleach calculations. Borates are measured as ppm Boron but boric acid weighs 5.7 times more so 50 ppm borates is actually a lot of boric acid and your solutions are quite weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyboy Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 If your boric acid solution is just boric acid in water, then you can use The Pool Calculator set for Boric Acid and then multiply the weight by 1/(5.4/100) = 18.5 for the weight of your boric acid solution you will need. I'll bet you don't have enough, but you never know. Also, it should only have water in it -- I'm concerned that the solution might have something else as it's probably used as an eyewash. For example, for a 350 gallon spa, to get to 50 ppm Borates it takes 15 ounces weight boric acid so that would be 15*18.5 = 278 ounces weight of your solution. Since the solution is mostly water, this is roughly 290 ounces of solution or 8600 milliliters (8.6 liters). Like I said, I don't think you have enough solution unless you've got lots of these bottles. You can't use the bleach calculations. Borates are measured as ppm Boron but boric acid weighs 5.7 times more so 50 ppm borates is actually a lot of boric acid and your solutions are quite weak. Thanks for the explination. I'm guessing my solution is simply Boric acid in water as it was used for parts cleaner-not eyewash. I do have several bottles of the stuff but I think I will use the borax and muriatic acid I already have as that is a proven method. Thanks again for the quick reply and the clear description of the flaws in my logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyboy Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 One more question: can I dump in all the borax at once and then the acid or do I have to go in several small doses of each? Should I manufacture my Boric acid in a bucket with some spa water and then dump it in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Best to go in 2-3 stages, especially if you're alternating borax with acid, to avoid pH swings that would harm your tub. I have mixed a batch of borax + acid in a bucket, but I'm not clear it's really a recommended thing to do. Offhand it ought to just make the bucket contents pH-neutral, which is why I was willing to do it, but I'm no chem expert. --paulr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 The bucket approach is perfectly fine. You are essentially making boric acid and as you point out that's close to pH neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footie Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Firstly, what are the benefits of using boric acid in your tub? Secondly, can I use boric acid with a bromine chemical spa? And thirdly, where can I get it in the UK because on every pool/spa site I look up over here they only offer pH raiser and reducer, TA raiser and Hardness raiser, nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy and Scratchy Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Borates are a must for my tub. IMO they make a HUGE difference in the feel of the water. The best way I can describe it is a softer, silky feel. I also add salt to 1500 ppm and my tub feels like a mineral bath to me. Some might argue that this feel is ambiguous but another benefit that is pure chemistry is borates ability to prevent PH drift making your tub more easy to manage. You don't need PH up products Borax is much cheaper and if added w/o acid will raise PH. In the states borates are sold as the products previously mentioned above. I don't know why more spa chemical manufactures do not put borates on the market. All the better anyways as they would charge $60 for $6 worth of chemical. I think in your case it might be easier to find Borax. It should be it the laundry isle of most stores as it is a laundry detergent booster that can be used for various purposes around the home. You would also need some dry or muratic acid and the pool calculator and you would be on your way. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footie Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 But if Borax is a laundry detergent booster does that not mean it will add foam to your tub? Also, adding salt, does this not effect the corrosion of the pumps etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I don't know if it's offered in the U.K., but ProTeam® Gentle Spa is mostly boric acid. If that's not available, then see if there is any borax product in the U.K. similar to 20 Mule Team Borax though that will require acid to be added (i.e. the two mixed in a bucket of water) to essentially create boric acid. You can get high purity boric acid in the U.K. from chemical supply companies such as from ReAgent. You can use borates in a bromine spa. It isn't usually as necessary from a pH control point of view because bromine tabs are acidic (assuming you are using the 3-step bromine method), but if you are using the 2-step bromine method shocking by using chlorine or if you have a chlorine spa using a hypochlorite source of chlorine (e.g. bleach, after initial Dichlor), then the borates are very helpful in slowing down the rate of pH rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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