New Pool Problems?

[David121]

Ok so i have a few:

Our cartridge filter is getting full after 2-3 days requiring cleaning, a friend with an identical pump/filter set up on a similar size pool is only having to once every few months, ours was fine for the first few weeks then it just suddenly went like this, the water parameters are fine i've checked them every week. It seems to be fine until after i vacuum then it shoots up. I put in a sock filter over the skimmer basket which has alleviated the problem slightly...

We have a huge problem with portugese millipeeds, they just crawl straight into the pool and drown...hundreds of them, they don't float for very long so the skimmer misses allot of them, so i'm vacuuming them out every other day, they seem to break up into small pieces when i vacuum.

We have a solar pool cover, the manufacturer recommends having the cover come up the sides of the pool to sit flush with the bottom of the coping, this is making it very difficult to get the cover on and off...can i cut it off so it sits on the water only, not coming up the sides? It's reasonably sheltered from wind.

We have a Hayward Pool Vac Ultra, i cannot get it to work properly as it will only stay in one end of the pool, tried it on each different setting and adjusted the flow valve...should we just give up on it? I always do it manually anyway.

Pool info: Freeform, 12.5m long lap lane, with 5.0m wide end sections, 2.5m in the middle...concrete, fully tiled.

[waterbear]

Ok so i have a few:

Our cartridge filter is getting full after 2-3 days requiring cleaning, a friend with an identical pump/filter set up on a similar size pool is only having to once every few months, ours was fine for the first few weeks then it just suddenly went like this, the water parameters are fine i've checked them every week. It seems to be fine until after i vacuum then it shoots up. I put in a sock filter over the skimmer basket which has alleviated the problem slightly...

"fine" is not a water parameter. Test result numbers would be more helpful.

What shoots up after you vacuum? Filter pressure? That means you are vacuuming up a lot of stuff into your filter, possibly the millipeeds that are breaking apart on you?

My suggestion would be to use an actual approved sanitizer system on your pool and dump the ionizer that you are using since you are having problems with pool maintenance. I think you will find that things will become easier to maintain.

[David121]

Ok someone with the same sanitiser doesn't have the problem, i suspect it is most likely the millipeeds.

I didn't really want to mention the system because i can't re-distribute the article on Titanium electrolysis showing what is actually happening.

The sanitiser has an ioniser but as i only recently worked out, the oxidiser produces 6 different species each capable of oxidation, it would appear that as there is always a natural level of chlorine in water, whether it be from the CaCl added it is oxidised at the titanium electrodes to CL₂ and then forming ur standard Hypochlorous acid, but at a lower level, (to be honest i don't completely understand however the paper i've sited explained it better). Also the carbonate in the water from the buffer is apparently also oxidised at the anode to per-carbonate which also has residual antibiotic properties.

pH=7.0 (varies between 6.9 and 7.1 due to the concrete still curing) TA=65ppm Ca=350ppm Cu=0.5ppm (Using LaMotte ColorQ photometer) Phosphate=0 (using a test strip)

I'm not going to promote the system or mention it again, just please if u don't believe it works could u treat this as an academic exercise as though i had a normal pool?

The stuff is brownish and washes off easily, when we did have a problem with the copper the cartridge was green.

[chem geek]

Just stop already. I looked at the paper and did a brief analysis in this post where you can see how ridiculous it is for you to apply what happened in that experiment with your pool. The volumes and timeframes are completely different. Having a pretty massive electrolysis for a small volume of water spending 15 minutes with that same small volume of water is not at all the same thing as sanitizing 10,000 gallons. You should know better than that. It's as if someone adding a teaspoon of chlorine in a gallon of water and noticing how it kills bacteria so quickly then assumes that they only have to add a teaspoon of chlorine to their 10,000 gallon pool.

Yes, there is usually some chloride in the water and yes if you increase calcium hardness (CH) using calcium chloride then that level will be higher, but more like 350 ppm salt (chloride as ppm sodium chloride) which is still well below that of saltwater chlorine generator pools at 3000 ppm so the amount of chlorine being generated is very low. By the way, most of what the paper talks about, such as percarbonate, is speculative (the possible products they talk about are oxygen radicals, ozone and hydroxyl radicals, chlorine, percarbonate or persulfate, hydroperoxide, and the electric field itself). They didn't actually measure any of those species -- they are merely speculating as to what they might be. So please don't repeat it as if it were measured fact and even more importantly the actual quantities of any such electrolysis products weren't measured. It's all a moot point anyway since 15 minutes to kill bacteria in 350 ml (0.0925 gallons) is a far cry from the over 3 years it would take for that same amount of electrolysis to kill bacteria in 10,000 gallons (as if the bacteria will wait that long and not multiply!). Again, use your head here and stop trying to show that this worthless system you purchased actually does any good in terms of disinfection/sanitation.

In the experiment, they had 45-100V with 125-250 mA so that's 5.6-25 Watts for a 15-minute kill time in 0.0925 gallons. Even for an 8-hour kill time, 10,000 gallons would need at least 3.4 kilowatts and over 16 square feet of plate surface area unless the plates were placed closer together than in the experiment. Are you starting to get a sense for how ridiculous this approach is, at least using titanium plates? There are some advanced oxidation systems that use special surfaces to encourage hydroxyl radical formation, but these are expensive (diamond coated) and still don't provide a residual disinfectant for the bulk pool water.

You've got a copper algicide which will prevent algae growth but requires you to keep the pH lower to prevent staining. And you've got a nice electrolysis machine like kids had in school producing oxygen and hydrogen gas making you think it's actually doing something useful -- only a very, very, very small amount of water passing through actually getting sanitized.

[David121]

I was not trying to flaunt the system, i said assuming i had a noraml pool what would i do? I didn't bring the system up in the first place in this post, i never mentioned it until somebody else did.

I don't care what you think, i'm satisfied the system is working, my local council is happy aswell, if its not then i'm sure it will reveal itself soon enough at which point i'll change the system, until then i'm sticking with it.

Do u think instead of focusing on the sanitation you could perhaps help me with the completely unrelated cover situation? I don't know what to do there. On TFP that was the question i asked first...i found that other thread and mentioned what i had and you guys don't like it fine, but the cover is completely unrelated. Its a standard solar cover on a roller for a weird shaped pool.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Our cartridge filter is getting full after 2-3 days requiring cleaning,

It's probably bacteria and algae.

It could also be scale forming in the filter clogging the filter media.

We have a solar pool cover, the manufacturer recommends having the cover come up the sides of the pool to sit flush with the bottom of the coping, this is making it very difficult to get the cover on and off...can i cut it off so it sits on the water only, not coming up the sides?

Yes, you can cut it so that it only sits on the water. There is no need for it to go up the sides.

How do I install and use my solar cover?

Install the blanket on the pool bubble side down. If your cover needs trimming, spread it out on the pool and let it settle down for a day or two. This allows wrinkles and folds to disappear and the cover to lie flat. Trim the blanket so the edges are flush with the side walls of your pool.

http://www.solarcovers.com/faqs.asp#install

[chem geek]

You can read about Portuguese millipedes in this document from the Department of Agriculture for the Government of Western Australia where they give some suggestions for control.

[David121]

The pool is free from algae, cu is a registered algaecide and the active ingredient in many algaecides.

Thankyou, we have it fitted roughly and it seems to be effective at keeping the heat in but its just so hard to get on lol, i think cutting the sides off should make it allot easier though.

[chem geek]

:

:

Our cartridge filter is getting full after 2-3 days requiring cleaning, a friend with an identical pump/filter set up on a similar size pool is only having to once every few months, ours was fine for the first few weeks then it just suddenly went like this, the water parameters are fine i've checked them every week. It seems to be fine until after i vacuum then it shoots up. I put in a sock filter over the skimmer basket which has alleviated the problem slightly...

We have a huge problem with portugese millipeeds, they just crawl straight into the pool and drown...hundreds of them, they don't float for very long so the skimmer misses allot of them, so i'm vacuuming them out every other day, they seem to break up into small pieces when i vacuum.

If your friend's pool isn't getting the Portuguese millipedes, then there's your answer. The millipeads are breaking up and much of this is getting caught in the filters causing you to clean them more frequently. Also, are you switching a multi-port valve to "waste" when you vacuum to waste or are you just using a vacuum on the suction port keeping filtration in place? If the latter, then obviously everything you are vacuuming is getting caught into the filter requiring it to be cleaned more frequently. If you have a multi-port valve, then you can set it to "waste" when you vacuum, but unfortunately that will waste a lot of water though will let you vacuum the millipedes directly to waste rather than to the filter.

Skimmer socks will help catch some larger particles in the skimmer before getting to the filter, but if you have floor drains then some pieces may be getting to the filter via that route.

Also, what is the size of your filter (you said it was the same as your friend's filter) and your pool volume? An oversized filter, such as a 4-cartridge filter, requires cleaning less often. A smaller filter requires more frequent cleaning as there is less surface area so it gets clogged up more quickly. In my own 16,000 gallon pool shown here and here, I have an oversized Jandy CL-340 4-cartridge filter with 340 square feet of filter area and I only need to clean it once a year, but I have an electric safety cover that keeps the pool fairly clean though it is used 1-2 hours every day on weekdays and longer on weekends for 7 months of the year.

[txpoolguy]

It sounds as though your cartridge filter is "short-cycling", which usually means that it's time to replace the cartridge/s. The filter is doing what you want it to - its removing debris from the pool water, which is what causes the pressure rise. Short times between cleanings means it's probably time to change the elements. The Navigator is likely having problems due to the reduced water flow as a result of a very dirty filter. Once you get the filter problem corrected, you'll be able to see if the cleaner has an actual problem or not. As CG says, the size of the filter may be insufficient for your environment. With proper maintenance and cleaning, it's possible to get 5+ years of duty from a set of elements, but every pool is different. Some filters last 10+ years, others far less due to the amount of work they are being asked to do.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that without an oxidizer you are going to have organics like oils, insects, leaves and such build up and clog the filter.

I also think that without an oxidizer you could also get a bacterial biofilm on the tile and in the equipment that will clog the filter.

Here is a page about how to clean your filter.

A high CSI could cause scaling, which could clog the filter. What are your pH,TA and calcium levels?

Also, you should use a skimmer sock while vacuuming to catch fine debris and keep it out of the filter.

[chem geek]

A high CSI could cause scaling, which could clog the filter. What are your pH,TA and calcium levels?

Based on his earlier post data here:

pH=7.0 (varies between 6.9 and 7.1 due to the concrete still curing) TA=65ppm Ca=350ppm Cu=0.5ppm (Using LaMotte ColorQ photometer) Phosphate=0 (using a test strip)

The saturation index is between -0.6 and -0.4 so I doubt that scaling is an issue and in fact the concrete will be at the risk for pitting and degradation over time if the low-end of the recommendations for this system are used (low end for TA is 40 ppm and for CH is 250 ppm which would result in a saturation index of -1.0 at a pH of 6.8). The stuff in the filter is brownish and sounds like it could be remnants of the hundreds of Portuguese millipedes which is why I linked to a document that gives some ideas about preventing these millipedes from getting into the pool in the first place. The use of skimmer socks is a good idea, but in an earlier post he said he tried this and it only helped a little bit:

I put in a sock filter over the skimmer basket which has alleviated the problem slightly...

This is why I asked if this pool has floor drains and if the vacuuming was to waste or to the filter.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Ok, it wasn't clear whether David was using a skimmer sock while vacuuming or just during normal filtration. If he was using a skimmer sock while vacuuming, then the millipedes should not be the cause of the filter getting clogged. A skimmer sock, or women's queen size knee-hi stocking, will catch most fine debris. The process of vacuuming will not shred insects fine enough to get through a skimmer sock.

The type of brownish stuff he is reporting sounds like what is commonly seen in hot tub cartridge filters which is primarily due to body oils, lotions etc. Without an oxidizer, these things just build up and eventually begin to cause problems.

I think that without an oxidizer there can be a buildup of bacteria, mold, fungus etc. As you noted in another post, bacteria will not be controlled by the levels of copper being used.

Also, without an oxidizer there will be plenty of organics from leaves etc that will contribute to the problem. Tannins from leaves can create the brown color. In pools that use chlorine, these types of organics are broken down and are not usually a problem.

[waterbear]

I tend to agree with quuantomchromodynamics that the lack of oxidizer is contributing to the short filter cycle.

[David121]

Hi,

Concluded the problem is the millipedes, their pool is in an urban environment and they don't have many millipedes, whereas ours is in the middle of dense bushland combined with an unusually wet summer we've been having hasn't helped. Due to enclosure size and proximity to bush physical barrier control or chemical barriers are going to be too hard to implement. It seems the filter sock is able to prevent the actual insect shells, but they break up into about 2mm fragments and the guts seem to pass through the sock unimpeded.

Until the manufacturer can verify their claims about the sanitation system we've asked our pool builder to set it up as a normal chlorine pool for the short term, if not the system can have a peristaltic chlorine pump added so in the long term if claims aren't verified will install that. Also contacted APVMA to see what they think.

As a long term solution to the millipede problem, contemplating having a Waterco "Multicyclone" centrifugal filter fitted between the pump and cartridge, although don't have any experience on how well it would work on cells...it only works on particles denser than water so to test i washed the worst of the cartridge into a bucket and let it sit overnight, has separated into two layers with the cells on the bottom so i'm hopeful...

Any one familiar with the centrifugal pre filters?