New Tub, Can't Get Balance

[Bularae]

I've got a new tub and from the get-go last week when I added Leisure Time's Renew & Reserve system, I can't get the Ph down. It was high with just plain water and I have done a full program, added the stuff to bring Calcium up and finally TA came into ideal range after a few days of low bromine readings, but the Ph hasn't budged from the bright pink end of the stick. I have used almost a whole bottle of Spa Down for lowering Ph, and done it by dissolving it in filtered water first (recommended to dissolve it first).

Can anyone help me with how I can lower Ph when TA is right-on? I'm not really grasping how TA can be fine but Ph off the charts cuz until now I thought Ph was a measure of Alkalinity vs. Acidic.

Thanks

[waterbear]

I've got a new tub and from the get-go last week when I added Leisure Time's Renew & Reserve system, I can't get the Ph down. It was high with just plain water and I have done a full program, added the stuff to bring Calcium up and finally TA came into ideal range after a few days of low bromine readings, but the Ph hasn't budged from the bright pink end of the stick. I have used almost a whole bottle of Spa Down for lowering Ph, and done it by dissolving it in filtered water first (recommended to dissolve it first).

Can anyone help me with how I can lower Ph when TA is right-on? I'm not really grasping how TA can be fine but Ph off the charts cuz until now I thought Ph was a measure of Alkalinity vs. Acidic.

Thanks

First problem is that you are using strips. Get a Taylor k-2106 test kit for bromine.

Second, how high is the bromine. High sanitizer levels can cause interference with the pH test and make it read high when it is not.

Third, TA is actually a measure of the amount of carbonation in the water (bicarbonates and carbonic acid). Other names for TA are Carbonate Alkalinity or Carbonate hardness. This carbonation helps regulate pH but it is very possible for pH to be high or low when the TA is in proper range. .

You are doing a 2 step bromine system using MPS as an oxidizer so you want to have your TA between 70-90 ppm. If you were doing a three step bromine (also using tabs in a floater in addition to the sodium bromide and oxidizer) then the TA should be a bit higher. If you pH is 8.0 or less then that is not too high for bromine, btw.

However, if your bromine is above 8 ppm then you are probably seeing the interference I spoke of above, particularly with strips.

[Bularae]

Thanks!

Actually after I did initial Bromine (Reserve & Renew) it was 10+ but then after I used it the next day the Bromine went to nothing and still is. I inquired to Leisure Time and they said that is normal for the Bromine, TA and Ph to be high after shock and it settles down afer a day or two, which everything did except Ph.

I don't really understand why the strips are sold and so popular if they don't work.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Strips sometimes are not as accurate, moisture, age amoung other factors will effect them. To get water in balance, you need a good test kit which is very accurate if used right. The strips can be used for in between checks ( i use them just to check sanitizer levels quick) but if you water chemistry is off, to get it right you really need a test kit. Lowerering your PH will also lower the ALk. Raising the Alk will raise the PH again. Lower your PH to where it belongs, then give us a list of each of the readings and we can offer help to get you adjusted.

[waterbear]

Thanks!

Actually after I did initial Bromine (Reserve & Renew) it was 10+ but then after I used it the next day the Bromine went to nothing and still is. I inquired to Leisure Time and they said that is normal for the Bromine, TA and Ph to be high after shock and it settles down afer a day or two, which everything did except Ph.

I don't really understand why the strips are sold and so popular if they don't work.

First. you are using what is known as two step bromine. It is normal for the bromine to be high after shocking. That is what shocking is. Two step bromine works better if you have an ozonator since the bromine levels stay more constant. Three step bromine will provide more constant bromine levels without an ozonator (and with one too, which is why I prefer it. It is much less work than two step bromine. TA is not affected by shocking and pH can read high when it is not because of chemical interference to the test. Strips are easy but not reliable. The produce readings like you are seeing that are bogus. IF your TA goes up and then drops with bromine level it is a bogus reading from the strip. pH WILL do that from chemical interference but TA should not.

People buy strips because they seem easy (just dip and read) and they seem inexpensive but the reality is that they are not easy,do not have the resolution to provide meaning test results, and end up costing more in the long run and taking more time since they give undependable readings and make it more difficult to balance the water.

[Bularae]

Thanks!

Actually after I did initial Bromine (Reserve & Renew) it was 10+ but then after I used it the next day the Bromine went to nothing and still is. I inquired to Leisure Time and they said that is normal for the Bromine, TA and Ph to be high after shock and it settles down afer a day or two, which everything did except Ph.

I don't really understand why the strips are sold and so popular if they don't work.

First. you are using what is known as two step bromine. It is normal for the bromine to be high after shocking. That is what shocking is. Two step bromine works better if you have an ozonator since the bromine levels stay more constant. Three step bromine will provide more constant bromine levels without an ozonator (and with one too, which is why I prefer it. It is much less work than two step bromine. TA is not affected by shocking and pH can read high when it is not because of chemical interference to the test. Strips are easy but not reliable. The produce readings like you are seeing that are bogus. IF your TA goes up and then drops with bromine level it is a bogus reading from the strip. pH WILL do that from chemical interference but TA should not.

People buy strips because they seem easy (just dip and read) and they seem inexpensive but the reality is that they are not easy,do not have the resolution to provide meaning test results, and end up costing more in the long run and taking more time since they give undependable readings and make it more difficult to balance the water.

Thanks. Yes, the tub has an Ozonator. I ordered a Taylor test kit today. My gut feeling has been that the Ph reading is innacurate, as I have definitely seen the TA change and be stable. The kit should be here on Friday so I'll report back. Thanks again for your guys' support. I really appreciate it!! My local spa store people suck so I'm really on my own here!

[waterbear]

so I'm really on my own here!

No you are not. That is why we are here!

[Bularae]

HI there!

Well, I didn't get the kit till Monday and didn't get to using it and dealing with it until yesterday and today.

After yesterday I printed out your Bromine protocol and took it to Home Depot, bought bromine tabs and a floater, Bleach and Baking soda.

I used the last of my Reserve from LT yesterday as my Bromine readings were 0 and when I added Renew it was 0 this morning and I'm about out of that also (that's basically two bottles of their stuff gone in two uses/weeks). So that's why I decided to go with the tabs and floater and when I refill I'll get Sodium Bromide from Home Depot.

Anyway, I've just followed all your instructions, added bleach and got 10+ readings on Bromine, ran the jets for 20 mins and am about to let it sit for the day and test tonight before hopefully using it.

My Ph is still a little high--looks like it's pink right between 7.8 and 8.0 and in your protocol you say with Bromine that's acceptable, is that correct?

If I do need to lower Ph, what exactly is "acid powder" in OTC form? That's the only thing I'm missing from your great instructions.

Also, I'm curious your opinion/expertise/advice on the benefits of getting a spa stick for next time I fill as my water has so many minerals and stuff in it? Do they work? Is it worth it? Will it make my water feel better and be easier to balance and maintain?

Thanks!! Here's a bear hug... ((((Waterbear)))))

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

HI there!

Well, I didn't get the kit till Monday and didn't get to using it and dealing with it until yesterday and today.

After yesterday I printed out your Bromine protocol and took it to Home Depot, bought bromine tabs and a floater, Bleach and Baking soda.

I used the last of my Reserve from LT yesterday as my Bromine readings were 0 and when I added Renew it was 0 this morning and I'm about out of that also (that's basically two bottles of their stuff gone in two uses/weeks). So that's why I decided to go with the tabs and floater and when I refill I'll get Sodium Bromide from Home Depot.

Anyway, I've just followed all your instructions, added bleach and got 10+ readings on Bromine, ran the jets for 20 mins and am about to let it sit for the day and test tonight before hopefully using it.

My Ph is still a little high--looks like it's pink right between 7.8 and 8.0 and in your protocol you say with Bromine that's acceptable, is that correct?

If I do need to lower Ph, what exactly is "acid powder" in OTC form? That's the only thing I'm missing from your great instructions.

Also, I'm curious your opinion/expertise/advice on the benefits of getting a spa stick for next time I fill as my water has so many minerals and stuff in it? Do they work? Is it worth it? Will it make my water feel better and be easier to balance and maintain?

Thanks!! Here's a bear hug... ((((Waterbear)))))

if you tested the water right after shocking it, you readings won't be accurate, you must wait at least 2 -4 hours for accurate PH, overnight will tell you what the bromine demand.

nature 2 is the most common mineral stick, different minerals than what your fill water has (if your fill water has a lot of minerals, this will also chew up the bromine, you may need to use a metal remover or pre filter). it has its benifits for people who want a low chlorine alternative, but is a bit more costly and has to be followed to work properly. bromine is the easiest for spa IMO, and very cost effective.

[waterbear]

My Ph is still a little high--looks like it's pink right between 7.8 and 8.0 and in your protocol you say with Bromine that's acceptable, is that correct?

Correct.

If I do need to lower Ph, what exactly is "acid powder" in OTC form? That's the only thing I'm missing from your great instructions.

Dry acid is the chemical known as sodium bisulfate. It forms sulfuric acid when dissolved in water. You can get it as pH down. pH-, pH decreaser, etc. at the big box stores, pool/spa supplies, hardware stores that sell pool/spa supplies, etc. You can also use muriatic acid BUT because of the very small quantities needed in the small amount of water in a spa it is much harder to measure, very easy to overdose, and not as 'nice' to work with (fumes are nasty) so I would strongly recommend getting the dry acid.

Also, I'm curious your opinion/expertise/advice on the benefits of getting a spa stick for next time I fill as my water has so many minerals and stuff in it? Do they work? Is it worth it? Will it make my water feel better and be easier to balance and maintain?

If you mean the spa stick pre-filter that fits on the end of your garden hose and has 'green sand' or another ion exchange resin inside, they are useful if you know your fill water has problematic metals that can cause staining (iron, copper, or manganese). They work very well but they are a bit pricey! IF you have a home water softener system you can fill with softened water because this will also remove the metals. If your fill water does not have metals you don't need to worry about it.

Thanks!! Here's a bear hug... ((((Waterbear)))))

And a Tardigrade hug back at ya!

[PFC5]

HI there!

Well, I didn't get the kit till Monday and didn't get to using it and dealing with it until yesterday and today.

After yesterday I printed out your Bromine protocol and took it to Home Depot, bought bromine tabs and a floater, Bleach and Baking soda.

I used the last of my Reserve from LT yesterday as my Bromine readings were 0 and when I added Renew it was 0 this morning and I'm about out of that also (that's basically two bottles of their stuff gone in two uses/weeks). So that's why I decided to go with the tabs and floater and when I refill I'll get Sodium Bromide from Home Depot.

Anyway, I've just followed all your instructions, added bleach and got 10+ readings on Bromine, ran the jets for 20 mins and am about to let it sit for the day and test tonight before hopefully using it.

My Ph is still a little high--looks like it's pink right between 7.8 and 8.0 and in your protocol you say with Bromine that's acceptable, is that correct?

If I do need to lower Ph, what exactly is "acid powder" in OTC form? That's the only thing I'm missing from your great instructions.

Also, I'm curious your opinion/expertise/advice on the benefits of getting a spa stick for next time I fill as my water has so many minerals and stuff in it? Do they work? Is it worth it? Will it make my water feel better and be easier to balance and maintain?

Thanks!! Here's a bear hug... ((((Waterbear)))))

I had the same problem with using a 3 step bromine system on my first fill, and I could not hold a bromine level and shocking it or even adding MPS or chlorine would always bring it back up high because the bromide gets converted back to bromine after the oxidizer is put in. I changed over to the dichlor/chlorine bleach method and it is much better with crystal clear water now, but I think the problem was the biomass that was left over from the mfg and the wet tests they did at the factory that just kept demanding more bromine to oxidize them. I did a spa purge and refilled along with changing over and everything is fine now. The problem must have been from the new pipes leaching and water/biomass left in the pipes after they tested it for leaks at the factory. I may go back to try the bromine again come spring when I can change the water easier than with over 2' of snow in the yard.

So you may want to do a spa purge and a new fill. It is much cheaper than to continually keep adding chems to the spa trying to fix it that way. It worked for me but I spent something like $80.00+ for chemicals before I realized this even happened with new spas (or spas left sitting for a while with water still in the pipes). You might want to try that.

[Bularae]

Thanks. Yeah, I had to actually flush it when I got it cuz it was shipped with Antifreeze in the lines, but even still, I suspect(ed) that it's more about the initial fill. Plus my water here is terrible. I actually finally got everything within acceptable ranges as of yesterday. We'll see if I can maintain it. If our weather would stabilize enough to give me a few days of sunshine, I'd definitely consider draining and refilling cuz as it stands I've spent about $200 on chemicals and only had the thing about 25 days!! Yikes!! But I think I'm pretty good now with Bromine floater and tabs, Granules for shocking and then all the other stuff I got when I bought the Leisure Time startup kit.

[PFC5]

You would think that dealers would explain more of this so people do not waste time & money fighting low free chlorine or bromine levels on the first fill. You spent more than I did to come to the same conclusion, but it would be nice if we were told this up front. That is why these forums are great! Make sure you add something like SPA METAL FREE to remove the metals. I used SPA PURGE to purge my spa after the initial fill.

I wonder if some dealers do not tell new spa owners about this so they can sell a years supply of chems in 1 month. I use a disposable filter called Artic Pure Silver Sentinel 1 micron filter in my spa right now for the winter months so I do not have to deal with cleaning the filter every 2 weeks in snow and then drain the hose to keep it from freezing and still have a skating rink in the yard. I do not think they work as good as they claim, but after a month I still have not had to clean the filter and the water is clear. If I can make it until the end of march I will be happy. If you have cold weather issues with cleaning your filter you might want to consider this as well. I bought 3 of them for $65.00 from a member at www.highdefforum.com where I am a mod. I think they cost a little more than that normally, but worth it to remove the extra hassles winter creates to make cleaning the filter a royal pain. They are supposed to last 4-6 months but I will likely change it out within 4 months depending on the condition then.