Effect Of Ozonator On Bromine Levels To Maintain

[njmurvin]

I thought I read somewhere that when using an ozonator, you don't have to maintain as high of a bromine level as without an ozonator. Is that true? My spa is reading total bromine (per Taylor 2106 test kit) of about 2.5ppm with an ozonator. Is that too low?

Here is a quotation from the Marquis guide on water maintenance. BTW, I have the spa frog with mineral cartridge in addition to the ozonator.

"The combination of a Spa Frog® Mineral Cartridge* and the factory installed ozonator greatly reduce the amount of sanitizer required. Instead of the normal 3 - 5 ppm of bromine, you may only need to maintain 1 - 2 ppm of bromine."

[njmurvin]

I thought I read somewhere that when using an ozonator, you don't have to maintain as high of a bromine level as without an ozonator. Is that true? My spa is reading total bromine (per Taylor 2106 test kit) of about 2.5ppm with an ozonator. Is that too low?

Here is a quotation from the Marquis guide on water maintenance. BTW, I have the spa frog with mineral cartridge in addition to the ozonator.

"The combination of a Spa Frog® Mineral Cartridge* and the factory installed ozonator greatly reduce the amount of sanitizer required. Instead of the normal 3 - 5 ppm of bromine, you may only need to maintain 1 - 2 ppm of bromine."

Quite a few looks, but no responses. Maybe it's a dumb question. Let me rephrase.

For those of you running ozonators, what bromine levels do you maintain? My take on the logic of the mfr's recommendation of using less bromine (and that's even weak "...you MAY only need to maintain 1-2ppm of bromine") is that the ozonator is killing bugs some of the time, so less bromine is needed. Wouldn't that depend on how active the ozonator is? I think it only runs when the pump is running in low speed which, for me, is 4 hours a day. Is this understanding correct?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

With the frog, and the ozone, you should be fine running it at a lower level, thats the idea of the frog. Ozone does not sanitize, just oxidizes. Since it is helping with the oxidizing, it frees up the santizer to sanitize, rather than oxidize. Do not reley on ozone to sanitize, or reley on that it is working unless you check it frequently. The chips/bulbs do burn out, and most people dont even know it. Its the frog that allows for the lower bromine

IMO and from what i have learned, you should be fine in the 2 range. I would not go as low as 1 because it is too risky for it to drop to 0 while using the spa, and in my own personal opinion, if i had guests, i would bring that level up higher while they are using the tub, which can be acheived by shocking.

[quantumchromodynamics]

The key is consistency. You should maintain the bromine in the 2 ppm to 5 ppm range. Ozone can help by oxidizing bromide to bromine. As long as the bromine does not drop below 2 ppm, then 2 ppm is fine. If you find that the bromine ever goes below 2 ppm, then you need to maintain the level slightly higher.

Read Waterbear's post on bromine.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26324

[njmurvin]

The key is consistency. You should maintain the bromine in the 2 ppm to 5 ppm range. Ozone can help by oxidizing bromide to bromine. As long as the bromine does not drop below 2 ppm, then 2 ppm is fine. If you find that the bromine ever goes below 2 ppm, then you need to maintain the level slightly higher.

Read Waterbear's post on bromine.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26324

Thanks! That helps a lot.

[waterbear]

The lower bromine levels needed are less of an effect of the ozone than the addition of the silver by the frog system. In theory, the silver ions added by the frog are what allow the lower sanitizer levels. It would be the same with or without the ozone. The ozone does help to maintain a more constant bromine level, however, since it does oxidize the bromide reserve in the water into hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer), On the down side it also has a tendency to over oxidize the bromide into non renewable bromate.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I would avoid silver in a bromine tub due to the low solubility of silver bromide, which is only 140 ppb (parts per billion). Solubility product, Ksp 5.4 × 10^-13. For example, if the bromide concentration were 79.9 ppm (0.001 M), then the water would be saturated with silver bromide when the silver concentration reached 5.8 x 10^-5 ppm (58 parts per trillion). I would think that the silver would never reach a concentration sufficient to do any good.

[waterbear]

Yet the spa frog IS a silver based system. Check out the instruction manual for the active ingredient. It's silver chloride.

[quantumchromodynamics]

One of the problems associated with the use of silver for killing microorganisms is that silver has a tendency to complex with other compounds and become increasingly insoluble thereby reducing the effective microorganisms killing ability of the silver.

For example, it would not be anticipated that silver chloride when used in combination with sodium bromide would be an effective prolong disinfectant system because of the combination's tendency to form insoluble silver bromide crystals, which are not believed to be biologically active in aqueous environments.

However, it has been discovered that if silver forms a complex with hydantoins, the silver will remain soluble to a higher degree thereby retaining the silver's antimicrobial activity. - Joseph A King, King Technology.

Patent

Silver-based cartridges are not compatible with bromine sanitizers because of the insolubility of silver bromide.

Reference

Also note that all of the other silver based systems, such as Nature², specify that their system is not compatible with bromine.

Nature2 Spa Compatibility

Attention: Not to be used with product containing bromine, sodium bromide, or biguanides. If these products are being used, be sure to drain and refill the spa with fresh water..

http://www.nature2.com/files/TL2700_Nature2_Spa_Owners_Manual.pdf

Mineral/Vision NOT compatible with Bromine. Results in Silver Bromide forming in your tub.

http://www.poolmartspas.com/spa_know.htm

Thermo Spas developed Thermo Clear; a two-step, mineral-based system that is extremely easy to use and is compatible with all hot tub brands.

Disadvantages: Not compatible with bromine

http://www.thermospas.com/hot-tub-chemicals.html

[waterbear]

One of the problems associated with the use of silver for killing microorganisms is that silver has a tendency to complex with other compounds and become increasingly insoluble thereby reducing the effective microorganisms killing ability of the silver.

For example, it would not be anticipated that silver chloride when used in combination with sodium bromide would be an effective prolong disinfectant system because of the combination's tendency to form insoluble silver bromide crystals, which are not believed to be biologically active in aqueous environments.

However, it has been discovered that if silver forms a complex with hydantoins, the silver will remain soluble to a higher degree thereby retaining the silver's antimicrobial activity. - Joseph A King, King Technology.

Patent

Silver-based cartridges are not compatible with bromine sanitizers because of the insolubility of silver bromide.

Reference

Also note that all of the other silver based systems, such as Nature², specify that their system is not compatible with bromine.

Nature2 Spa Compatibility

Attention: Not to be used with product containing bromine, sodium bromide, or biguanides. If these products are being used, be sure to drain and refill the spa with fresh water..

http://www.nature2.c...ners_Manual.pdf

Mineral/Vision NOT compatible with Bromine. Results in Silver Bromide forming in your tub.

http://www.poolmarts...om/spa_know.htm

Thermo Spas developed Thermo Clear; a two-step, mineral-based system that is extremely easy to use and is compatible with all hot tub brands.

Disadvantages: Not compatible with bromine

http://www.thermospa...-chemicals.html

You are preachin' to the choir, guy! However, King Technology (SpaFrog and PoolFrog) do ( or at least did) have EPA approval for their silver/bromine spa system at reduced bromine levels (they claim as low as 1 ppm). I could not find any references on their current website but it has been there in the past about their system being the only one EPA approved for bromine. Interesting that they make no reference that this must be a bromine system using DBDMH and not a simple two step for it to work. It it also interesting that they used DCDMH to supply chlorine and not bromine when testing this as outlined in the original patent by them. However, the original spafrog did consist of a bromine tab floater/"mineral" (I REALLY hate that marketing term) cartridge combo.

Could we have a case of 'smoke and mirrors snake oil" here?

[njmurvin]

One of the problems associated with the use of silver for killing microorganisms is that silver has a tendency to complex with other compounds and become increasingly insoluble thereby reducing the effective microorganisms killing ability of the silver.

For example, it would not be anticipated that silver chloride when used in combination with sodium bromide would be an effective prolong disinfectant system because of the combination's tendency to form insoluble silver bromide crystals, which are not believed to be biologically active in aqueous environments.

However, it has been discovered that if silver forms a complex with hydantoins, the silver will remain soluble to a higher degree thereby retaining the silver's antimicrobial activity. - Joseph A King, King Technology.

Patent

Silver-based cartridges are not compatible with bromine sanitizers because of the insolubility of silver bromide.

Reference

Also note that all of the other silver based systems, such as Nature², specify that their system is not compatible with bromine.

Nature2 Spa Compatibility

Attention: Not to be used with product containing bromine, sodium bromide, or biguanides. If these products are being used, be sure to drain and refill the spa with fresh water..

http://www.nature2.c...ners_Manual.pdf

Mineral/Vision NOT compatible with Bromine. Results in Silver Bromide forming in your tub.

http://www.poolmarts...om/spa_know.htm

Thermo Spas developed Thermo Clear; a two-step, mineral-based system that is extremely easy to use and is compatible with all hot tub brands.

Disadvantages: Not compatible with bromine

http://www.thermospa...-chemicals.html

You are preachin' to the choir, guy! However, King Technology (SpaFrog and PoolFrog) do ( or at least did) have EPA approval for their silver/bromine spa system at reduced bromine levels (they claim as low as 1 ppm). I could not find any references on their current website but it has been there in the past about their system being the only one EPA approved for bromine. Interesting that they make no reference that this must be a bromine system using DBDMH and not a simple two step for it to work as outlined in the original patent by them. However, the original spafrog did consist of a bromine tab floater/"mineral" (I REALLY hate that marketing term) cartridge combo.

So, are you guys suggesting that I abandon the Spa Frog (combo silver/bromine floater) and just go with some kind of bromine-only floater? My bromine levels have been testing significantly higher than 1ppm. I only use the frog because it came with the spa and was recommended by Marquis.

[waterbear]

Here you go! Read this!

[quantumchromodynamics]

One of the difficulties is that when bromine is used in conjunction with a metal ion the metal ion and the bromine interact to reduce the effectiveness of the metal ion in killing microorganisms, oftentimes to a level that renders the metal ion concentration ineffective to kill microorganisms, thus negating the reason for using the two biocides.

However, when two or more biocides or disinfectants such as a metal ion disinfectant is used in conjunction with bromine the level of metal ions in the water can be adversely affected so that the level of metal ions becomes insufficient to provide for effective control of microorganisms in the body of water thus rendering the combination impractical.

Thus, the advantage of having metal ions in combination with bromine for use in treating a body is water is lost since the bromine can reduce the metal ion concentration in the water to levels that are ineffective to rid the body of water of microorganisms that normally would be killed by the presence of the metal ions.

Calculations reveal that when metal ions and bromine are combined the bromine limits the available metal ions in the body of water to levels that are ineffective to control the microorganisms in the body of water.

The level of silver ions in the spa was measured weekly. It was found that the level of silver ions in the spa ranged from about 1-3 ppb during the test. The pH was maintained in the range of 7.24 to 7.99 during the test.

Patent

The above reference patent specifies that a chelating agent is needed for the silver to be effective.

a chelating agent selected from the group consisting of 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5 dimethylhydantion, 1,3 dichloro-5,5 dimethylhydantion, 1,3 dibromo-55 dimethylhydantion, anthranilate, saccharinate and sulfadiazine into the body of water to maintain the effectiveness of the silver ions in killing microorganisms.

However, if the silver is chelated, then I don't think that it will be active.

Another patent

You could probably get EPA approval for a sand and bromine system because the bromine is doing all of the work.

It is also important to note that the highest possible concentration of silver is limited by the bromide ion concentration. For example, if the bromide ion concentration were only 1 ppm, then the silver ion concentration could be maintained at about 4.65 ppb (parts per billion). However, if one were to add sodium bromide initially, then the bromide ion concentration would be much higher and would significantly limit the silver concentration.

In their patent, they do not initially add sodium bromide to the water. That would allow them to maintain the 1 to 3 ppb levels that they claim. However, once the bromide levels increased, the silver ion concentration would drop significantly.

[njmurvin]

Here you go! Read this!

LOL - That's how I got started on all of this. I plan to follow the bromine plan. I just don't want to waste money on replacing the frog silver cartridges if they're not doing any good. Then, there's the ozonator....

[waterbear]

Here you go! Read this!

LOL - That's how I got started on all of this. I plan to follow the bromine plan. I just don't want to waste money on replacing the frog silver cartridges if they're not doing any good. Then, there's the ozonator....

If you notice I make no mention of spafrogs or ozone in that post.

However, ozone is of use in a bromine system since it oxidizes the bromide bank into hypobromous acid and does help to maintain the bromine level. You can't run a lower bromine level with the ozone but you will probably have a more constant level and you will not need to open the floater as much to maintain the bromine levels. Only downside is that ozone tends to over-oxidize the bromide into non renewable bromate. IMHO, if you already have it nothing wrong with using it. Ozone actually works a lot better with bromine than chlorine since it tends to fight against chlorine but it activates bromine.