Dichlor/bleach Along With Nature2

[saleens281sc]

Hey everyone, had a good time searching for my answer, but couldn't pin point a real good solution, so I thought I'd ask... We have a Evolution/Strong spa that we bought in July of this year. We've been using the Nature2 cartridge along with dichlor(weekly) and non-chlorine shock(after each soak). If I remember right, this non-chlorine shock isn't exactly MPS. This is what the pool/spa store recommended. I noticed that when using dichlor weekly the water is staying fairly fresh. I've been checking the water with test strips and it appears that my CYA is getting higher, around 80 or so.

I read before that you could use Dichlor then bleach, but not sure if this also applies with Nature2? It is now winter and would be tough to drain the tub for about another 10 weeks, just worried my CYA will be through the roof by then, thus wanting to switch to bleach if I can. It is possible this question is dumb/basic, but was looking for an expert to give me the thumbs up. Can anyone help?

Sanitation

On a fresh fill use Dichlor until you get to 20-30 ppm CYA. (10 ppm FC = 9 ppm CYA)

Then switch to Clorox Unscented 6% bleach.

Never let FC drop to Zero for any length of time. Keep it between 3-6 ppm normally, min of 1 ppm, and shock to 12 ppm once a week.

Use MPS if needed before hot tub party's and/or once a week to help oxidation. Don't use more than needed, because it's acidic and may lower your TA/pH.

Check your Chlorine Demand, and keep it low.

Dichlor, Bleach and MPS is all you need to keep your tub sanitized.

Use The Pool Calculator to calculate exact amounts to add.

[waterbear]

Hey everyone, had a good time searching for my answer, but couldn't pin point a real good solution, so I thought I'd ask... We have a Evolution/Strong spa that we bought in July of this year. We've been using the Nature2 cartridge along with dichlor(weekly) and non-chlorine shock(after each soak). If I remember right, this non-chlorine shock isn't exactly MPS. This is what the pool/spa store recommended. I noticed that when using dichlor weekly the water is staying fairly fresh. I've been checking the water with test strips and it appears that my CYA is getting higher, around 80 or so.

I read before that you could use Dichlor then bleach, but not sure if this also applies with Nature2? It is now winter and would be tough to drain the tub for about another 10 weeks, just worried my CYA will be through the roof by then, thus wanting to switch to bleach if I can. It is possible this question is dumb/basic, but was looking for an expert to give me the thumbs up. Can anyone help?

Sanitation

On a fresh fill use Dichlor until you get to 20-30 ppm CYA. (10 ppm FC = 9 ppm CYA)

Then switch to Clorox Unscented 6% bleach.

Never let FC drop to Zero for any length of time. Keep it between 3-6 ppm normally, min of 1 ppm, and shock to 12 ppm once a week.

Use MPS if needed before hot tub party's and/or once a week to help oxidation. Don't use more than needed, because it's acidic and may lower your TA/pH.

Check your Chlorine Demand, and keep it low.

Dichlor, Bleach and MPS is all you need to keep your tub sanitized.

Use The Pool Calculator to calculate exact amounts to add.

Yes, you can use bleach with N2. Are you primarily using MPS with it and chlorine for as needed shocking or are you just using dichlor with the N2? If it is the latter save yourself some money and leave off the N2 because it's not really doing much. If you are using MPS before and after each soak and chlorine for the weekl shock then the silver/MPS is your primary sanitizer.

[chem geek]

If I remember right, this non-chlorine shock isn't exactly MPS. This is what the pool/spa store recommended. I noticed that when using dichlor weekly the water is staying fairly fresh. I've been checking the water with test strips and it appears that my CYA is getting higher, around 80 or so.

Non-chlorine shock is potassium monopersulfate (MPS), usually at around 43%. As for the CYA, if you are only using the Dichlor for shocking whereas the silver ion in Nature2 plus your regular MPS are your primary sanitizer, then I'm a bit surprised that your CYA got that high. It implies adding around 89 ppm FC, though perhaps you are shocking to 10 ppm FC so that would just be around 9 weeks. To keep the water clear, you probably don't need to shock quite so high, assuming you are using sufficient MPS on a regular basis to handle bather waste -- adding 5 ppm FC per week would probably be enough as a weekly chlorine "boost" to your regular MPS oxidizer. As waterbear pointed out, you could switch to shocking with bleach -- perhaps after 3 or so weeks of shocking with Dichlor first and that should save you some money.

[saleens281sc]

Ok, let me rephrase. I'm not actually using non-chlorine shock, I'm using something called oxidizing shock. I'm not sure if it is the same thing, but this is what the local pool and spa store gave me along with my N2. They told me to do 1 cap full each week(I've been doing about 1/2 capful each week as it seems to be plenty) of Dichlor. Also, they told me to use the oxidizing shock each time AFTER we're in the water, so I've been adding about 1.5 tbsp of this give or take after each soak. I'll add more if we spend more time in the water or have more people.

So the oxidizing shock is made by ProTeam, see this link. It doesn't list any ingredients/chemicals.

http://www.hottubwarehouse.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=72412268

The dichlor is 99% Sodium Dicholor-S-Triazinetrione, 1% Dihydrate made by the same company.

I just decided to re-check the balance to see where I was, I normally add Dichlor on Sunday, but I wasn't able to yesterday, the water smells a little bit, but this is what it normally smells like before I add the dichlor.

Hardness was about 50ppm, free chlorine was at 0, PH around 7.6, TA around 100, and CYA was actually pretty low about 20ppm. Hmmm... We soaked last night for about 30 minutes and I added about 1 tbsp of Oxidizing Shock afterwards. Does this seem normal?

[chem geek]

As shown here, ProTeam® Spa Oxidizing Shock is "Oxone" Monopersulfate Compound and that is what we call non-chlorine shock or MPS. They do not indicate the quantity, but at most the MPS portion would be around 43% if the product was nearly pure Oxone (since this is a triple-salt with one of the components of this salt being MPS).

Adding this product only after your soak is not following the Nature2 Owner's Manual where you are to increase the MPS level before your soak as needed to get it into range (the "Good" level on the test strip is probably around 20 ppm MPS or roughly 4 ppm FC equivalent based on the amount in the instructions). You then add more oxidizer after your soak. Realistically, the total amount of oxidizer you would need to be adding for every person-hour of soaking would be around 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoons). Your adding 1 tablespoon after a half-hour soak of ONE person would be perhaps OK, but you said "we" implying two or more people and that would likely not be enough oxidizer. You'll probably need to add around 2 tablespoons after a half-hour soak with 2 people.

In order to test for MPS before a soak, you could use MPS test strips as the Nature2 manual suggests or for more accuracy you could use your chlorine test to check for total chlorine. MPS will show up as Combined Chlorine (CC), not Free Chlorine (FC). Note that the Nature2 manual says to add 1 tablespoon PER 250 gallons. Your spa is probably 350 gallons, right? If so, then even the Nature2 instructions would say to add around 1-1/2 tablespoons of MPS, though it's better to adjust this for bather load based on the formula I gave or even better based on your experience of what is needed to still measure an oxidizer residual before your next soak.

Are you wanting to avoid exposure to chlorine and is that why you are using Nature2 with MPS? Though the method is a low-chlorine recipe, it is quite a bit more expensive than the Dichlor-then-bleach method that does not require Nature2. Up to you which way to go -- both methods when done properly are sanitary.

[saleens281sc]

As shown here, ProTeam® Spa Oxidizing Shock is "Oxone" Monopersulfate Compound and that is what we call non-chlorine shock or MPS. They do not indicate the quantity, but at most the MPS portion would be around 43% if the product was nearly pure Oxone (since this is a triple-salt with one of the components of this salt being MPS).

Adding this product only after your soak is not following the Nature2 Owner's Manual where you are to increase the MPS level before your soak as needed to get it into range (the "Good" level on the test strip is probably around 20 ppm MPS or roughly 4 ppm FC equivalent based on the amount in the instructions). You then add more oxidizer after your soak. Realistically, the total amount of oxidizer you would need to be adding for every person-hour of soaking would be around 7 teaspoons (2-1/3 tablespoons). Your adding 1 tablespoon after a half-hour soak of ONE person would be perhaps OK, but you said "we" implying two or more people and that would likely not be enough oxidizer. You'll probably need to add around 2 tablespoons after a half-hour soak with 2 people.

In order to test for MPS before a soak, you could use MPS test strips as the Nature2 manual suggests or for more accuracy you could use your chlorine test to check for total chlorine. MPS will show up as Combined Chlorine (CC), not Free Chlorine (FC). Note that the Nature2 manual says to add 1 tablespoon PER 250 gallons. Your spa is probably 350 gallons, right? If so, then even the Nature2 instructions would say to add around 1-1/2 tablespoons of MPS, though it's better to adjust this for bather load based on the formula I gave or even better based on your experience of what is needed to still measure an oxidizer residual before your next soak.

Are you wanting to avoid exposure to chlorine and is that why you are using Nature2 with MPS? Though the method is a low-chlorine recipe, it is quite a bit more expensive than the Dichlor-then-bleach method that does not require Nature2. Up to you which way to go -- both methods when done properly are sanitary.

Ok, now that I'm 100% certain that I'm using MPS, this is all starting to come together. The specs list the tub as 400 gal. My test strips do not measure CC, just FC, so I gotta get new strips. Based on the fact that I wasn't 100% certain that I was using MPS, I just wasn't sure about adding MPS before AND after the soak. The local spa guy told me to Dichlor once a week, Oxidize after each soak and I would be fine. I am glad I understand good enough now to pay more attention. I was trying to use N2 + MPS to avoid exposure to cholorine, but also to keep the chemical part simple unless I had more time to learn.

So I think I'm going to order a Taylor test kit and be a little more careful about keeping MPS in the water before and after a soak. I think it would be easy enough now that you all have passed the knowledge, to go with dichlor+bleach method. Would I need a complete drain/refill to start using dichlor than bleach? It won't be possible to drain/refill until after the winter season. I went back and did some math, I've been adding about 2oz of MPS after soaking 2 people for 30 minutes. 2oz is a half capful. I'd say on average we use the tub about 3 total hours per week, 1.5 hours x 2 people and are normally showered before soaks.

[chem geek]

No, you don't need to change the water when switching from Nature2/MPS to Dichlor-then-bleach. You would only need to change the water when going from bromine to chlorine (the other way around, that is chlorine to bromine, doesn't need a water change).

So 2 ounces is 4 tablespoons so a lot better than first described and should be plenty, though without a proper test kit it would be hard to know for sure. Get the Taylor K-2006 which you could use with either method. By the way, test strips for FC and most (but not all) other tests are pretty much useless.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I would think, since he is using the "low" chlorine recipe, he would need to test for MPS to make sure he has enough before soaking and is using enough to keep up with the bather load, since you are only using dichlor weekly to shock, you would not need to test for that as much???

Also, FYI chem geek, watch the MPS active amounts, I have learned some companies (sea Klear being one) are changing there chemicals a bit and their new MPS, now called balanced shock( i have not looked up to see what was added to 'balance" it yet) has changed. People are going to have to add more to get the same amount of oxidizing power. Leisure time is also very low on the percentages

[chem geek]

Yes, with the Nature2/MPS method, he needs to check MPS levels. There are test strips for those, but he could also use a chlorine test kit such as the K-2006 measuring total chlorine (FC which will likely be 0 plus CC) where a level of 4 ppm is roughly equivalent to the "OK" level of 20 ppm MPS on test strips. If he's sure he's not going to ever go to a chlorine-only method, then the FAS-DPD in the K-2006 may be overkill.

Good point about the active amounts. All of my discussions in terms of amounts to add are for nearly pure Oxone which is the triple salt which is roughly 43% MPS. For brands that are less, such as 35%, then one would need to use nearly 1/4th more than the amounts I calculated. People should look at the ingredients or the MSDS for the product they are using, though really it just gets down to adding whatever it takes so that you end up measuring a residual for the next soak (or raising to recommended levels in the N2 manual if one is following that approach).

[saleens281sc]

Thanks again for all the help everyone. I kind of have been going on feel/smell of the water. I know that isn't the proper way, but I know if the water gets funky, something is out of line. I just didn't want the CYA to get overly high, but it seems like it must have only been a time or two that I tested that it was high. I am now out of "oxidizing shock," so I'm going to try to pick up something that has the ingredients/percentages readily available. I will also pick up a test kit, the reason I got the cheap strips was to keep alkalinity/PH at decent levels, especially when I first filled the tub. I didn't have a clue what my regular water would be like, but it was actually pretty close to normal levels right out of the faucet.