Bad Dealer Advice - Chemicals/water Messed Up

[coursonb]

I'm a first time hot tub owner and a complete newbie when it comes to all of the chemicals involved in maintaining a spa. My dealer set me up with a supply of chemicals and gave me quick advice on what to do for the next couple weeks before he would give me more thorough advice. I now have greenish/yellowish water and yellowish speckles around the jets and water line on the tub.

I searched the forums and have a decent list of chemical threads that I've been reading through. I'm finding great advice on starting up and maintaining the chemicals and hope to have better results in the future. For now, I'm wondering if I need to start all over.

SPA: I have a Jacuzzi J470

Here's what has been done:

1)Dealer set up tub, filled with hot water but had a service issue. I believe he dropped some so-called bromine tabs into a floating container and told me not to get into the tub and that he would correct the issue when he came back to service the tub. I believe now that the tabs are CHLORINE but I'm not positive. The container is ProTeam Sanitizer 1" Pure Tabs (slow dissolving stabilizing chlorinating tabs).

2)Dealer came back about a week and a half later, fixed the problem, and said he set up all of the start up chemicals and that the tub was ready to use. Water quality looked clean.

3)He told me to check the tub occasionally and put in some more "bromine" tabs.

4)I check the tub after a few days of non-use, and 1-1/2 weeks after the spa was serviced and I was finally able to get into it. The water is yellow/greenish and there are speckles along the water line. There is an orange/yellowish film along the outside of the jets.

5)I use a test strip and the results are:

Hardness: Ok (250-ish)

Bromine: Very low (0 to 1)

ph: Ok (around 7.2ish)

Alkalinity: low (40ish)

Is this a lost cause? The spa is on a rooftop deck and is difficult to drain.

[coursonb]

Here are the chemicals and items I was given:

Pro Team Sky Blue Clarifier

Pro Team Gentle Spa

Pro Team Oxidizing Shock

Pro Team pH Down

Pro Team ph Up

Pro Team Foam Fighter

Pro Team Sanitizer, 1" Pure Tabs (chlorine)

Aquachek Spa and Pool Test Strips

Floating Dispenser

I am supposed to have an ozonator as well, but I have not received it from the company yet.

[PFC5]

I started out with bromine with my tub but I couldn't keep a good level of bromine in the water and couldn't keep the water crystal clear either. I started out by putting bromIDE in as the base and whenever I shocked it with Dichlor chlorine to activate the bromide to bromine it would jump way up so there was plenty of reserve of Bromide, but even with 3 tabs of bromine in the floater opened up to 8 on the measuring levels on the floater we could not keep a reserve of bromine in it. I read about the cloudy water issues and that it usually meant there was not enough sanitizer in it, but I just could not hold enough steadily in it.

So I read about the Dichlor/bleach method here and my water is crystal clear now. It is cheaper to sanitize and a pretty simple system.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

First, you are not using bromine, you are using chlorine, and these tabs are not good for the tub. The are way to strong (i am guessing they are tri-chlor) and the Ph will run way to low on the tub. Bromine works great on tubs, but since they gave you the wrong tabs, you are off to a bad start. bring them back and request bromine tabs.

The orange/yellow in the tub may be metals that were in your water. You may need to use a pre-filter when filling or a metal remover. Sticky gooey stuff is either A: contaminants such as soap, laundry detergent, lotion ect that your brought into the tub, or B: if this is a new tub, the plastics will release a bunch of "goo" for about the first month. We always suggest people drain and refill after a month on new hot tubs. Clean your filters frequently the first month also.

you also should get a good test kit from taylor to get accurate readings of the water. Test strips are ok for quick, or in between readings, but for true readings you need a test kit.

Water bear has a greate write up on bromine, IMO bromine is the easiest for newbies

[waterbear]

First, you are not using bromine, you are using chlorine, and these tabs are not good for the tub. The are way to strong (i am guessing they are tri-chlor) and the Ph will run way to low on the tub.

Correct, the Proteam 1" tabs are trichlor and not suitable for spa use at all, IMHO.

Proteam does make bromine tabs. It is a good line, IMHO. Then again I used to sell it when I worked in the retail end of the industry.

[coursonb]

First, you are not using bromine, you are using chlorine, and these tabs are not good for the tub. The are way to strong (i am guessing they are tri-chlor) and the Ph will run way to low on the tub.

Correct, the Proteam 1" tabs are trichlor and not suitable for spa use at all, IMHO.

Proteam does make bromine tabs. It is a good line, IMHO. Then again I used to sell it when I worked in the retail end of the industry.

I wish I had read this thread a little earlier today. Here is what was recommended that I followed through with:

Shock the system with the ProTeam Oxidizing Shock and run the jets. Then, make sure to maintain at least 6 chlorinating tabs in the floater...making sure to average about 4 tabs at all times. Check the spa every 2-3 days.

I was originally given testing strips that don't test Chlorine, but show Bromine instead. Apparently, I just noticed they were expired as of 3 months ago as well. I was told that I could have some free additional chemicals, including granular chlorine and pH increase and pH minus. I will also be given the ozonator I was promised upon the initial delivery.

The water appears to have improved but it is currently dark out and I really can't get a good look until tomorrow. It appears to have improved slightly on the testing strips.

If I choose to switch to bromine in the future, do I need to drain the water and start all over? Is that what you would recommend?

[waterbear]

First, you are not using bromine, you are using chlorine, and these tabs are not good for the tub. The are way to strong (i am guessing they are tri-chlor) and the Ph will run way to low on the tub.

Correct, the Proteam 1" tabs are trichlor and not suitable for spa use at all, IMHO.

Proteam does make bromine tabs. It is a good line, IMHO. Then again I used to sell it when I worked in the retail end of the industry.

I wish I had read this thread a little earlier today. Here is what was recommended that I followed through with:

Shock the system with the ProTeam Oxidizing Shock and run the jets. Then, make sure to maintain at least 6 chlorinating tabs in the floater...making sure to average about 4 tabs at all times. Check the spa every 2-3 days.

I was originally given testing strips that don't test Chlorine, but show Bromine instead. Apparently, I just noticed they were expired as of 3 months ago as well. I was told that I could have some free additional chemicals, including granular chlorine and pH increase and pH minus. I will also be given the ozonator I was promised upon the initial delivery.

The water appears to have improved but it is currently dark out and I really can't get a good look until tomorrow. It appears to have improved slightly on the testing strips.

If I choose to switch to bromine in the future, do I need to drain the water and start all over? Is that what you would recommend?

If you decide to switch to bromine all you need to do is add sodium bromide to the water, shock the water with some bleach, and put bromine tabs in your floater.

In any rate, you should not be using the chlorine tabs in your spa, they are made for pools and will dissolve way to fast in the hot waters of a spa and can damage the equipment.

[coursonb]

Thanks a lot for everyone's help so far. Basically, everything that was said has been true with the hot tub. The Chlorine tabs dissolve way too fast and I have trouble maintaining the pH level. I seem to have had some skin irritation/itching as well as a result. Nothing major, but noticeable. After some traveling, and waiting to get in the Taylor test kit and chemicals, I'm now ready to switch over to the Bromine tub.

Here is what I bought. I've never bought 'spa chemicals' from the grocery store before, so I want to make sure I'm on the right track with some of this stuff:

1) Baking Soda (to raise TA): Arm and Hammer Pure Baking Soda, Ingredients: Sodium Bicarbonate

2) Borax (to raise pH): 20 Mule Team Borax, Ingredients: Sodium Tetraborate

3) Sodium Bromide (Bromine reserve): Leisure Time Sodium Bromide, Ingredients: Sodium Bromide (99%), Other (1%)

4) Chlorine (to shock spa): Clorox, Regular Bleach, Ingredients: Sodium Hypochlorite (6%), Other ingredients: 94%); Yields: 5.7% available Chlorine

Test Kit: K2106

Still need to find:

Dry Acid (to raise pH)

Thoughts? Do I have the right stuff?

[PoolSpaGuy30]

Thanks a lot for everyone's help so far. Basically, everything that was said has been true with the hot tub. The Chlorine tabs dissolve way too fast and I have trouble maintaining the pH level. I seem to have had some skin irritation/itching as well as a result. Nothing major, but noticeable. After some traveling, and waiting to get in the Taylor test kit and chemicals, I'm now ready to switch over to the Bromine tub.

Here is what I bought. I've never bought 'spa chemicals' from the grocery store before, so I want to make sure I'm on the right track with some of this stuff:

1) Baking Soda (to raise TA): Arm and Hammer Pure Baking Soda, Ingredients: Sodium Bicarbonate

2) Borax (to raise pH): 20 Mule Team Borax, Ingredients: Sodium Tetraborate

3) Sodium Bromide (Bromine reserve): Leisure Time Sodium Bromide, Ingredients: Sodium Bromide (99%), Other (1%)

4) Chlorine (to shock spa): Clorox, Regular Bleach, Ingredients: Sodium Hypochlorite (6%), Other ingredients: 94%); Yields: 5.7% available Chlorine

Test Kit: K2106

Still need to find:

Dry Acid (to raise pH)

Thoughts? Do I have the right stuff?

dry acid is used to lower TA and pH, whereas baking soda does just the opposite...you can buy dry acid locally from your spa/pool store, it is commonly known as pH down, pH minus, etc. depending on the brand of course, or you can buy ole fashioned muriatic acid which can be found at most home improvement stores, menards, etc. which is not recommended by most manufacturers to use because of the risks of handling pure acid can be dangerous, but that is your own decision to make

[coursonb]

I'm attempting to get my spa water back to where it should be and here's the readings I've had so far in regards to pH and TA:

With Taylor 2006 test kit:

Temp: 103

Gallons: 535, J470

<EDIT>: Ozonator running 24/7

pH: above 8.0 (took 5 drops to lower to the 7.5 range)

TA: 200ppm (took 20 drops)

I had pH down on me and put in 16 oz, opened up the spa halfway, ran the jets for about 20 minutes and then left it open for about 20 minutes before testing again. I believe I put in too much pH down at one time, but according to the directions on the bottle I needed quite a bit more than this. Here are the next readings, about 40 minutes later (is this long enough):

pH: 7.4ish

TA: 180ppm

The TA did not drop like I thought it was going to. I'm trying to get the TA within a reasonable range before switching over to bromine. Any more advice? Should I use the remaining 16oz of pH decreaser to lower the TA, although the pH is at 7.4? The water is cloudy and has a slight odor.

[chem geek]

Normally, 1.9 ounces of dry acid will lower the TA by 10 ppm in 535 gallons. So your 16 ounces (weight) should have lowered the TA by about 85 ppm so dropping only 20 ppm is indeed strange. Were it not for aeration, the pH would have dropped to around 6.4 or so. You didn't add anything to raise the pH, correct? You just ran the jets? It seems to me that the pH Down isn't 93.2% sodium bisulfate like it is supposed to be.

[coursonb]

Normally, 1.9 ounces of dry acid will lower the TA by 10 ppm in 535 gallons. So your 16 ounces (weight) should have lowered the TA by about 85 ppm so dropping only 20 ppm is indeed strange. Were it not for aeration, the pH would have dropped to around 6.4 or so. You didn't add anything to raise the pH, correct? You just ran the jets? It seems to me that the pH Down isn't 93.2% sodium bisulfate like it is supposed to be.

Is it possible I did not wait long enough? After the last reading, I kept the jets going and the hot tub half open. The new readings, after half an hour were:

pH: 7.6

TA: 165

The TA looks like it dropped down a bit. I'm not sure where the pH originally was as it was >=8.0, but required about 5 drops to bring it down to 7.4-7.6 or so.

Also, I just measured the Calcium Hardness as 120ish. It was red until 12 drops went in, then turned a light blue/clear color. I continued adding drops to see if it would get darker blue and at 16 drops it was the same, so I figured it must be 120.

Here are details on the pH decreaser:

ProTeam pH Down, Spa (edit: this is a liquid pH down)

"To lower pH .1 use 1oz of pH down per 100 gallons of water. To avoid lowering total alkalinity mix 1 oz of pH down into 10 oz of spa water in a container and pour evenly around the spa. Should total alkalinity need lowering the same time as pH correction, pour directly inso spa water in one area without dillution"

I have a 535 gallon tub, so it should be 5.35 oz to lower the pH .1. Since it was over 8.0, I started out with about 16oz and figured I would be safe. The aeration seems to be raising the pH back up, so maybe I should try again with the pH down? I have 16oz left.

Here is a link to the pH Down I was given:

My link

[coursonb]

I cannot find an ingredient list anywhere, but this MSDS spec sheet shows it has hydrochloric acid. Not sure what that means exactly or if it makes a difference:

Hydrochloric Acid

[chem geek]

Well that explains it. A liquid pH Down. Hydrochloric acid is also in Muriatic Acid, but this product you are using is fairly diluted. I can't tell by exactly how much based on the MSDS since it does not give a percentage of Hydrochloric acid -- perhaps that is on the bottle or package. As for waiting, the water should mix within a few minutes if you've got the jets running, though it's interesting that you saw it drop a bit further but that could just be test error that's +/- 10 ppm.

Based on your results which I'll take to be a roughly 25 ppm drop, I'm guessing that the ProTeam Spa pH Down is around 7.5% Muriatic Acid so is about 1/4 strength. So yes, you'll need to use a lot more, but if you use it up you can get dry acid instead that will probably be less expensive for what you need. Muriatic Acid from a hardware store will be even less expensive, but it's very strong with full strength at 31.45% so try and get the half-strength at 15% since it will fume less.

[coursonb]

Well that explains it. A liquid pH Down. Hydrochloric acid is also in Muriatic Acid, but this product you are using is fairly diluted. I can't tell by exactly how much based on the MSDS since it does not give a percentage of Hydrochloric acid -- perhaps that is on the bottle or package. As for waiting, the water should mix within a few minutes if you've got the jets running, though it's interesting that you saw it drop a bit further but that could just be test error that's +/- 10 ppm.

Based on your results which I'll take to be a roughly 25 ppm drop, I'm guessing that the ProTeam Spa pH Down is around 7.5% Muriatic Acid so is about 1/4 strength. So yes, you'll need to use a lot more, but if you use it up you can get dry acid instead that will probably be less expensive for what you need. Muriatic Acid from a hardware store will be even less expensive, but it's very strong with full strength at 31.45% so try and get the half-strength at 15% since it will fume less.

After gradually adding, testing, and aerating, I used up the entire bottle. The TA went from 200 to 110 and my numbers are now around this:

CH: 120ish

PH: 7.4

TA: 110

I went ahead and dumped in the sodium bromide, and shocked with liquid chlorine bleach. I am now waiting for the bromine to drop (currently 10ppm) and then will add the floater and bromine (1") tabs I was given from the dealer. I'm thinking around 3-4 tablets to start out but have no idea if you care to comment. Afterwards, I'll probably add a bit of gentle spa. When I added the sodium bromide/bleach I noticed quite a bit of foaming, is that standard? It seems to have gone down.

Also, do I just go into the spa dealer and ask for dry acid? I assume I want the sodium bisulfate you suggested?

Thanks a lot

[chem geek]

The product you've been using isn't bad. Hydrochloric acid is in some ways preferred over dry acid. It just takes more to use because this particular product is so diluted. The issue is more one of pricing since I suspect it's expensive. Anyway, your spa dealer probably has a granular pH Down product which would be sodium bisulfate.

[Itchy and Scratchy]

Look for your dry acid at a pool supply store. I got mine at leslies. Labled for spas they sold it 2 lbs for $10. For pools a 10 lbs bucket was $20. That $20 of dry acid will last years for my 200 gal spa. I use proteam gentel spa borates. I found online at $27 with shipping. This should last over a year. Spa depot is great for bromide $10 1.5 lbs and cheap MPS. Go for bulk or generic chems when possible. Use the pool calculator and you will save lot I'd cash and prevent chemical warfare in your spa.

[coursonb]

Awesome advice guys One other question. My spa if very cloudy right now. The filters are 2 days away from needing to be cleaned (90 day cycle) and I'm wondering if that could be an issue. I also just switched over from chlorine to bromine and there was a day or two in there inbetween where the chlorine tabs ran out in the tub and I forgot to replace them. I'm going to retest again tonight or tomorrow, but the main specs on TA, pH, Bromine, and CH seemed to be in line. Any idea on what could cause the cloudiness? Also, there is a slight odor but it's hard to place.

[Itchy and Scratchy]

Sounds like a sanitizer issue to me. Not enough of it. Give it a good shocking. A take my filters out and spray them off when I shock every week.

[coursonb]

Sounds like a sanitizer issue to me. Not enough of it. Give it a good shocking. A take my filters out and spray them off when I shock every week.

I have ProTeam Spa Oxidizing Shock and I also have liquid chlorine bleach. When I had an issue a couple months back with cloudy water the oxidizing shock worked. However, I was using a chlorine tub. Now, I'm onto Bromine.

Is my Bromine too high for a shock though? It has been about 20 hours since I changed over to Bromine last night and here are my numbers:

pH: 7.6

Total Bromine: 11.5 ppm-->8.0ppm after 25 min running open with jets going and floater removed

Total Alkalinity: 120

The total Bromine is up from last night (possibly because I closed it up after probably about 5 hours involved in the entire switch where I was aerating it. When I closed it up, I had let it run for about an hour and it was still 10ppm. I then added 2-3 bromine tabs and went to bed. I just removed the Bromine tabs, opened the tub, and ran the jets. Any advice? Do I still shock? With which chemical?

Is it safe to get in?

<EDIT> I also have an ozonator that was installed by the dealer and I believe constantly runs. I have a J470 and the control panel shows it as off, but after the installation bubbles started to form and have ran ever since, continuously. I'm not sure if that affects anything.

INFO on Pro Team Spa Oxidizing Shock

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MSDS - Oxone, Monopersulfate Compound, and proprietary ingredient